What makes a bad Salsa band?

[Smejmoon]

Skipping ghost notes is reasonable in live situation unless it's acoustic gig. Nobody will hear them, they will just add more noise to the mix.
I think it's always better to have less people, but tight, than more and mushy. But people like that wall of sound effect. It's impressive, that's for sure. But then better get 5 trombones.

I'm actually curious about how people with better hearing than mine would arrange salsa bands with regards to tightness. I'm always doubting myself, when something sounds weird, I might not understand some cultural peculiarity or something.

In acoustic/live situation usually more people generate more presence and energy which overshadows musical qualities.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Watch out with that, percussion players have evolved, I have seen incredible "monsters" in that aspect. No idea how they do all what they do with 2 hands. Skipping the ghost notes of the tumbadora is part of it, of course.

A very good musician is going to be a pleasure to listen to regardless of what combination of instruments they choose it's true, but I'd still much rather hear a percussionist play 1 instrument. Even if there's only 1 percussionist in the band. Although any Latin band larger than 5 members needs 2 people on percussion minimum.

 

[DJ Yuca]

I'm always doubting myself, when something sounds weird, I might not understand some cultural peculiarity or something.

Any examples of what you mean? I.e. that have been recorded.

 

[DJ Yuca]

No idea how they do all what they do with 2 hands. Skipping the ghost notes of the tumbadora is part of it, of course.

By ghost notes are you referring to all the notes played by the non-dominant hand? I don't think those are ghost notes as they're supposed to be heard. In fact it's considered a mistake if they're played quietly.

Also when I've seen tumbao demod on 1 hand, it included the beats usually played by the non-dominant hand.

But I could be misunderstanding you.

 

[Smejmoon]

Any examples of what you mean? I.e. that have been recorded.

I don't mean in recordings. In recordings you do until you get it right, or best player often records all parts, or studio musician fixes it. Also they do samples in computer nowadays where playing is just a trigger.

Also in recordings you isolate players from each other, etc.

But live from all big timba bands I've heard, only Manolito and Calle Real didn't sound like garbage. Salsa bands are usually better, but in salsa there are relatively less that can go wrong. It's simpler music.

I've been thinking that it's also problem of not good enough sound engineer, but if you have 10+ members, it's time to bring your own sound engineer. You can't expect someone who doesn't have experience with these styles where there is a lot of percussion to do good sound, it's much harder.

 

[Smejmoon]

By ghost notes are you referring to all the notes played by the non-dominant hand? I don't think those are ghost notes as they're supposed to be heard. In fact it's considered a mistake if they're played quietly.

Also when I've seen tumbao demod on 1 hand, it included the beats usually played by the non-dominant hand.

But I could be misunderstanding you.

Realistically only open, slap and bass are heard, unless other instruments lay off.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Realistically only open, slap and bass are heard, unless other instruments lay off.

You might be right. But I know that if the conguero's non-dominant hand is quiet then they won’t last long in any decent band. And (I think) if they do a one-handed tumbao they'll be playing the notes from both hands.

 

[Smejmoon]

You might be right. But I know that if the conguero's non-dominant hand is quiet then they won’t last long in any decent band. And (I think) if they do a one-handed tumbao they'll be playing the notes from both hands.

That's why there are setups with congas+bongos+hand splashes up to this (and these guys are usually in the transparent box to make micing possible): https://www.congachops.com/blog-articles/2020/6/18/ricky-martin-tour-percussion-rig

 

[Smejmoon]

Another thing that happens is when you bring bunch of congas + bongos to the gig, you tune them all to match each other and start playing simple melodies. Role starts shifting.

 

[DJ Yuca]

That's why there are setups with congas+bongos+hand splashes up to this (and these guys are usually in the transparent box to make micing possible): https://www.congachops.com/blog-articles/2020/6/18/ricky-martin-tour-percussion-rig

That's in a Latin pop context so, for me, it makes more sense than it would in a salsa context. Although I'm also surprised Ricky Martin didn't want more than one percussionist.

It reminded me that the great Cándido was doing all this back in the 50s i.e. playing congas with one or more other percussion instrument:

Sounds like on the congas he's playing 1, 2 and 3, 4 and. So some but not all of the beats played by the non-dominant hand, as well, of course, as the slap and double open.

I think he also used to do congas with one hand and bongo with the other. But if I had the choice, I'd rather hear him on congas and some other brilliant player on bongos.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Another thing that happens is when you bring bunch of congas + bongos to the gig, you tune them all to match each other and start playing simple melodies. Role starts shifting.

You can also play melodies with 3 congas, as shown in the above vid.

 

[Smejmoon]

That's in a Latin pop context so, for me, it makes more sense than it would in a salsa context. Although I'm also surprised Ricky Martin didn't want more than one percussionist.

All I know about Ricky Martin is that he had a song in Shreck movie. The article I linked explains what person who plays conga with just one hand (or even sticks) do with their free hand.

It doesn't mention pedals. There's evolution as well. Clave gets replaced with jam block. Jamblocks/cowbels get attached to the pedals. New musical opportunities.

 

[DJ Yuca]

All I know about Ricky Martin is that he had a song in Shreck movie.

One of the most successful Latin pop artists ever. But his greatest achievement was inspiring the following:

It doesn't mention pedals. There's evolution as well. Clave gets replaced with jam block. Jamblocks/cowbels get attached to the pedals. New musical opportunities.

It's evolution, mostly inspired by groups having smaller budgets so not being able to afford more than 1 percussionist. It's all down to personal taste at the end of the day - personally I think the old school flavour of one guy with 2 congas is unbeatable. Someone else on timbales or bongos, or better yet a timbalero and a bongocero. But 1 musician mixing it up can also be agreeable.

That's in a Latin pop context so, for me, it makes more sense than it would in a salsa context. Although I'm also surprised Ricky Martin didn't want more than one percussionist.

If there's also someone on drumkit then it makes sense.

 

[Smejmoon]

Every step of evolution, you gain something you lose something. Kids these days don't use their feet anymore to play conga. I do, but I understand it's mostly for myself.
It's more money to split the less musicians you have in the band. Organizing everything is easier. And if we're talking about tour it ads up to a lot of money and complexity. Small band can avoid sound engineer, manager, driver. Large one will need all that.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Every step of evolution, you gain something you lose something. Kids these days don't use their feet anymore to play conga.

You mean congueros playing a clave or bell with feet used to be commonplace?

I was in a trio in Colombia where the conga player played a bell with his foot. It helped fill the sound out, but it never struck me as particularly old school. Bobby Sanabria plays clave or bell with his foot a lot in his videos, which certainly helps demo how the patterns relate to clave.

 

[DJ Yuca]

It's more money to split the less musicians you have in the band. Organizing everything is easier. And if we're talking about tour it ads up to a lot of money and complexity. Small band can avoid sound engineer, manager, driver. Large one will need all that.

Definitely. For this reason whenever I've tried to get a band going I've looked at starting a quartet or quintet, with one of the singers on hand percussion and me on bongos and occasional güiro. But I can understand why someone might think that line-up would sound better with someone playing a mix of percussion instead.

Para gustos hay colores.

 

[Smejmoon]

You mean congueros playing a clave or bell with feet used to be commonplace?

I was in a trio in Colombia where the conga player played a bell with his foot. It helped fill the sound out, but it never struck me as particularly old school. Bobby Sanabria plays clave or bell with his foot a lot in his videos, which certainly helps demo how the patterns relate to clave.

I mean lifting and tilting the drum to change sound.

But also with hands there are various techniques to elicit different sounds.

 

[DJ Yuca]

I mean lifting and tilting the drum to change sound.

Got you. Isn't that more the legs, particularly the knees, than feet? I was taught to tilt the drum all the time to improve the sound.

Is lifting the drum less common nowadays than in the past? No idea but if so, I wonder if it's because in the past congueros would have 1 or 2 drums, whereas nowadays even just 2 drums is old school. Less drums means more motivation to get different sounds from each one.

On saying that, I assume that any conguero today who is serious about their playing has learnt to lift the drum. Even if it's a technique they rarely use.

But also with hands there are various techniques to elicit different sounds.

That's what playing congas - and almost all other instruments - involves.

Do you have any recordings of your playing? Would love to hear you. I imagine your fascination with the music helps inspire you to get a good sound.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Sounds like on the congas he's playing 1, 2 and 3, 4 and. So some but not all of the beats played by the non-dominant hand, as well, of course, as the slap and double open.

That's way off, although he is playing the double open. Once I'm 100% sure what he is actually playing I will post it. But it definitely isn't what I wrote above.

 

[DJ Yuca]

That's Cándido's 1 hand tumbao for cha cha cha, which was probably different to the tumbao he used for mambos, guarachas etc. Here's Johnny Conga (who learnt back in the 50s and knew Mongo and many other greats) showing a 1 hand version of the standard marcha/tumbao:

Leaving the other hand to do whatever the player wishes. Switching between bongos on a stand and bell on a stand would be one option.

Note that, as a seasoned pro, his heel and tips are very powerful, it's not just the slaps and opens.