We're Doomed!! (Question for Pro's)

[hyh]

Its also worth noting, that most salsa " teachers ?" have little or no formal dance training.

Not having formal training is one loss, rejecting additional training is what puzzles me the most. I don't understand why those in the salsa industry feel that their arrival at the "teacher" status means that they can no longer take classes. I find that in other dance forms you will find teachers readily taking the classes of those in their own field. It's an honor to be able to teach a class, and have others willing to learn from you, but that doesn't mean that you know everything. I find myself eating humble pie each time I attend an event and take someone's workshop. I learn more about teaching, about an explanation, or an interpretation of a move that I can use to improve on my own classes. It also puts me back into the student mode where I am forced to see things through the eyes of those that take classes with me.

Many people do reach a point where they think they know everything they should know and that they must be right and others wrong (in all things Salsa) - the "arrival" at the teacher status would be one of those points but some people don't need to become a teacher to have such attitude. Heck - I think I'm right most of the time.

disclosures -- I am not a Salsa teacher, am not taking classes right now, and don't expect to take classes anytime soon, but have no doubt some classes would be quite useful.

A question. What is a formal dance training anyway? Or put it another way, is taking something like Ballet class by definition formal dance training while taking Salsa class by definition is not a formal dance training? Is it about getting university credits? Or is it like "experts" know what is and what isn't by looking at it?

 

[shaka]

A question. What is a formal dance training anyway? Or put it another way, is taking something like Ballet class by definition formal dance training while taking Salsa class by definition is not a formal dance training? Is it about getting university credits? Or is it like "experts" know what is and what isn't by looking at it?

A ballet class would be a great example of formal dance training, as most dances that people want to watch are going to be taught/explained from the foundation of ballet. As an example, I was in a hip hop class that the instructor explained:
"OK, this next step we're going to walk forward with a swagger, releve, outside left turn then finish turned in with a pose, kick-ball change, pas de buree and then right leg passe with a lean to it when the bass drops. The passe is goign to be grimy though, and dont let me see blades, I want thug on the hands"
Someone with formal dance training would be able to take that explanation and do the moves. Someone without would be trying to learn the sequence with right/left/lift/ etc. Salsa has it's own language of partnerwork, however that language has been largely developed though the ballroom world, in terms of open and closed positions, break steps, posture, frame etc. Someone with dance training can see the holes in someone w/o, while someone without generally can get as far as "it looks better when _that_ guy does it, I don't know why though" The good news is that it's all learnable. The bad news is that most salsa instructors try to figure it out rather than take the logical steps towards learning it. Not speaking from a mountaintop here, I'm quite guilty of the same things. I'd been teaching for years before I took a formal class in another genre and I was trying to figure out why everythign was in French.
sGB

 

[terence]

A question. What is a formal dance training anyway?

Or put it another way, is taking something like Ballet class by definition formal dance training while taking Salsa class by definition is not a formal dance training?

As relates to PARTNERSHIP genres.. the dynamics, and technical applications may differ from genre to genre.. BUT.. the very foundation of " dance " is controlled by 3 aspects

Muscle control.. Balance control ..and Timing control..

Knowing the hows , where , why and when to implement them, is what is learned thru formal training, NOT by accident !.. and, I,m not even going to get into the Musical side of teaching; that, on its own is a book and verse !

Ballet, incidentally, is NOT a P/ship dance in the truest since.. it actually creates a lot of undesirable techniques forgeign to this ( and other ) genres.

As to taking a Class in Salsa..Is it formal ?.. that depends upon who is giving it..

I recently did a W/shop, 2 weeks ago ( with dancers/ teacher, who had trained at congresses and at local areas ), they were completely unaware of basic concepts and voluntered that they had never been told or introduced to the foundation work I presented ( And.I do mean basic fudamentals ).

 

[la_gringa]

I have to say I've seen a veritable explosion of salsa freaks taking non-salsa dance classes in the last year/two years - it's practically de rigeur at this point for people with serious salsa aspirations to infuse their busy dance week with other classes taught at a much higher level, by professionals. (The astounding availability of prof classes in NYC begs for this diversification.)

The content of the other work varies widely, but definitely there's a concentration on non-partnerwork styles - jazz (lots of variations thereof) and Dunham, with plenty of people also doing 'regular' ballet.

 

[la_gringa]

It's too bad they don't also get professional level partnerwork training.

 

[terence]

I have to say I've seen a veritable explosion of salsa freaks taking non-salsa dance classes in the last year/two years -


The content of the other work varies widely, but definitely there's a concentration on non-partnerwork styles

The 2 most beneficial dances that will directly impact " latin ", are W.C. Swing and T/ Arg.. both for different reasons..

 

[la_gringa]

Interesting. Why's that?

 

[terence]

Interesting. Why's that?

WCS develops a varied musicality, possibly more than any of the other genres and dances that I teach ( most Swing dances have this capability )..

T/ Arg.. for its ability to teach embrace ,and its subtlety of lead . It also, in the more traditional styles, has very distinctive musical changes of pace, requiring instant responses where balance and control are paramount..

You think salsa is tricky ?.. as the man said " you aint seen nothin yet ! "

 

[SnowDancer]

Uh oh. I've been teasing salsa dancers who've gotten into Tango as moving to the 'dark side'. AT almost looks to me like 'anti-salsa', but I've been toying with the idea of giving it a try.

 

[hyh]

subtlety of lead

something along the lines of 1:00-1:05 below.

looks like fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjf9cxU7rI8

<snip>

 

[ptwist]

Not having formal training is one loss, rejecting additional training is what puzzles me the most. I don't understand why those in the salsa industry feel that their arrival at the "teacher" status means that they can no longer take classes. I find that in other dance forms you will find teachers readily taking the classes of those in their own field. It's an honor to be able to teach a class, and have others willing to learn from you, but that doesn't mean that you know everything. I find myself eating humble pie each time I attend an event and take someone's workshop. I learn more about teaching, about an explanation, or an interpretation of a move that I can use to improve on my own classes. It also puts me back into the student mode where I am forced to see things through the eyes of those that take classes with me.

Well said Shaka..... I myself is looking towards becoming an instructor one day but I promised myself to always continue learning from others. I ALWAYS pick something new up in each new class/workshop I take. So much valuable information can be passed from all levels.

I guess it's a culture where if you are considered a teacher and take from elsewhere it's a sign of weakness and traits of an incompetent teacher. I highly disagree. I remember taking an Eddie Torres class in Orlando during the world championship... and I see 2nd place on1 winner Marie and Jose (I think) come in and just take the workshop as well. Really awesome seeing things like that.

 

[terence]

something along the lines of 1:00-1:05 below.

Its difficult to tell if they know each other well..or.. its an impromtu moment..

I dont think that type of " lead " is subtle.. well co ordinated, and very expressive ( a little wild at times ), and not the kind of thing one could/would dance with a stranger .

Irrespective, they are having a great time !!

 

[vata07]

I remember taking an Eddie Torres class in Orlando during the world championship... and I see 2nd place on1 winner Marie and Jose (I think) come in and just take the workshop as well. Really awesome seeing things like that.

i'm guessing you mean marie-jose and roberto of montreal.

 

[t0mt0m]

Just to jump back to the discussion about videotaping with permission, etc -
Maybe noting what happened with The Electric Slide?
news.cnet.com/2100-1030_3-6156021.html

Some may find it odd that a dance could be copyrightable, of course. But according to Jason Schultz, a staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, dance moves can definitely be protected under copyright law.

"You can copyright the choreography for dances," said Schultz, "and then enforce the copyright against anyone who publicly performs the dance."

Does that mean that everyone who giggles their way through the Electric Slide with the wedding videographer shooting away is violating copyright? No, but the videographer could be at risk. But Schultz said he believes Silver's claims against Machulis and others who have posted videos on YouTube may be questionable.

"Someone who performs it noncommercially or adds their own artistic flair to the dance has a pretty good fair-use argument that their performance is noninfringing," Schultz said.

Copyright may well only apply to the original recording too. If you do the steps, or mix them up, to remind you what they were after the fact for example -

o does doing the Electric Slide badly protect you from charges of copyright violation? To Schultz, an incorrect version of the dance may still be covered under copyright law as a derivative of the original, but it depends on the context. In the case of Machulis' video, the missteps of the dance probably mean a loss of Silver's rights.

"Slight variations (of the original) are arguably derivative," said Schultz, "but something else, like doing (a dance) out of sequence, you're probably not even getting close to his copyright."

A not for profit video recording of someone recreating a pattern/moves from a lesson after the lesson has been done, and having only themselves, and not the instructor in shot - I guess what's wrong with that? Respecting the rights within a private building, by an instructor etc - another matter.

For a medium that's potentially very useful, it does have its drawbacks.

 

[opm1s6]

Seriously people need to move on with the time.

Everything is going to end up on Youtube whether you like it or not. This reminds me of fruitless battle the music industry has been waging to protect their music bundling stuff (10 bad songs to sell 2 good songs) on CDs while people continue to swap, steal, download, etc songs of their choice on the Internet.

The instructor has got paid (hopefully) for giving the lessons at the congress. People tape the workshop to remind themselves of what they learnt. So far so good. Now someone decides to put it on the youtube. So what? Is anyone profiting from it? No. Are less people going to attend the next workshop because they can watch the end of workshop on the youtube? No. Are the instructors going to lose money becaue video went on youtube? No. For the students who paid, is the money they paid to take the workshop or attend the congress going to get devalued? No. Are the instructors offering the some workshop as paid content? Unlikely. Is someone going to watch the video for free and pick up something for free? May be. So what? May be the person who watches of free and tries to pickup will like to attend the workshop when it is in their vicinity.

In earlier days you had to pay to advertise your services. The instructors should think of opportunity to have snippet of their workshop being put on youtube by someone else without costing them money or time as free advertising. It is free publicity. It will get you known. If you are not known, no one will bother to attend your workshop when you are in their city. E.g. to best of my knowledge Magna has never been to SF and many around here probably haven't even heard of her. Only reason I know her and admire her dancing is because of youtube and Internet. I rarely take workshops. But if she were to give one around here, not only would I try to go, but also convince 4-5 of my other friends to take it. Those who never heard her name.

And frankly speaking even if my knowledge is to be my source of income, I don't try to hold that knowledge so close to my chest as to not let someone else gain/learn from it. It is not a zero sum game. As an instructor why shouldn't I (note: I am not an instructor) be delighted that some workshop I did in place x, is later available to be seen by rest of the people anywhere in the world?

If I can get workshops videos from a congress without actually going to the congress, I won't pay for the workshop, thus revenue is lost. It's really that simple. I have over 400 videos in my personal youtube playlists ready and queued with ideas, patterns and styling. There's no doubt that I will not pay for anything I gain from that, and that I probably should have.

 

[Offbeat]

If I can get workshops videos from a congress without actually going to the congress, I won't pay for the workshop, thus revenue is lost. It's really that simple. I have over 400 videos in my personal youtube playlists ready and queued with ideas, patterns and styling. There's no doubt that I will not pay for anything I gain from that, and that I probably should have.

And is that the rationale for banning all and any kind of video taping ? Curious out of those 400 what is the breakdown of the videos that are

1. Simply social dancing caught on camera
2. End of the workshop/class review done for video taping
3. Actual workshops

 

[Smejmoon]

I hope all patterns end up on the youtube and in congress workshops people actually get taught how to dance, instead of to memorizing yet another combo they'll never use on the dance floor.

 

[olamalam]

I hope all patterns end up on the youtube and in congress workshops people actually get taught how to dance, instead of to memorizing yet another combo they'll never use on the dance floor.

It doesnt have to end up on youtube focus on how to dance instead of memorising yet another combo. Just focus on how to dance and don't worry about the combo.