Want more of a 'conversation' and not just 'going through the moves'...

[dancingdan]

Hey everyone,

I'm a pretty good salsa dancer but am wondering how to have more of a 'conversation' with my partner when dancing... I kow quite a few moves, have good timing, etc. but it just seems like I am dancing with myself sometimes - I know there must be little things I can do to make each dance different (I already look the woman in the eyes, smile, maybe say a few words, etc.) but it always seems like I am just leading the same type moves with every woman and except for the fact that every woman's dance style is different (so dancing with each woman feels different) it really seems like I am just going through the motions and not making a 'connection' somehow... I am NOT trying to pick up woman, or want anything sexual... I just want more of a dance 'conversation' instead of just 'going through the moves'

Thanks!

cheers,
Dan

 

[premier]

Well not all followers want to connect with their leader. And I guess it goes the other way around too sometimes. It's a shame, because being there with your partner makes everything work better and so much more pleasant.

That being said, it's not necessarily a matter of wanting to connect. Some people are so into the music they don't have time for their partner. Some people are so concentrated on what they're doing they forget about their partner. These people need to be reminded that salsa is a partner dance or simply develop as dancers

To me it feels quite rude not paying attention to your partner, but I'm sure not everybody sees it that way so I just have to suck it up. It also makes me feel uneasy because there's no way for me gauge if they're enjoying the dance or not.

 

[salsamarty]

You need to be asking better partners. The conversation I'm looking for is for me and my partner to both be talking about the music to each other through dance. It doesn't happen often but it's nice when it does.

 

[GForce85]

Give her some space and play off what she's doing. It's like in an actual conversation where you ask a question/bring up a topic and go from there. Doesn't always work because not every follower is comfortable when they aren't being told what to do at all times, but not everyone is a conversationalist either.

 

[MacMoto]

I'm a pretty good salsa dancer but am wondering how to have more of a 'conversation' with my partner when dancing... I kow quite a few moves, have good timing, etc. but it just seems like I am dancing with myself sometimes - I know there must be little things I can do to make each dance different (I already look the woman in the eyes, smile, maybe say a few words, etc.) but it always seems like I am just leading the same type moves with every woman and except for the fact that every woman's dance style is different (so dancing with each woman feels different) it really seems like I am just going through the motions and not making a 'connection' somehow... I am NOT trying to pick up woman, or want anything sexual... I just want more of a dance 'conversation' instead of just 'going through the moves'

Sounds like it's time for you to start working on your musicality. Instead of just doing moves, work with the music. Let the music frame your dance, reflect the music in your dance and - most importantly - allow the follower to reflect the music in her dance. Respond to what she does. Let her respond to what you do. Hit the breaks together. The best dance conversations I have are always the ones guided by the music.

 

[londongirl]

sorry, you don't say your level or dance style or what your scene is like, so I've written this assuming you are a reasonably experienced cross-body dancer with a relatively diverse scene.

here's a few things that could help make you stand out and connect better.

1. Ask her politely and in a friendly way to dance. If you have seen her dance, give her a compliment if you can do it without sounding sleazy or cheesy! ie " you looked great out there, would you like to dance", "you seem to have so much fun, would you like to dance" - with this you raise the stakes for her to give you a good time too . If you haven't seen her dance, a verbal question, rather than just grabbing her hand, is nice (non-verbal is fine if you are abroad and don't speak the language).

2. All salsa songs start with an intro. If you can't identify it yet, learn to. Then treat it like an intro to getting to know your partner too, rather than rushing into an intense debate (of crazy moves). Start in closed or semi-closed (don't get toooo close, lol) position and just groove gently on the spot, learn to move your partner around in this position, slowly add in some CBLs, or right turns. This is the time to focus on smiling, eye-contact and so on, when your partner is relaxed and can respond without worrying she is gonna miss something in the midst of a pattern frenzy.

3. You can start your moves/patterns after the intro, but remember most salsa songs increase in energy/tension toward the end, so try and pace yourself. This also helps you get to know your partner and ease her into it. Less experienced followers may relax more as a result. And more experienced followers usually prefer simpler stuff because it lets them dance more.

4. If people shine in your scene, learn the places in the music where shines work well. And again, if your follower is the sort that likes to shine, make sure you break for them. Also learn some call and response shines, or mimic your partner (if she doesn't start mimic-ing you), learn to look at your partner during shines (hard especially if you train looking at your feet).

5. Watch out for things like doing a lot of double handed leading which can be restrictive for advanced followers, not letting your partner hit the breaks, not letting CBLs 'run out' ie don't lead another move right after a CBL, but spend a phrase or two grooving/shining with a one-hand connection or similar, etc etc. Probably the best thing here is to get a good follower to critique your dancing, if your ego can handle it. Or some people post social dancing videos down in the video thread and ask for feedback from people on these forums...

6. Which moves on to my next point. if you can handle it, get someone to tell you how dancing with you makes them feel. It might be hard to find someone willing to be honest, and you probably won't like what they say. But it's probably the fastest way to establish if there are any major issues that are preventing a good connection/conversation with your partner (just for example, it could just be you never change your shirt, so she spends the whole dance thinking about how she wishes she never had to touch your back, and so is mentally pushing you away - this is something I have seen/experienced more than once, and the guy just had no idea at all it was an issue).

7. Learn some simple body movement ie shoulder shimmies, body-rolls etc and work out places in your patterns/moves that these would work. Watch some good social dancing you tube videos for inspiration. With good eye-contact you can encourage your partner to interact with you in this. Plus is will help prevent your own boredom trying to add this stuff to your dancing.

8. If you don't already, listen to a lot of salsa music. Listen until you love it. If there are popular songs in your scene, find out what they are and get to know them well. Music is like your ice-breaker with your partner, if you feel it, chances she will start to too. Play games, like trying to hit every break. Try to match your inside turns to twirly bits in the music. If the music gets softer practice going back to closed hold. Again, this will help relieve your boredom and help the follower feel like there is more to the dance than just following your moves.

9. If you haven't already, read some of the old posts on here ie http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/oldies-but-goodies….3109/ I found this stuff really opened my eyes when I was still relatively new

 

[Slowdance]

Hope its ok I put in some comments I have related to the topic. They dont answer the OP but just maybe responses to my comments could help the OP as well.

I have some issues when it comes to musicality. These issues include:

1) I hear the changes and hits and breaks in the song, but they dont particularly inspire me to react. At least not much. I enjoy these aspects of the song, and I avoid doing a long flashy pattern to a slow section or at a point where I know a break or change the flow or make the move awkward. But beyond that, music is less likely to make me react with a matching pattern. I may not feel inclined to hit a break. When percussion instruments do exciting things, I dont especially want to shine or react to that. I could, but I would be doing it because I am "supposed to".

Instead, I react to tempo changes and mood changes but mainly through the singing or through an instrument that is taking the role of a voice. A plaintive cry in the voice or some other change will definitely cause me to react, but usually in a way that relates to partner position. Maybe I make a closer connection to my partner, or maybe I do something that makes me feel like we are connected but free, like a spot turn.

But I am just not inspired in the same ways others are, even when reacting to the same part of the music, because I am responding for a different reason.

2) when I do sense a moment where I can react, I struggle with what to do if the music is emotionally quiet. Other than keeping things mellow, I feel like I am missing having a repertoire for slower moments. Right now I stick to putting myself in a chill mode and keeping things calm but thats literally all I have in my wheelhouse currently.

3) when i sense my partner wants to shine, I let them, but I dont have skill here either. I plan to work on it but again, this is not what inspires me, and brussel sprouts are a taste I may never acquire. So to speak. I appreciate shines but its not me. I would feel fake ("not me") even with mastery. I dont know what to do about this.

Maybe if you have suggestions these may help the OP also. I feel this is sorta in the same direction/topic. Hoping to add to the thread, not hijack!

Thanks!

 

[timberamayor]

Hope its ok I put in some comments I have related to the topic. They dont answer the OP but just maybe responses to my comments could help the OP as well.

I have some issues when it comes to musicality. These issues include:

1) I hear the changes and hits and breaks in the song, but they dont particularly inspire me to react. At least not much. I enjoy these aspects of the song, and I avoid doing a long flashy pattern to a slow section or at a point where I know a break or change the flow or make the move awkward. But beyond that, music is less likely to make me react with a matching pattern. I may not feel inclined to hit a break. When percussion instruments do exciting things, I dont especially want to shine or react to that. I could, but I would be doing it because I am "supposed to".

Instead, I react to tempo changes and mood changes but mainly through the singing or through an instrument that is taking the role of a voice. A plaintive cry in the voice or some other change will definitely cause me to react, but usually in a way that relates to partner position. Maybe I make a closer connection to my partner, or maybe I do something that makes me feel like we are connected but free, like a spot turn.

But I am just not inspired in the same ways others are, even when reacting to the same part of the music, because I am responding for a different reason.

2) when I do sense a moment where I can react, I struggle with what to do if the music is emotionally quiet. Other than keeping things mellow, I feel like I am missing having a repertoire for slower moments. Right now I stick to putting myself in a chill mode and keeping things calm but thats literally all I have in my wheelhouse currently.

3) when i sense my partner wants to shine, I let them, but I dont have skill here either. I plan to work on it but again, this is not what inspires me, and brussel sprouts are a taste I may never acquire. So to speak. I appreciate shines but its not me. I would feel fake ("not me") even with mastery. I dont know what to do about this.

Maybe if you have suggestions these may help the OP also. I feel this is sorta in the same direction/topic. Hoping to add to the thread, not hijack!

Thanks!

Here is my "Michelle Standard Recommendation" - take some rumba classes, especially guaguancó in terms of working on partner connection.

1. Guaguancó is a great way to really develop a habit of playful interaction between partners. It is flirty and fun and a constantly improvised dance.
2. Rumba will improve ones body motion in general. I think many of us who come form an Anglo-saxon background are almost uncomfortable in our own bodies and rumba is a great way to become friends with all kinds of muscles and movements you are not used to
3. And slowdance, maybe you aren't particularly interested in changing things, but you said the percussion stuff doesn't really move you in the area of musicality. Perhaps rumba would give yo that "Ah ha!" moment when you might begin to get a better feel or appreciation of the percussion changes since it is only percussion and vocals.

Now I just need to take my own advice. My rumba is very poor still.

 

[Slowdance]

I have done some ballroom rumba, but not much. Latin motion, rotating box, proper frame and movement, a few simple figures. Thats it.

Also just to clarify, percussion does move me, but more internally / intellectually. It doesnt physically provoke a response, except to try to do percussion myself. I have wanted to play percussion my whole life but I never did. I play guitar, and a wee bit of pennywhistle.

Anyway, I should take some more rumba. I live in such a small location that I will probably just get ballroom rumba without the style you mentioned. Heck its hard enough to find a teacher unless I can bring a female partner interested in ballroom (to take as a duo). Its just not a common interest.

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it!

 

[timberamayor]

I have done some ballroom rumba, but not much. Latin motion, rotating box, proper frame and movement, a few simple figures. Thats it.

Also just to clarify, percussion does move me, but more internally / intellectually. It doesnt physically provoke a response, except to try to do percussion myself. I have wanted to play percussion my whole life but I never did. I play guitar, and a wee bit of pennywhistle.

Anyway, I should take some more rumba. I live in such a small location that I will probably just get ballroom rumba without the style you mentioned. Heck its hard enough to find a teacher unless I can bring a female partner interested in ballroom (to take as a duo). Its just not a common interest.

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it!

Well for the type of stuff I had in mind I was thinking afro-cuban. I don't think ballroom is much help in terms of moving to percussion LOL. I could be wrong of course.

I know this isn't your style of dance or music, but what I love about it is that they are just playing the entire time and laughing and when they mess up (which they do) they just keep laughing and dancing. They mix in a lot of rumba as well as other afro-cuban stuff as well. this is the type of partner connection that is so much fun but doesn't happen all the time and also IMO has a lot to do with both people really enjoying the music and there is always an element of personal chemistry as to how two people feel about the same thing. Always great when you find one of those partners that feels the same sort of reaction to the music as you do.

I love how she stops and looks at her watch around 2:30 when he's all getting into his solo stuff there. But it's also just play acting. Totally funn

 

[Slowdance]

That looks awesome, but I wouldnt recognize it as rumba if you didnt tell me. Assuming (and I do) that afro-Cuban rumba came first, I wish ballroom "rumba" had some other name.

Anyway, while that looks fun for the people dancing it, I cant really envision myself doing that. Not because I couldnt, but because that falls into the "music doesnt move me that way" category. But I would take classes for sure. I want to branch out.

I wonder if people teach that though? I mean in a way that would work for me.

Lots of times I hear people say, for more passionate/kinetic dance styles, that you cant teach it or they wouldnt know how because its all based on feel. I dont quite agree. But I suspect that people who dance like that in the video do not WANT to analyze it and break it down into mechanical bits. That is total speculation on my part, however. I hope I am wrong. I would love that in a teacher. But people sometimes feel like they are unweaving the rainbow. They dont like it.

I can certainly approach dancing from a feel perspective, but I cant LEARN it that way. I am lucky that my timing and rhythm are strong. I am highly musical when playing an instrument, and improvisation is a strong point on an instrument (though I am rusty these last few years or so). But for dance, I need explicit things to do, for starters. I need 8-12 explicit things to learn, I need to drill them in, and I need to understand the mechanics. THEN I can feel it and improvise/play based on either analysis or feel.

Some feel, then understand. I understand, then feel. Thats probably why I am still single too. If people dont feel the passion up front, they usually walk. Give me time, I like to take it slow! But I digress.

But I dont know if an afro-Cuban style instructor would put up with me. My salsa teacher near about pulled her hair out because my learning style didnt match her teaching style. But now I am more relaxed and just have a fun social salsa because I went through all the analysis and questions and repetition on things etc. Even though it was as much of a challenge for her as it was for me.

I dont know that I could get a teacher to break down any 3 seconds of the dancing in this video, discuss weight and timing and rotation and transition etc; and then do it again for 10 other spots in this video and then work with me on getting comfortable mixing it into what I do now so that I can start to improvise based off a core of well-understood/felt base moves that we had analyzed together.

I can totally learn that way tho if I can find a teacher willing to suffer through it.

Anyway, I live in Mississippi, so I doubt I could find anyone to teach me that style around here.

Thanks!

 

[salsamarty]

sorry, you don't say your level or dance style or what your scene is like, so I've written this assuming you are a reasonably experienced cross-body dancer with a relatively diverse scene.

here's a few things that could help make you stand out and connect better.

1. Ask her politely and in a friendly way to dance. If you have seen her dance, give her a compliment if you can do it without sounding sleazy or cheesy! ie " you looked great out there, would you like to dance", "you seem to have so much fun, would you like to dance" - with this you raise the stakes for her to give you a good time too . If you haven't seen her dance, a verbal question, rather than just grabbing her hand, is nice (non-verbal is fine if you are abroad and don't speak the language).

2. All salsa songs start with an intro. If you can't identify it yet, learn to. Then treat it like an intro to getting to know your partner too, rather than rushing into an intense debate (of crazy moves). Start in closed or semi-closed (don't get toooo close, lol) position and just groove gently on the spot, learn to move your partner around in this position, slowly add in some CBLs, or right turns. This is the time to focus on smiling, eye-contact and so on, when your partner is relaxed and can respond without worrying she is gonna miss something in the midst of a pattern frenzy.

3. You can start your moves/patterns after the intro, but remember most salsa songs increase in energy/tension toward the end, so try and pace yourself. This also helps you get to know your partner and ease her into it. Less experienced followers may relax more as a result. And more experienced followers usually prefer simpler stuff because it lets them dance more.

4. If people shine in your scene, learn the places in the music where shines work well. And again, if your follower is the sort that likes to shine, make sure you break for them. Also learn some call and response shines, or mimic your partner (if she doesn't start mimic-ing you), learn to look at your partner during shines (hard especially if you train looking at your feet).

5. Watch out for things like doing a lot of double handed leading which can be restrictive for advanced followers, not letting your partner hit the breaks, not letting CBLs 'run out' ie don't lead another move right after a CBL, but spend a phrase or two grooving/shining with a one-hand connection or similar, etc etc. Probably the best thing here is to get a good follower to critique your dancing, if your ego can handle it. Or some people post social dancing videos down in the video thread and ask for feedback from people on these forums...

6. Which moves on to my next point. if you can handle it, get someone to tell you how dancing with you makes them feel. It might be hard to find someone willing to be honest, and you probably won't like what they say. But it's probably the fastest way to establish if there are any major issues that are preventing a good connection/conversation with your partner (just for example, it could just be you never change your shirt, so she spends the whole dance thinking about how she wishes she never had to touch your back, and so is mentally pushing you away - this is something I have seen/experienced more than once, and the guy just had no idea at all it was an issue).

7. Learn some simple body movement ie shoulder shimmies, body-rolls etc and work out places in your patterns/moves that these would work. Watch some good social dancing you tube videos for inspiration. With good eye-contact you can encourage your partner to interact with you in this. Plus is will help prevent your own boredom trying to add this stuff to your dancing.

8. If you don't already, listen to a lot of salsa music. Listen until you love it. If there are popular songs in your scene, find out what they are and get to know them well. Music is like your ice-breaker with your partner, if you feel it, chances she will start to too. Play games, like trying to hit every break. Try to match your inside turns to twirly bits in the music. If the music gets softer practice going back to closed hold. Again, this will help relieve your boredom and help the follower feel like there is more to the dance than just following your moves.

9. If you haven't already, read some of the old posts on here ie http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/oldies-but-goodies….3109/ I found this stuff really opened my eyes when I was still relatively new

Wow. Very thorough and right on the mark.

I would add that if you take recommendations 4 and 7 and 8 you can work on these at home. Listen to lots of music and dance shines, shimmies, rolls, whatever in the privacy of your home until you have confidence in the steps and an understanding of the music. It could be helpful to pick some older music from the 60's & 70's rather than later Salsa Romantica. The older music is more interesting for this exercice.

 

[MMaatttt]

I can certainly approach dancing from a feel perspective, but I cant LEARN it that way. I am lucky that my timing and rhythm are strong. I am highly musical when playing an instrument, and improvisation is a strong point on an instrument (though I am rusty these last few years or so). But for dance, I need explicit things to do, for starters. I need 8-12 explicit things to learn, I need to drill them in, and I need to understand the mechanics. THEN I can feel it and improvise/play based on either analysis or feel.

Some feel, then understand. I understand, then feel. Thats probably why I am still single too. If people dont feel the passion up front, they usually walk. Give me time, I like to take it slow! But I digress.

But I dont know if an afro-Cuban style instructor would put up with me. My salsa teacher near about pulled her hair out because my learning style didnt match her teaching style. But now I am more relaxed and just have a fun social salsa because I went through all the analysis and questions and repetition on things etc. Even though it was as much of a challenge for her as it was for me.

I dont know that I could get a teacher to break down any 3 seconds of the dancing in this video, discuss weight and timing and rotation and transition etc; and then do it again for 10 other spots in this video and then work with me on getting comfortable mixing it into what I do now so that I can start to improvise based off a core of well-understood/felt base moves that we had analyzed together.

I can totally learn that way tho if I can find a teacher willing to suffer through it.

Anyway, I live in Mississippi, so I doubt I could find anyone to teach me that style around here.

Thanks!

I learn in a simalar way to you. I havn't found any teachers who break Rumba down in exactly the way you want, but I have found a good few who will lead you into a simple movement, then slowly layer more movement on top. You need to study those movements, but I think you will find that approch effective. Once you have the foundation, things get easier.

 

[salsamarty]

I can certainly approach dancing from a feel perspective, but I cant LEARN it that way. I am lucky that my timing and rhythm are strong. I am highly musical when playing an instrument, and improvisation is a strong point on an instrument (though I am rusty these last few years or so). But for dance, I need explicit things to do, for starters. I need 8-12 explicit things to learn, I need to drill them in, and I need to understand the mechanics. THEN I can feel it and improvise/play based on either analysis or feel.

I am an analytical learner too. It's tough to synchronize with an intuitive teacher.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

Well for the type of stuff I had in mind I was thinking afro-cuban. I don't think ballroom is much help in terms of moving to percussion LOL. I could be wrong of course.

I know this isn't your style of dance or music, but what I love about it is that they are just playing the entire time and laughing and when they mess up (which they do) they just keep laughing and dancing. They mix in a lot of rumba as well as other afro-cuban stuff as well. this is the type of partner connection that is so much fun but doesn't happen all the time and also IMO has a lot to do with both people really enjoying the music and there is always an element of personal chemistry as to how two people feel about the same thing. Always great when you find one of those partners that feels the same sort of reaction to the music as you do.

I love how she stops and looks at her watch around 2:30 when he's all getting into his solo stuff there. But it's also just play acting. Totally funn

Absolutely love it. Is that Mayito singing? For this is why I love this genre so much, you get to let your self go and have fun and most of the time your partner will respond!!!!!

 

[tallpaul]

3) when i sense my partner wants to shine, I let them, but I dont have skill here either. I plan to work on it but again, this is not what inspires me, and brussel sprouts are a taste I may never acquire. So to speak. I appreciate shines but its not me. I would feel fake ("not me") even with mastery. I dont know what to do about this.

I wonder is this partly to do with what you mean by "shines"? Some people think that "shines" are a complicated dance that people do by themselves. (Maybe a complicated beautiful dance, like ballet or something).

Other people see "shines" as "grooving to the music" or "letting go of your partners hands and mucking about to the music". I certainly do - would viewing shines this way help?

So then if you feel that your partner wants to do shines at a certain moment in the song, then you can let go (or lead her into a free turn or something), and while she does her thing, you could just muck about on the spot for a bit - doing some really simple "steps" like back basics, Suzy Qs, Mambo toe-taps or whatever - whilst looking at her at the same time. Her "mucking about" may be fancier than yours, but that's okay. (She probably practices it more than you do). The important thing is that you have fun with whatever you're doing at that point.

Does that help?

(I would think that Michelle's suggestion of Afro-Cuban Rumba is good as well - but it depends how hard it is for you to find a good teacher).

2) when I do sense a moment where I can react, I struggle with what to do if the music is emotionally quiet. Other than keeping things mellow, I feel like I am missing having a repertoire for slower moments. Right now I stick to putting myself in a chill mode and keeping things calm but thats literally all I have in my wheelhouse currently.

That's okay - at least you've noticed the emotional mood of the music, even if you don't know how to express it yet.

One thing I think is good to do is to watch other people on the dance floor - and see who inspires you. (Men don't do this enough, in my opinion). If you see other people who you think are dancing in a way that fits the music, then it might inspire you to do something similar yourself. (Even you do it in a way that looks more like you than them). This might be a good way of discovering ways of reflecting "subtle" moods in the music - "hey, those guys are dancing in a 'cool'/'romantic'/'silly' way, I wonder if I could dance like that?"

 

[tallpaul]

Here's a video I saw a few years back really inspired me to do a few more shines when social dancing:

In my opinion, there is very little that these two are doing that is particularly "complicated". But their musicality is fantastic, and they're doing some serious mucking about to the music!

 

[timberamayor]

Absolutely love it. Is that Mayito singing? For this is why I love this genre so much, you get to let your self go and have fun and most of the time your partner will respond!!!!!

Yeah that's Mayito. Lele Sr. did the first version. they are each good in their own way, but I'm a big Mayito fan.

 

[Slowdance]

Tallpaul,

I wonder is this partly to do with what you mean by "shines"? Some people think that "shines" are a complicated dance that people do by themselves. (Maybe a complicated beautiful dance, like ballet or something).

Other people see "shines" as "grooving to the music" or "letting go of your partners hands and mucking about to the music". I certainly do - would viewing shines this way help?

I guess I can see "shines" as both, but more the former. I view shines as more formalized steps or choreographed steps. Now, with any skill, once you are good, you can improvise choreography and/or interact / react with the partner and break out parts and add new things on the fly. Which makes them a more practiced way to "muck about" I suppose.

But you see, structured or improvised or done just by letting go or by feel, "shines" or "mucking about" aren't things I enjoy or aspire to for myself. I think I will get benefit from being able to understand and do both. And I believe that if I dont do these things, people will not like to dance with me because I will be missing something they consider vital (but that I will always consider artificial to me because I dont find inspiration in such things, aside from respecting the results in others).

So then if you feel that your partner wants to do shines at a certain moment in the song, then you can let go (or lead her into a free turn or something), and while she does her thing, you could just muck about on the spot for a bit - doing some really simple "steps" like back basics, Suzy Qs, Mambo toe-taps or whatever - whilst looking at her at the same time. Her "mucking about" may be fancier than yours, but that's okay. (She probably practices it more than you do). The important thing is that you have fun with whatever you're doing at that point.

I dont know that I know what a back basic is. Not by name anyway. Same for Mambo toe-taps. I learned a Suzy-Q once, or started to, and it didn't seem hard, but it seemed artificial. Music doesn't inspire me to do that. And then a dance friend of mine saw me practicing that and kinda gave me the "pffft ... Suzy Q, whatever" because she wasn't impressed. I wasnt trying to impress, however. I was off in the corner away from everyone, on a class night, but it did sort of kill my enthusiasm, and of course the fact that I felt the whole time that it wasnt something that I would naturally want to do, well I stopped working on the Suzy Q.

But basically when I let a lady shine, I just do my basic, or a free single or double turn, or maybe turn my body sideways to her in the slot and then do a side-to-side basic with leg crosses, maintaining eye contact while going towards her and away etc, and then maybe I will do some orbiting walk stuff before picking her back up again. That actually feels natural to me. The other type stuff people do isnt something I would feel inspired to do even if it was effortless.

And if I am really honest, eye-contact and smiling are things I do more because I have to, not because I want or or because its natural for me. If I dont smile and make some eye contact, I will seem like a robot or a creeper. But when I experience joy or I am having fun, eye contact and smiling aren't a natural reaction for me. It isnt how I process connectedness or happiness. But I do these things so as to not seem weird. And it works well enough. But to me, joy and connection are about rhythm, contact points, feeling movements and interactions directly.

Anyway, I still feel that I should probably learn other stuff, just because it will help my dance overall, and will let me fit in socially in a scene where I'm expected to want to shine. And I try to keep doing the stuff I dont necessarily enjoy because it makes me more well-rounded and lets me fit into a dance scene more.

One thing I think is good to do is to watch other people on the dance floor - and see who inspires you. (Men don't do this enough, in my opinion). If you see other people who you think are dancing in a way that fits the music, then it might inspire you to do something similar yourself. (Even you do it in a way that looks more like you than them). This might be a good way of discovering ways of reflecting "subtle" moods in the music - "hey, those guys are dancing in a 'cool'/'romantic'/'silly' way, I wonder if I could dance like that?"

I find people impressive, maybe even inspiring. But when I am moved or inspired, I tend to NOT want to do shines or mucking about. Rather, I am more likely to want to get closer to my partner like in a closed position and do simple moves together where there is a connection. Usually the closer to a direct connection with a simple movement that I am, the more fun I am having. But that bores people. I used to pride myself on a very simple and heartfelt bachata basic. I even get compliments from local Latinos sometimes, guys and gals. But when I've gone to a congress or two, I could tell people were a bit bored. I even had one lady walk away half way through a bachata that I though was going fine. But thats the only time thats ever happened to me.

So I guess I find some tension / conflict in what I want to do (keep it simple, have a connection, throw in a pattern or two that fits the mood of the music from time to time) and what many people seem to want to do (lots of turns, impressive patterns, lots of singing, lots of disconnected but interactive playing and/or shines).

But I still want to understand and do these things because it challenges me and because I want the people I am dancing with to have an good time and not go "what the hell was going on with that guy". Know what I mean?

Basically how music moves me and how it moves others ... two different things. I search for ways to find common ground. Hence my posts in this thread.

 

[tallpaul]

Tallpaul,

I guess I can see "shines" as both, but more the former. I view shines as more formalized steps or choreographed steps. Now, with any skill, once you are good, you can improvise choreography and/or interact / react with the partner and break out parts and add new things on the fly. Which makes them a more practiced way to "muck about" I suppose.

Personally, I think that if you are in any way interested in learning some shines, you should focus on the most simple ones – to help you get past the sense that they are “formalised” as much as possible.

If even simple shines seem formal and choreographed to you, then I don’t think you should concern yourself with any long shine patterns – you will inevitably make them look stiff and unnatural, and you probably don’t want that.

But I think that learning a few VERY simple shines would be worthwhile for you, with the goal of making them feel natural.

In the classes you go, do the teachers do “lineups” or “animations” at the start or end of the class? i.e. where everyone lines up in the same direction, they play a song, and the person at the front calls out steps for people to do, like the basic, right turns, left turns, Suzy Q etc. That’s the kind of simple thing I’m talking about.

But basically when I let a lady shine, I just do my basic, or a free single or double turn, or maybe turn my body sideways to her in the slot and then do a side-to-side basic with leg crosses, maintaining eye contact while going towards her and away etc, and then maybe I will do some orbiting walk stuff before picking her back up again. That actually feels natural to me.

Actually, that’s EXACTLY the kind of thing I’m talking about.

By “back basics” I just mean switch your basic step to going backwards with your left, then backwards with your right (instead of forwards with the left, back with the right – it’s just a variation of the regular basic step that looks quite nice, IMO).

All I’m suggesting is to have a few things like that up your sleeve that you’re comfortable with. Technically, the stuff you have described is your way of “doing shines” – it’s just that your shines are quite simple, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I find people impressive, maybe even inspiring. But when I am moved or inspired, I tend to NOT want to do shines or mucking about. Rather, I am more likely to want to get closer to my partner like in a closed position and do simple moves together where there is a connection. Usually the closer to a direct connection with a simple movement that I am, the more fun I am having. But that bores people.

Actually, there’s NOTHING to be embarrassed about doing simple moves in closed position. If the connection is good, then keep doing it I say.

I know that some followers are interested in doing lots of turns, and it’s good to have a few turn patterns up your sleeve to keep them happy – but the most important people to please are the followers who like simple moves done well. This is because spending your time doing simple moves well will help you improve as a dancer way more than doing complicated moves badly will.

I find people impressive, maybe even inspiring. But when I am moved or inspired, I tend to NOT want to do shines or mucking about.

I think the point I was trying to make was looking out for people on the social dancing floor who made you think “oh, I’d like to dance like that, that’s the kind of thing that could work for me”. Do you ever see other people dancing Salsa and think “yes, I’d really like my dancing to look like that”?

(And by the way, what did you think of the video I posted from the Puerto Rican congress? You don’t have to like it – I just thought that the dancers in it had an infectious sense of fun!)

But you see, structured or improvised or done just by letting go or by feel, "shines" or "mucking about" aren't things I enjoy or aspire to for myself

To be honest, I found this a very strange comment for you to make...

By “mucking about” I simply mean doing some fun and spontaneous – whatever is fun and spontaneous for you.

Is spontaneity something you inherently dislike? I’m surprised to hear this, given that you’ve said you’re a musician. Do you never improvise when you’re playing guitar? (i.e. “jam”) Or do you always play music exactly the way the sheet music tells you to?

The reason I ask is that spontaneity is a huge part of the personality of Salsa dancing. It sounds a bit like you’re coming to Salsa with the mindset more associated with more formalised styles of dancing, like ballroom. It may be that you’ll get more enjoyment out of form of dance that puts a bigger emphasis on choreographed steps. (Like ballroom, line dancing, Irish step dancing or whatever else).