Trouble ahead? 6 MONTH UPDATE ON PAGE 2

miércoles

Changui
I'd be very interested to hear your experiences on this subject.

My wife and I started salsa classes a few months ago with a view to learning together, attending the same courses and progressing at the same pace.
However, last night after our class, it became clear that this is not going to quite pan out as we imagined, because, although we of comparable natural ability and learn at a similar pace, our levels of motivation (addiction? :lol: ) differ immensely and our general attitude is different.

Our lessons have been disrupted by our wedding weekend and subsequent honeymoon. We've missed four formal lessons and four informal practice sessions.We're away for a few days next week too and as a result will be missing another week's lessons.
Whilst I find this incredibly frustrating and feel the best solution is to double up on classes this week, my wife would rather skip lessons altogether and resume when we're back.
Whilst I can see her point, I just feel I have to take every possible opportunity to attend classes, to practice and just to dance and learn as much as I can.
She enjoys dancing and learning but is happy to do it at a relaxed tempo and, if I'm being really critical, doesn't want to have to work too hard (fair enough I suppose, it's 'only a hobby').
I, on the other hand, spend almost every waking moment running through what I've learned in my head, practising my steps on the way to the kitchen etc. and just want to learn as much as I can and as quickly as I can. I'd be at Salsa class every night if it were possible!

We had a chat and finally came to the conclusion that I basically have so much more hunger; I "need" to dance and attend classes much more. The way things have developed I seem to want to go dancing three or four times for every time my wife wants to dance.
I realise this is unusual in itself, i.e. it's usually the woman who are left frustrated by a partner who is hard to motivate and whose learning curve drags way behind her own. However, I digress and the issue I wanted to raise applies whichever way round it is.

Luckily, my wife and I came to an arrangement before we'd done too much bickering at one another. :lol:
I have agreed to stop putting my wife under too much pressure to motivate her to attend classes if she happens not to be in the mood, and in turn, she has agreed I can attend classes and go out dancing at any time without her whenever I want to (after all it will not be a problem for me to "go it alone" as both in class and at the local salsa events there is usually a surplus of followers). This way, I get to satisfy my addiction and my wife doesn't start to associate Salsa classes with the negative experience of me moaning at her to get ready for class. :oops:

Yes, I realise what a great tolerant wife I have and I genuinely believe we have come to the best possible arrangement for our situation.
Of course, in time it will lead to me advancing much quicker than she does as I'm certain I will be attending at least two classes per week whilst she attends one.

So how do you think this will work out in the long term? Will this become a problem? Will I become frustrated when she can't keep up?

Or could this (ironically) even benefit us in the long run? My wife is a very natural, instinctive dancer so maybe it's better that I, as the leader, put in more work. I'm sure that if I learn to lead well, she'll be able to follow quite a lot of stuff without having specifically learnt the moves.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I would be very interested to hear your opinions and any experiences you may have to share about learning with your significant other.
How did/do things work for you? What problems did/do you face? How did/do you deal with it?
 
Well, I am married to my everlovin' and we both learned salsa together, so that's quite a long time ago now - and we're still together!

Like you I became the more addicted - and still spend a lot of time thinking about the dance, like you. She's pretty good, and enjoys occasional lessons and social dancing but that's it. As she knows the scene, she's content that if I go to events, including weekenders, solo or with a group of other addicts then it's because I want to dance and I am not going to get into any trouble off the dance floor.

It has not been roses all the way. Followers improve quickly at the start and have a more varied experience early on because they dance different repertoires with different leads. Leaders have to toil through the early stages and offer their own limited repertoire to many follows. During this period of differing experiences we had lots of arguments over lead / follow and somehow spouses are less forgiving of each other. I still recall one time I got really mad because I thought she was not paying attention to my lead, whereas with partners she wasn't married to, I was sure she was paying more attention.

It works the other way round, too. One gorgeous lady came up to us at the end of the evening and paid a very handsome compliment to my dancing. Our next outing two nights later - I have never known my everlovin' to be so responsive on the dance floor 8)
 
Flex said:
One gorgeous lady came up to us at the end of the evening and paid a very handsome compliment to my dancing. Our next outing two nights later - I have never known my everlovin' to be so responsive on the dance floor 8)

:) :) Well that was ... 8)
 
Flex said:
Followers improve quickly at the start and have a more varied experience early on because they dance different repertoires with different leads.

Interesting. We're finding the opposite. There are much more followers for me to dance with here and the standard of their dancing is generally better than that of the leaders.
Last night at class I was the only man in a group of around 8.
My wife is finding it harder to find other people to dance with and learn from than I am.

Flex said:
Leaders have to toil through the early stages and offer their own limited repertoire to many follows.

I have found the followers I have danced with very patient and forgiving of my limited repertoire. But I just think they're all glad of a new man on the scene who can dance in time! :D

Flex said:
During this period of differing experiences we had lots of arguments over lead / follow and somehow spouses are less forgiving of each other.

Ain't that the truth! Guilty as charge, yer honor! :oops:
 
Re: Trouble ahead? Learning to dance with your significant o

I don't think it's actually all that uncommon for the male of the couple to become more obsessed with learning and improving while the female retain a casual attitude or even drop out almost completely. I've come across a few cases myself.

Since it's much harder for beginner leaders to get up to speed in partner dancing than for female beginners, I think it makes sense for you to keep going to classes and socials without pressurising your wife to do the same. If both of you take classes and practise at the same rate, there's a good chance that she will go up levels before you, especially if (as you say) she is a natural dancer, simply because it's easier for the follower in the beginning stage -- see Edie's learning curve chart from w w w.salsastories.com/stories_a-b/beginners_hell.html:
learning_curve.jpg


I don't think the difference in attitude should necessarily become a problem. As long as your wife is happy for you to keep learning and she trusts you, and as long as you don't abuse that trust and also make sure that you still spend enough amount of quality time with her away from dancing, it can work fine. And when you two go dancing together, it will be all the more enjoyable for her if you are a competent leader. It may even motivate her to learn more too. It's a wonderful thing to be able to share the pleasure of dancing with your loved one, and it is *not* necessary for both of you to have the same level of passion/obsession for dance in order to enjoy that.

Good luck! :D
 
Some wise and reassuring words there, MacMoto. Cheers!

It was that very graph which prompted me to say maybe our early development isn't typical. It certainly doesn't apply to us.
As I said, we're both of similar (natural) ability and generally both pick up stuff equally quickly but it's me that's already "investing time and effort in learning" (as it says I'm supposed to do later on according to the graph :P ). So, by doing more, I'm probably keeping up with her level so far.

And last night I was forced to learn fast ... really fast! As the only bloke there, I did of course have the benefit of having a partner all the time whilst the women all had to spend some time without a partner.
The downside was that the instructor spent a long time showing them all their steps and I just had to watch him run through a couple of times and just get on with copying his footwork and working it out for myself! :neutral:
It was a bit of a baptism of fire, especially as I was trying to learn something from scratch and then had to try and lead eight different partners through it.
In the end of course it was extremely beneficial and I went home having learned probably more than any other student.
But then I guess it all comes back to the point you were making that basically as a leader you have more work to do becasue you have to learn the moves and learn to lead them.
 
Seems to me problems only happen when one or other partner tries to modify the other's dancing behaviour. Sure it's something you guys want to share, but I don't think it's necessary for you both to go everywhere every time. I like the arrangement you guys came to. It's sad you can't do everything together, but better to have rare, beautiful evenings together than frequent grumpy ones!

Now I need to explain that to my SO... (she siply can't do late nights, but still tries!)
 
Re: Trouble ahead? Learning to dance with your significant o

MacMoto said:
see Edie's learning curve chart from w w w.salsastories.com/stories_a-b/beginners_hell.html:

This graph is fantastic - it's put down visually what I've been feeling for some time now, how followers who started about the same time as me seem to be progressing much more quickly. I almost thought that my internal reassurance that leaders have it harder than followers was only a psychological trick to stop myself feeling rubbish about my ability - even after four classes last week.

Edie's "Beginner's Hell" article is making me feel so much better - thanks a ton for the link!
 
Re: Trouble ahead? Learning to dance with your significant o

FrustratedLatinInsideMe said:
MacMoto said:
see Edie's learning curve chart from w w w.salsastories.com/stories_a-b/beginners_hell.html:

This graph is fantastic - it's put down visually what I've been feeling for some time now, how followers who started about the same time as me seem to be progressing much more quickly. I almost thought that my internal reassurance that leaders have it harder than followers was only a psychological trick to stop myself feeling rubbish about my ability - even after four classes last week.

Edie's "Beginner's Hell" article is making me feel so much better - thanks a ton for the link!

Yeah. Also don't forget the YEARS of bedroom dancing, moving and grooving most girls do to practice their dancing to pop songs before they become a beginner with "No dance experience" in a Salsa class. :roll:
 
Most of the "disagreements" I see in our classes between partners are when Husband & Wife or GF & BF are together. I'm exactly the same with my own SO.
Certainly it's harder for the guys in the beginning. They've got to understand not only where they need to be and what to do with their feet, but they also need to understand what they want their partner to be doing, and how to convey this information to her in a manner that she will understand, whilst not causing any physical pain or discomfort.
As you get through beginners to improver level, this flattens out and even goes the other way, as the guys have an understanding of lead but the ladies now need to learn much more complex footwork.
I find it tends to even out again as we get to intermediates/advanced as leading complex moves bcomes more difficult, whilst so does responding to those leads accordingly.
 
Re: Trouble ahead? Learning to dance with your significant o

azzey said:
Yeah. Also don't forget the YEARS of bedroom dancing, moving and grooving most girls do to practice their dancing to pop songs before they become a beginner with "No dance experience" in a Salsa class. :roll:

I'm starting to think I'm actually a girl! :shock: :lol:
 
I agree with what the others have said, it shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't try to 'fix' your partners problems or tell her about them. Even for non-married partners that is a mindfield and most guys do not survive to live to tell the tale.

Just enjoy dancing with her for who she is. Also there is no limit to the experience that you can gain that will enable you to have a better dance with your partner. As long as you learn to adapt to her and her level and do have fun social dancing fairly often, she doesn't necessarily even need to do any classes past a certain point of picking up the basics.

miércoles said:
It was that very graph which prompted me to say maybe our early development isn't typical. It certainly doesn't apply to us.

As I said, we're both of similar (natural) ability and generally both pick up stuff equally quickly but it's me that's already "investing time and effort in learning" (as it says I'm supposed to do later on according to the graph :P ). So, by doing more, I'm probably keeping up with her level so far.

Ah, I think you misunderstand the graph. It doesn't say you will invest time later on.. it says "if you CONTINUE to invest time and effort" i.e. it's continual for the guy but the sheer amount of material (not just moves) he needs to learn and the practice required makes the learning curve much longer for him.

A better way to say it is that followers of any level need a much more experienced leader to dance to their full potential. Basically someone with about 4 times the amount of experience, at least in the first few years.

Random examples (which do not always hold true and depends where you learn, quality of teaching etc etc)

1 month follower with 4 month leader
4 month follower with 1.5 year leader
6 month follower with 2 year leader
1 year follower with 4 year leader
after that it does even off a bit

This is not to say they won't enjoy dancing with someone with less experience but in order show off what they can do and get to their limit they need someone with much more.

Just try going to a Salsa venue with a range of much more experienced leads than you and see what happens in terms of what levels of partner you end up dancing with most!

So I would say your arrangement should work out great. If in time she realises that you have out-grown her as a dancer she can always take a couple of private lessons (with you as her partner). A follower will advance very quickly in the early stages from privates.
 
First -- have you thought of putting your q in book form ? ( just kidding )

I am a dance coach, and have taught thousands of couples over the yrs.

What you are experencing, is quite normal. The learning rate of any 2 people, is invaraibly different, married , or otherwise .

I have currently 3 classes with many married and single couples in attendance.

Before I commence ANY new class, I illustrate the responsibilty, that lies in the mans hands.

It is not important who is the quicker ( its not a race ).
The way you structure your lessons, will have an impact on your learning .
Couples , should always have a common ground. to develop their own specific needs . Ladies traditionally learn more quickly than men.

This should be re inforced, on a regular basis.

You show all the frustration and impatience of a beginner-- thats the norm-- dance is a marathon, not a sprint .

If you feel the need to put in extra time-- you will ( and so will your wife ) reap the rewards .

I only wish I had 50 guys like you !!!
 
Two things:

1. Where are you? I want to move to a place where there are always more followers than leads, since it's sure not often the case here!

2. I think you've got a good arrangement, in that your wife doesn't mind if you go dancing without her. My wife does mind - a lot - but I end up doing so anyway. This probably isn't so great for our relationship. :(
 
SnowDancer said:
Two things:


2. I think you've got a good arrangement, in that your wife doesn't mind if you go dancing without her. My wife does mind - a lot - but I end up doing so anyway. This probably isn't so great for our relationship. :(
NOt good not good...snow...tsk tsk...
 
SnowDancer said:
1. Where are you? I want to move to a place where there are always more followers than leads, since it's sure not often the case here!

Hey, if you are male and dance vaguely Cuban style, Dortmund, Germany is a good place to come. Of course, it's not exactly just round the corner from Portland!! :lol:
 
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