You need to train voice to text better. The more time you train it the more accurate it becomes!
Tips for follow who can't follow and is well aware?
You need to train voice to text better. The more time you train it the more accurate it becomes!
First off, welcome!
Unfortunately, I can only give general suggestions as I don't dance Cuban. But I will simply repeat and expand on what everyone here suggests. I found leading and following challenging in their respective ways with both new and seasoned dancers. I will try to keep my thoughts organized but good luck!
Correcting: I would leave this to the instructor unless the leader specifically asks. You can call the teacher over to ask for clarification. Usually the instructor will see how you follow and how the leader leads the move; point out corrections needed by both parties. This avoids any power struggle between leader-follower and you get "expert" clarification. It's been a hit or miss for me both as a leader and follower correcting people. After a while, I just found calling the instructor makes things much easier.
Anticipating/Predicting: When you as the follow (really) know how to do the move with the slightest understanding of what is being led, I found it becomes easier to just do the move. However, it unfortunately trains the leader to fall into bad habits (not your problem unless you dance with them). They will think they are leading well so they will keep doing the same thing (incorrectly/unclearly) each time.
This along with disconnected musicality were probably the most annoying for me. Having to anticipate and be a microsecond behind kept feeling like catch up; where I found my predicting increased to stay in sync with other issues. This where any discrepancy in musicality between the lead and I really came through. As a leader, it was much easier.
As a leader, I also would periodically test (even beginner) followers into mildly more advanced stuff for those who seemed to be able to relax and go with the flow. Assuming you know your core steps and timing well, the more relaxed you are the easier it comes (at least what I found). Listening "earcandy (music that really moves you)" will help you escape from inside your head.
Testing tension awareness is very useful. Even as a follow you can push pull gently and see how the leads respond. This will tell you if the lead is forceful or very light.
At the end of the day, remember what you enjoy about/ brought you this activity and preserve that. I found enjoying the music was the simplest. If the partner wasn't good, I could let myself get lost in the music and relax.
If you bring a genuine and positive attitude, people will dance with you (unless you beat them up):
Unfortunately, I can only give general suggestions as I don't dance Cuban. But I will simply repeat and expand on what everyone here suggests. I found leading and following challenging in their respective ways with both new and seasoned dancers. I will try to keep my thoughts organized but good luck!
Correcting: I would leave this to the instructor unless the leader specifically asks. You can call the teacher over to ask for clarification. Usually the instructor will see how you follow and how the leader leads the move; point out corrections needed by both parties. This avoids any power struggle between leader-follower and you get "expert" clarification. It's been a hit or miss for me both as a leader and follower correcting people. After a while, I just found calling the instructor makes things much easier.
Anticipating/Predicting: When you as the follow (really) know how to do the move with the slightest understanding of what is being led, I found it becomes easier to just do the move. However, it unfortunately trains the leader to fall into bad habits (not your problem unless you dance with them). They will think they are leading well so they will keep doing the same thing (incorrectly/unclearly) each time.
This along with disconnected musicality were probably the most annoying for me. Having to anticipate and be a microsecond behind kept feeling like catch up; where I found my predicting increased to stay in sync with other issues. This where any discrepancy in musicality between the lead and I really came through. As a leader, it was much easier.
As a leader, I also would periodically test (even beginner) followers into mildly more advanced stuff for those who seemed to be able to relax and go with the flow. Assuming you know your core steps and timing well, the more relaxed you are the easier it comes (at least what I found). Listening "earcandy (music that really moves you)" will help you escape from inside your head.
Testing tension awareness is very useful. Even as a follow you can push pull gently and see how the leads respond. This will tell you if the lead is forceful or very light.
At the end of the day, remember what you enjoy about/ brought you this activity and preserve that. I found enjoying the music was the simplest. If the partner wasn't good, I could let myself get lost in the music and relax.
If you bring a genuine and positive attitude, people will dance with you (unless you beat them up):
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1derpalm
Son Montuno
I have danced with the Rotor (or whipper or what ever its called) on many occasions. right into my eyeballs
Thanks for finding the time to reply to my thread!
Thanks to what some very nice people explained here, I think my problem is more of a predicting thing than actually correcting. It's not like I tell my dancing partners they are doing x or y wrong or like I manhandle them. It's more like the teacher calls for a step and I get ready to do it. If the leader leads a different step than the one instructed by the teacher (e.g. goes into a side basic rather than a basic step) I just can't manage to stop myself from doing the "right" one (also, as mentioned above, it's not like a different step than the one instructed is "wrong", but still...). I usually apologize for not following the lead... provided that i actually GET that he was leading a different step.
If we just happen to clash, I just try and laugh if off.You mean you can both be dancing salsa and be relaxed? Sounds like magic to me!
1derpalm
Son Montuno
In titime it will happen. Took me forever but I get more compliments now that i relax.Thanks for finding the time to reply to my thread!
Thanks to what some very nice people explained here, I think my problem is more of a predicting thing than actually correcting. It's not like I tell my dancing partners they are doing x or y wrong or like I manhandle them. It's more like the teacher calls for a step and I get ready to do it. If the leader leads a different step than the one instructed by the teacher (e.g. goes into a side basic rather than a basic step) I just can't manage to stop myself from doing the "right" one (also, as mentioned above, it's not like a different step than the one instructed is "wrong", but still...). I usually apologize for not following the lead... provided that i actually GET that he was leading a different step.
You mean you can both be dancing salsa and be relaxed? Sounds like magic to me!
There is a term called back-leading which can be applied here. It can be subtle with no man handling involved. However, back-leading has its own host of problems.
If you back-lead too much, it won't be enjoyable for your partner.
In a class setting, when an instructor calls for a move, some followers will back-lead a confused lead. This may appear like they are doing the lead a favor, but don't develop a habit out of it. Any half-competent lead will hate being back-led. Advanced leads see it as a red flag for bad following.
If I encounter a back-leader, I back back-lead them right back and then never ask them to dance again. (thankfully it's super rare)
This is why I say to curb this tendency because it can develop into a bigger issue later on.
Just something to keep in mind of in future.
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Bostontraitor
Son
1) it takes time to follow correctly. You need to have some basic training and knowledge of most of moves.
2) a good lead will leave no guessing work for you. So you will dance better when the lead is firm and apparently.
3) It seems hard at beginning, but trust me, a newbie follow will get to enjoy a dance faster than a newbie lead.
4) Don't back lead. Be patient. You will get really good at dancing in no time.
2) a good lead will leave no guessing work for you. So you will dance better when the lead is firm and apparently.
3) It seems hard at beginning, but trust me, a newbie follow will get to enjoy a dance faster than a newbie lead.
4) Don't back lead. Be patient. You will get really good at dancing in no time.
This is where the it gets "complicated" as there are a few things going on. Learning the structure of patterns is good in the beginning (to get your core fundamentals; all complex moves are only effective with great fundamentals) which is what the instructor (should) instill into you as being important hence the "patterns." However, this immediately conflicts with the "role" that a follower has: to follow.
Don't get me wrong, the leader should be doing what the instructor is teaching and that's the leader's problem! However, you as the follow wouldn't be "wrong" for following what is lead (even if it's not what the instructor wants the LEADER to do). You are doing exactly what a "good" follower does: goes with the flow. I had a partner tonight and they said "I just go with it" so the dance was great! For me, a follow with the ability to recognize adjust and go with the flow is a big plus. It also allows you to be free of being a pattern monkey
I usually apologize for not following the lead... provided that i actually GET that he was leading a different step.
Again, if you go with the flow, it's much easier rather than what you may be doing (backleading). If you are unsure of what they were leading because the leader was unsure on what to do, then unfortunately, all that's left is to suck it up until it's over.
Again, save your breath ad roll with confrontational leads/follows by calling the instructor to show the move (asking them to lead you and then you watch them follow). Your partner will (hopefully) pay attention and do the correct move; the instructor will call them out if they aren't leading the right move! However, this detracts from your role as a follow vs memorizing patterns.
I am talking from Linear Salsa standpoint vs Rueda so not sure how much any of what I say will help since from my experience with Rueda (which is what I think you are doing?), the leader following what the conductor calls puts the whole conga circle into chaos.
For linear I can. We get do do whatever we want vs doing what the conductor calls; express our musicality. Find your "flow." This is easiest with "good" stimuli (aka nice music you jive with). It can be meditative and hypnotic. So many people have fallen for being too cognitive (including myself) but over time, you learn to just feel and do vs overthink and analyze.
I've found there are two types of people who say this:
Type 1: "I just go with it"
Proceeds to have a very nice free flowing dance as if timing doesn't matter. She instinctively knows what I want to do and there is no conflict or confusion. The danced flows very nicely.
Type 2: "Trust me...I just go with it!!"
Proceeds with doing everything backwards. It's obvious she's never taken a class in her life. Has no sense of timing. May start singing badly or perform some awkward steps that have nothing to do with what's going on in the music. Does the opposite of what is being led and backleads absolutely everything. Dance is very un-flowy.
After the dance, goes on a 10 minute spiel about how people shouldn't take dancing so seriously and reinforces the fact that she's self-trained... as if that wasn't evident enough already
So, things have changed, not necessarily for the better, since I opened this thread. This post is quite long and probably uninteresting, just helps me collect my thoughts.
Saturday I attended my first private lesson, which consisted in one teacher dancing with me while the other called the steps and all. I didn't feel confident enough to ask the leader if I was doing something wrong following.. I just hoped he would tell me if I was (probably, wrong tense here, sorry).
Again, yesterday I went to my weekly group class (different school and teachers than the one above). I ended up being without a partner (couple guys were missing... but still Chris_Yannick you've scared the hell out of me with the thought of people not wanting to dance with me because I back lead). The people who didn't have a partner ended up dancing with advanced students that were at the school for other reasons or with the teachers. I danced with the male teacher.
It was somehow eye opening to the fact that I did actually understand what he was leading (did 2 songs of free dancing at the end of class).
As Smiley79 wrote, I still felt quite a lot of discomfort in being a little late in my "one" to wait and feel what he felt like doing, but it's a way less scary feeling than actually not knowing what your dance partner asks you to do.
At the end of class he complimented me on timing, arm tension and not leaning on him too much with my weight.
I took the opportunity to ask him about my concerns. He told me I wasn't back leading, just when he tried doing a step they did not teach us yet I resisted a little, which he thinks is fear and a little different than backleading.
May be that he's just trying to coax me into not dropping his class and he couldn't tell me the dance was awful since he's the one I learned from? Who knows.
My fear is still strong in my head. Maybe it was just a lucky evening.
Most of all, I now feel like an entitled person that's not able to dance with everyone while I'd just want to have fun not necessarily with the best lead.
Why is all of this SO stressing?
Saturday I attended my first private lesson, which consisted in one teacher dancing with me while the other called the steps and all. I didn't feel confident enough to ask the leader if I was doing something wrong following.. I just hoped he would tell me if I was (probably, wrong tense here, sorry).
Again, yesterday I went to my weekly group class (different school and teachers than the one above). I ended up being without a partner (couple guys were missing... but still Chris_Yannick you've scared the hell out of me with the thought of people not wanting to dance with me because I back lead). The people who didn't have a partner ended up dancing with advanced students that were at the school for other reasons or with the teachers. I danced with the male teacher.
It was somehow eye opening to the fact that I did actually understand what he was leading (did 2 songs of free dancing at the end of class).
As Smiley79 wrote, I still felt quite a lot of discomfort in being a little late in my "one" to wait and feel what he felt like doing, but it's a way less scary feeling than actually not knowing what your dance partner asks you to do.
At the end of class he complimented me on timing, arm tension and not leaning on him too much with my weight.
I took the opportunity to ask him about my concerns. He told me I wasn't back leading, just when he tried doing a step they did not teach us yet I resisted a little, which he thinks is fear and a little different than backleading.
May be that he's just trying to coax me into not dropping his class and he couldn't tell me the dance was awful since he's the one I learned from? Who knows.
My fear is still strong in my head. Maybe it was just a lucky evening.
Most of all, I now feel like an entitled person that's not able to dance with everyone while I'd just want to have fun not necessarily with the best lead.
Why is all of this SO stressing?
You post and i feel like i should stay home and never dance with anyone until i became a pro or something.After the dance, goes on a 10 minute spiel about how people shouldn't take dancing so seriously and reinforces the fact that she's self-trained... as if that wasn't evident enough already
No like really, don't people feel bad about wasting other people's time? Especially on a night out when one should have fun and not teach you to dance.
Oh, sorry, didn't mean to scare you. But if you are aware that you are doing it (or not doing it), then you're already one step ahead of those followers I'm talking about. I am mostly talking about people who don't care to improve nor try to understand how certain things they're doing are disruptive to the overall dance partnership.
The fact that you're here worried about doing those things to your partner tells me you are not in the category of followers I'm talking about.
That's great news! I wouldn't overthink it. It makes total sense that the fear is what is causing the resistence. If you were backleading or doing something too disruptive, I am sure he would have said so, especially since you asked.
Doesn't sound like entitlement to me. You're not going to click with every lead in the beginning so you shouldn't expect to. I didn't click with every follower either. You'll notice that the truly good leads will allow you to relax more.
You post and i feel like i should stay home and never dance with anyone until i became a pro or something.
No like really, don't people feel bad about wasting other people's time? Especially on a night out when one should have fun and not teach you to dance.
LOL. No don't do that. Go out and dance with as many people as you can and enjoy it while you can
I think maybe you're overthinking this. We were all beginners once. No one would have ever reached a competent level if they constantly felt like they were wasting other people's time.
The beauty of Salsa is that you can be dancing in the same place, space, or even with someone who's a 10x World Champion even if you're a complete newbie. You don't see this very often in many other sports/activities/hobbies. This means people are willingly doing this for the enjoyment and not thinking that it's a waste of their time because I assure you that very few people are thinking that way.
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There is a woman I know, a notorious BL'er. It's one thing to do it in a rueda, but she does it 1 on 1! And it's not subtle, either.
A couple of times back in the day I actually asked followers on the fly in a class rueda to back lead a move that I didn't quite know. So there is a time and place for everything
Being willing to learn is nothing to apologize for. If you focus on developing good habits through correct fundamentals (including going with the flow), then there is much less risk of "doing something wrong" mentality; simply work on replicating what was "right."
He is not likely saying you DO backlead vs IF I backlead. We are here to encourage mindfulness on dance culture, etiquette and how to work toward a better dancing experience (get it right the first time vs having to unlearn bad habits; much harder trust me). As per my previous section, stay mindful/focused on being in tune with what is being lead vs "being right."
It's MUCH easier when you "just dance" vs trying to multitask the way in a class: remembering/learning something completely new while paying attention to the lead. When you get on the dance floor and bring a positive humble attitude (with the dance, your partner -and- yourself), the flow is easier. Even if you practice with a partner outside of the class (like a small social group), doing it in the confines of simply "dancing" makes it easier to learn; less pressure to multitask, "get it right" vs being present and enjoy. Class setting is much different so it's comparing apples to oranges. This is why social dancing is the best practice. Catching up to being onetime can be learned through developing your own musicality and how to execute the move with a flow.
Sounds like you are well on your way in a positive direction. Timing allows you to keep an overall consistent feel. Arg.. tension.. Tension/"connection (matching energy)" is so hard to find! I don't know about other leaders (and followers), but good tension allows for clearer communication. This is where as you (and the leader; that is key) learn to match each other's tension the clarity in the signaling (as long as the leader knows what they are trying to do) really shines. I know we discussion tension/connection so often on SF. I had a mixed bag of beginners the other day. A few were jello arms and I could tell they were thinking vs doing. I could go on a tirade about lack of tension but I won't hijack (as is a SF pasttime
).I might have already said this (can't remember/still foggy right now). Being present allowed me to follow much easier. "Don't think, feel" seems so appropriate. Consider the struggles when you think vs the successes when you just feel the signal/music. With your instructor, he know his moves so you felt confident on applying what you learned vs learning it; not likely to back lead in that situation because you went with the flow. I think you would replicate the back leading if we had one of those two instructors give a new piece of material and the other "accidentally" do something else while you focus on getting the new move "right."
What are you doing to exude entitlement? Just wanting to have fun does not sound entitled; something we all aim for. The "best" is VERY subjective. I still remember an experience of a "101" beginner who was able to follow and flow better than my instructor! Be patient, give yourself time.
I've found there are two types of people who say this:
Type 1: "I just go with it"
Proceeds to have a very nice free flowing dance as if timing doesn't matter. She instinctively knows what I want to do and there is no conflict or confusion. The danced flows very nicely.
Type 2: "Trust me...I just go with it!!"
Proceeds with doing everything backwards. It's obvious she's never taken a class in her life. Has no sense of timing. May start singing badly or perform some awkward steps that have nothing to do with what's going on in the music. Does the opposite of what is being led and backleads absolutely everything. Dance is very un-flowy.
After the dance, goes on a 10 minute spiel about how people shouldn't take dancing so seriously and reinforces the fact that she's self-trained... as if that wasn't evident enough already
"Once" in a huge problem.
That's quite an interesting topic, actually. Will look into old posts to learn some more.I could go on a tirade about lack of tension but I won't hijack (as is a SF pasttime
That's my main concern!