Timing is everything when it comes to Salsa Dancing...

[Susieqsalsa]

Hello,
Trying to make a long story short...my boyfriend and I started dancing two years ago. It's been a bumpy road, especially since it takes the lead longer to learn than it does for the follower. In our area, dancing and lessons is new and budding, so most people are fairly new dancers. We have to travel over an hour to get high quality instructors or to even just observe advanced dancers doing their thing...

With that in mind, I find that I am having trouble as a follower in actually following...primarily when the leaders are leading off timing. I try not to back lead, really I try not to....and I am trying to be patient with those who are learning...but after two years now, it's still not happening. I should say that what I have learned about myself as a dancer is that I HAVE to dance TO and WITH the music, no matter if it's on1 or on2, it's gotta be on something, not just anything...lol

So, my question is: what do followers do when the lead clearly isn't leading properly? Do we just follow it for whatever it is or do we try sneak in a little timing corrections amidst our dance moves? I will sometimes turn out slowly so that I come out of the turn on time, or speed up a spin if that will put me out on the correct count. But I am finding that messes up what the lead is trying to do, since they are not "hearing" or feeling the correct beat, they just go with their own flow. I also find that when this happens and I just follow whatever they are doing, I have no motivation to move my feet since they are not moving to the music and it really feels like I have lead in my shoes. I also then tire more quickly and feel like stopping altogether. It takes away from my enjoyment of the dance.

On the flip side, when I go to the big city, I see that people really segregate into groups of compatible dancing styles and levels. I never really liked that but I can now understand why that happens. I can't do that in my small town. But another major concern I experience is becoming injured when dancing with those who don't lead properly. I suffer from back and should pain after a night of dancing in my town, but not in the big cities.

I do take occasional trips to the big city to get in some quality dancing but it's not always feasible. But my main concern is the lack of enjoyment and being prone to injury when dancing with my most special dancer, the Boyfriend. To me, dancing on time and to the music is everything, even if the moves are more simple with less combos in it. Does anyone else feel the same way?!?

 

[chrisk]

Welcome to SF, susieqsalsa!

You might want to check the thread Does timing matter?, which is related to your question and which is quite recent.

 

[terence]

Snip..



To me, dancing on time and to the music is everything,

Not quite. EVERYthing, from a dance perspective, its controlled by 3 aspects( Ive mentioned this in the past ).

Balance control

Muscle control

Timing control

Lose ANY one, and you will lose all 3 .

 

[SmartAlx]

With that in mind, I find that I am having trouble as a follower in actually following...primarily when the leaders are leading off timing. I try not to back lead, really I try not to....and I am trying to be patient with those who are learning...but after two years now, it's still not happening. I should say that what I have learned about myself as a dancer is that I HAVE to dance TO and WITH the music, no matter if it's on1 or on2, it's gotta be on something, not just anything...lol

TOTALLY understand. Right there with ya girl. I wonder if my technique might help you. It is a personal technique and I wouldn't necessarily advocate it to everyone, but I think I'll mention it anyway. I have this ability to count the musical beat in my head (or whisper it quietly to myself) while my body is doing a different rhythm in response to the follower. When I find myself dancing with a girl who is just awful at dancing on time, I sometimes "escape" to this on time world inside my head. This does 2 things, maybe 3. #1 It helps me to ease my mind and enjoy the dance more. #2 It can sometimes give me the ability to influence her (through my lead and timing) in other very subtle ways and #3 she might possibly hear a beat or two and that could influence her timing in a more direct way. Although I usually try to keep the counting pretty quiet. I don't want to make her feel bad.

Anyway, I've never thought about telling girls to try this technique before. Give it a try, if you have the skill to partition your mind like that.

So, my question is: what do followers do when the lead clearly isn't leading properly? Do we just follow it for whatever it is or do we try sneak in a little timing corrections amidst our dance moves?

It depends on the leader. You knew I was going to say that didn't you? Well why did you ask? LOL

Seriously though. If a guy is indeed a good leader then he should give you enough freedom so you can influence his timing. I absolutely 100% support that. The way I teach leading and following reflects that. But some guys don't lead that way, and with them, you won't have much influence over them.

Just because you exhibit influence over your leader doesn't mean you are back leading. A back lead is an assumption and it's a decision about what YOU are going to do. What you are doing is complying with the moves he has led you to do in such a way as to influence him. Perfectly acceptable. I love it!

Remember. The leader gets to decide WHAT to do. The follower gets to decide HOW to do it.

And if guys (or girls) have trouble with this philosophy I'll explain it with this metaphor. Think of a SECOND date. The guy is in charge. He picks the venue. He drives. He pays. But you still have influence. Because of various conversations that you had on the first date, he knows that you like comedy, but don't like movies on a date. He knows that you hate chinese, but you love Italian. So he doesn't take you to a chinese restaurant. He takes you to an Italian Restaurant. And he doesn't take you to a funny movie. He takes you to a standup comedy club. And you still have influence. You can overrule any of those decisions. Maybe you hate that Italian restaurant. Or you despise that particular comic. It's okay to influence your leader.

I will sometimes turn out slowly so that I come out of the turn on time, or speed up a spin if that will put me out on the correct count.

Perfect. Keep it up.

But I am finding that messes up what the lead is trying to do, since they are not "hearing" or feeling the correct beat, they just go with their own flow.

Then these guys are not the guys to try to adjust their timing. But that doesn't mean you can't try to find new ways to influence them. Maybe you can't get 100% back on beat with one adjustment. But maybe you can get halfway there. Or a quarter the way there. Then with 3 or 4 adjustments you'll find yourself back on beat.

I also find that when this happens and I just follow whatever they are doing, I have no motivation to move my feet since they are not moving to the music and it really feels like I have lead in my shoes. I also then tire more quickly and feel like stopping altogether. It takes away from my enjoyment of the dance.

I totally understand. At this time I usually say something like "would you rather dance with your guy or the music." I'm assuming in these cases though you would rather dance with the music. You'd be perfectly happy if he let go and let you do your thing. Too bad. I would start counting. Either count with the music as an escape, or try to count HIS timing. Maybe try to find out what in the music he is hearing. He might be responding to something.

But another major concern I experience is becoming injured when dancing with those who don't lead properly. I suffer from back and should pain after a night of dancing in my town, but not in the big cities.

I think you need to bite the bullet and tell them. Especially since there aren't too many dancers. I'm sure you don't want to blacklist anyone so you have 3 choices, ignore it and accept the probability that you'll get permanently hurt, tell them that they are hurting you, or quit dancing.

I do take occasional trips to the big city to get in some quality dancing but it's not always feasible. But my main concern is the lack of enjoyment and being prone to injury when dancing with my most special dancer, the Boyfriend. To me, dancing on time and to the music is everything, even if the moves are more simple with less combos in it. Does anyone else feel the same way?!?

You'd better talk to him. Obviously be nice about it and don't do it in a direct way. But you do need to let him know that a particular move hurts you. About enjoying the dance, now you've got to answer the question, "who do you want to dance with more, your boyfriend or the music?" Try to encourage him to learn, without challenging him too much. Approach it in a positive way. Get excited about it. Maybe buy him a private lesson with a great instructor for his birthday or christmas. I've taught a couple couples that did that. Man I love teaching couples in love.

Really regarding your boyfriend, it's important to him that you respect him so you don't want to come across as a know it all. Obviously. But you want him to change. So, like I said, get excited. He probably knows he lacks in certain areas. I hope he does anyway. Buy a timing CD. But not for him. Buy it for YOU! Then let him get in your car one day with it already in the CD player and have it "accidentally" playing in the middle of one of the tracks. He'll get curious. Maybe he'll ask to borrow it. Give him a great regular salsa CD. Find out who his favorite artists are and find other artist that sound a lot like them. Pandora.com can help with that. I think you need to get yourself into a position where your style of dancing is addictive to your boyfriend. That should be a start.

Anyway, that's my advice.

 

[Lola]

Eh, I just suck it up and deal with it for a dance. Think of it as a challenge; you now have to make your footwork around his 'beat', using his body cues instead of music for your timing. It works wonders for my follow, since I already know the beat. Keep in mind this may be partly because I learned On2 first in a city that socially only dances On1, so to me EVERYONE was on the wrong beat. It's a matter of perspective.

Oh and I really I like SmartAlx's method for a boyfriend or close friend.

 

[kbitten]

The best way to get a guy do what you want is make him THINK he decided that or hes in charge of what you want so since youre bf/gf you should try this when he's off time :

First tell him: "baby, I heard some PR people dance on clave and I want try to do that. You are the ONLY person that can do that with me so PLEASE help me". ( and then you give him puppy eyes).

when the song starts, you tell him "I am going to do the clave sound to help ME" and then you start "KA, KA, KA...KA, KA"

it will keep him on time for sure..dont do the sound the whole song unless he gets off time again hehe..

try that and report us back

 

[sweavo]

The best way to get a guy do what you want is make him THINK he decided that or hes in charge of what you want so since youre bf/gf you should try this when he's off time :
...
try that and report us back

Lol you are sooooo right. I need you to talk to my GF, there's no way she's going to get me to west-coast swing with her critical attitude!

 

[Salsa Student]

The best way to get a guy do what you want is make him THINK he decided that or hes in charge of what you want so since youre bf/gf you should try this when he's off time :

First tell him: "baby, I heard some PR people dance on clave and I want try to do that. You are the ONLY person that can do that with me so PLEASE help me". ( and then you give him puppy eyes).

when the song starts, you tell him "I am going to do the clave sound to help ME" and then you start "KA, KA, KA...KA, KA"

it will keep him on time for sure..dont do the sound the whole song unless he gets off time again hehe..

try that and report us back

Giving 'em the puppy eyes was mentioned in a recent Salsa survival class I took. Make sure to tilt your head to the side.

 

[Offbeat]

Lol you are sooooo right. I need you to talk to my GF, there's no way she's going to get me to west-coast swing with her critical attitude!

But why wouldn't you want to do west coast swing. Most good west coast swing dancers are closer to your philosophy of dancing than average salsa dancers!

 

[noobster]

But why wouldn't you want to do west coast swing. Most good west coast swing dancers are closer to your philosophy of dancing than average salsa dancers!

Yeah that, absolutely. WCS classes are where I learned that it *is* possible to teach musicality, and in an enormous group class no less. (Thank you Richard Kear!)

Sweavo you should do it!

 

[wildbill20056]

My issue, in general with WCS, is that it in general has nothing to do with swing music at all. If I want to dance to C & W I'd take up line dancing, and if I want to dance to Disco or Pop I'll take up Disco or Hip Hop.

Salsa at least, (outside of really bad DJ's and their cronies) is far more to its roots, and I think has a much more inherent musicality.

Off topic I know but I couldn't resist >.< (We, as salseros/as do get much much much better music to dance to/listen to, at least in my opinion)

Most good swing dancers have little or nothing to do with the music heritage they owe their dancing to, I thus find it very very hard to find any true relation tween style and music.

The only reason I can think why it might be perceived that WCS dancers are more musical in general is because from the start they are dealing with far more simply constructed music and rhythms. This head start and familiarity probably makes the difference.

 

[noobster]

My issue, in general with WCS, is that it in general has nothing to do with swing music at all. If I want to dance to C & W I'd take up line dancing, and if I want to dance to Disco or Pop I'll take up Disco or Hip Hop.

Are you saying that the only type of swing music with which you are familiar is C&W???
If so I would suggest you broaden your repertoire and then come back to this thread.

Salsa at least, (outside of really bad DJ's and their cronies) is far more to its roots, and I think has a much more inherent musicality.

I happen to like most salsa music better than I like most WCS music, but that doesn't mean it is more 'musical.' Actually I think it's kind of ridiculous to say that one musical genre is more musical than another musical genre. Your music is more musical than the next guy's? Really?

The only reason I can think why it might be perceived that WCS dancers are more musical in general is because from the start they are dealing with far more simply constructed music and rhythms. This head start and familiarity probably makes the difference.

I think newbie WCS dancers are often more familiar with WCS music than newbie salseros are with salsa, and therefore they take to the musical expression more easily.
A lot has been said on this board about how musicality comes from extended exposure to the music and familiarity with it. Salseros often come to the music at the same time as the dance, and consequently have a lot to learn about the music before they can dance with musicality.

Whatever makes the difference, difference it is. As I have observed it, pattern-monkeying and lack of musicality is a far more serious and endemic problem in the salsa vs WCS communities around here.

 

[wildbill20056]

Are you saying that the only type of swing music with which you are familiar is C&W???
If so I would suggest you broaden your repertoire and then come back to this thread.

Honestly how much does swing music generally have to do with WCS events? Any ECS aficionado will acknowledge that basically the dance has evolved to suit changing soundtracks, from rock and roll, to country, to rnb, to pop, to whatever. Each of these music styles however, has a more intimately associated dance style than WCS.

Actually I think it's kind of ridiculous to say that one musical genre is more musical than another musical genre. Your music is more musical than the next guy's? Really?

I was actually referring to the dance and music with that comment. WCS being removed, in general from swing music, is a dance performed to music of another genre. There must, then, be an inherent disconnect tween dance and music, thus compromising musicality. Unless, of course, WCS has evolved so far from it's Lindy Hop roots that it has nothing to do with swing (music) at all.

Taking the music alone, however, I would make the argument that the skill and musical dedication involved in Salsa Dura is generally at a higher level than that found in C & W, Pop and other charting music.

I think newbie WCS dancers are often more familiar with WCS music than newbie salseros are with salsa, and therefore they take to the musical expression more easily.
A lot has been said on this board about how musicality comes from extended exposure to the music and familiarity with it. Salseros often come to the music at the same time as the dance, and consequently have a lot to learn about the music before they can dance with musicality.

Here we are agreeing explicitly.

Whatever makes the difference, difference it is. As I have observed it, pattern-monkeying and lack of musicality is a far more serious and endemic problem in the salsa vs WCS communities around here.

Indeed based on the above is my argument when comparing the average dancers from both camps. However I put that down to instruction, not a culturally endemic issue to salsa.