Thinking Fast and Slow...

toan-hoang said:
All,

I recently read Thinking Fast and Slow and it inspired me to think about the way I am teaching and also how I am learning Salsa...

Toan
Click to expand...

I wrote about the same thing several weeks ago in another thread. It's nothing new, I think it's well accepted theory that our mind has several layers and our locomotive system is driven by its lower - high-speed levels and various parts of our brains are responsible for these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum
 
vit said:
I wrote about the same thing several weeks ago in another thread. It's nothing new, I think it's well accepted theory that our mind has several layers and our locomotive system is driven by its lower - high-speed levels and various parts of our brains are responsible for these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum
Click to expand...

If you can please share your personal experiences when it comes to this as well as how you have/seen the application of this to Salsa i.e. techniques or things that you have seen or done.

I am forever learning and find this all very interesting...
 
toan-hoang said:
If you can please share your personal experiences when it comes to this as well as how you have/seen the application of this to Salsa i.e. techniques or things that you have seen or done.
Click to expand...

I think my opinion is similar to your opinion expressed on above link

When learning how to dance, we get new info through upper levels of our mind. I think that there are several levels: explanation (probably topmost level, expressed in sentences), visual perception (as we see demo shown by instructor) and experiencing the movement dancing with the instructor (this one lowest / closest to our locomotive level). These info are/should be gradually transferred to our (low-level) locomotive system by a kind of reprogramming of that part of our brains and that process is relatively slow

In my opinion, explanations are indeed not very effective way of learning how to dance, because it is accepted by topmost levels that are far from our locomotive level. Perception is also problematic because we are frequently fooled by our eyes. Or we are not fooled, but demo is actually bad (and in case instructor notices that problem on the students not being aware they copied it from his bad demo and tries correcting it, is causing confusion). Dancing with instructor is fastest way to learn, as our locomotive system can perceive the movement directly. However, a good teacher will use and combine all methods to obtain the best result

Definition of bad habit is also a bit problematic. Is it something actually explained/demoed wrong way by the teacher, or just our try to use our imperfect locomotive system wrong way because of wrong info from upper levels of our mind ... etc
 
vit said:
When learning how to dance, we get new info through upper levels of our mind. I think that there are several levels: explanation (probably topmost level, expressed in sentences), visual perception (as we see demo shown by instructor) and experiencing the movement dancing with the instructor (this one lowest / closest to our locomotive level). These info are/should be gradually transferred to our (low-level) locomotive system by a kind of reprogramming of that part of our brains and that process is relatively slow

In my opinion, explanations are indeed not very effective way of learning how to dance, because it is accepted by topmost levels that are far from our locomotive level. Perception is also problematic because we are frequently fooled by our eyes. Or we are not fooled, but demo is actually bad (and in case instructor notices that problem on the students not being aware they copied it from his bad demo and tries correcting it, is causing confusion). Dancing with instructor is fastest way to learn, as our locomotive system can perceive the movement directly. However, a good teacher will use and combine all methods to obtain the best result.
Click to expand...

Two questions from the above...

1) How can you increase the reprogramming speed as a student and as a teacher how can you increase the students uptake? Is this something you leave to the student? I have personally used emotions as a way to getting the message across in a far more speedy and effective manner, have you seen/used similar techniques?

2) Is dancing with the instructor really the fastest way to learn? From what I have seen most of the instructors when dancing with students are compensating for them i.e. ensuring that the students have a good time, but this does not necessarily helping them in the long run. I have seen a generation of dancers who believe that they are great dancers because they dance well with instructors, but actively avoid the average dancer. These are normally the dancers who blame everyone else first before looking at themselves. Is your experience here different?

T
 
toan-hoang said:
Two questions from the above...

1) How can you increase the reprogramming speed as a student and as a teacher how can you increase the students uptake? Is this something you leave to the student? I have personally used emotions as a way to getting the message across in a far more speedy and effective manner, have you seen/used similar techniques?

2) Is dancing with the instructor really the fastest way to learn? From what I have seen most of the instructors when dancing with students are compensating for them i.e. ensuring that the students have a good time, but this does not necessarily helping them in the long run. I have seen a generation of dancers who believe that they are great dancers because they dance well with instructors, but actively avoid the average dancer. These are normally the dancers who blame everyone else first before looking at themselves. Is your experience here different?

T
Click to expand...

Good questions. Well, I'm not a teacher (although I taught some small groups on advised-by-friend basis, mostly b/room), so I'll just give my non professional opinion. Terence would be the right person to answer of course

As about 1, I noticed that my best b/room teacher (who had some world top-class students) had a kind of hypnotic voice. In addition to his excellent explanations, I presume his voice had some influence in putting the students into almost a kind of trance, relaxing them and making things easier for them. When he was talking, there was always zero amount of chit-chat between the students (never happened in classes with other instructors), everybody were just listening - like in a church. And on classes with some bad teachers, it looked like nobody was actually listening to them so they frequently had to calm down the students.

As about 2, I noticed the same problem. So when I dance with beginner dancers on various practicing hours and I want they get something from dancing with me, I'm trying to gradually minimize the amount of my compensation for their errors. For instance, if they have bad balance and try to use my arms for help, my arms are gradually becoming softer and softer, so they are forced to stay on their own etc.

In addition to this, I think that students unfortunately can get only part of needed info through dancing with the instructors. So demo and explanations are needed to fill the gap, although they are slower I think
 
vit said:
As about 1, I noticed that my best b/room teacher (who had some world top-class students) had a kind of hypnotic voice. In addition to his excellent explanations, I presume his voice had some influence in putting the students into almost a kind of trance, relaxing them and making things easier for them. When he was talking, there was always zero amount of chit-chat between the students (never happened in classes with other instructors), everybody were just listening - like in a church. And on classes with some bad teachers, it looked like nobody was actually listening to them so they frequently had to calm down the students.
Click to expand...

It is not about professional or not, but it is always good to read someone opinions.

I had a chat with Mr Mambo when I was in DC and the line that stuck in my head was the fact that counting isn't bad, but we don't count rhythmically. Like your hypnotic voice which calms, relaxes and helps the learning process, I have always wondered if counting rhythmically would actually give as sense of rhythm into your students... another conversation for another day I guess :)
 
In my opinion, main goal of a dance teacher is to somehow 'reprogram' a locomotive system of a student, so it can work without much thinking on upper level (as it is too slow), but in harmony with a music and the partner. Dancer doesn't need to be aware of how he is doing what he is doing (in technical terms) and many of them are not - many excellent dancers are indeed not good teachers - they are not able to describe how they dance and transfer their dancing knowledge to other people

Problem is that locomotive system can't be reprogrammed in a way that you put a CD with new firmware in someone's head and push the button. It can be attacked only with various indirect methods like those we already mentioned above - some of them faster, some of them slower, none of them universal. So here are many little tricks how to do it - good teachers with decades of experience know which of them work and which of them don't etc and which one is suitable for particular problem. And that's where are the differences between a good and bad teacher.
 
I think that learning to dance is a lot like learning to drive a car with a manual transmission (stick shift). There is a certain amount of and intellectualism before you first try. Your mind intellectually understands that the clutch must be depressed to get the car in gear. But it is the repeat, repeat, repeat of hearing the gears grind that allows you finally get it in gear. I think toan-huong may be on to something with his idea that strong emotions help speed or imprint a learned behavior - in this case it is the loud, horrible and embarrassing sound of the gears grinding. If that doesn't motivate you to improve your shifting nothing will!! The fortunate thing in learning to drive a stick shift is that there is instant (and very negative) feedback if you do it wrong.

The concept of muscle memory I think is key. If you repeat any action over and over, you get to the point where you no longer have to think about it. It passes out of the realm of conscious control into the realm of unconscious muscle memory. In learning to shift, if you are having difficulty getting it correct, an explanation will point you in the right direction, but ultimately it is trial and error and repetition to the point where the damn gears stop making that awful noise. It takes no Einstein to learn stick shift - everyone eventually gets it, except those few who give up, concluding it is impossible for them to succeed (there is clear salsa implication here!)

With regard to dance, I am a person who learns much more effectively with a little explanation, repeat, repeat, repeat; a little more explanation, repeat, repeat, repeat; tweak this, repeat, repeat,repeat; tweak that repeat, repeat repeat. Lengthy explanations get in the way for me. Learn one thing well, then add another, then add another. But it is the practice, not the explanation that allows you to own it.

One main difference in learning to dance as compared to learning to shift is that the loud grinding noise does not exist in the dance
(with a few notable and memorable exceptions!!), so the problem in learning to dance is that it is up to the teacher, or ultimately the Universe, to point out when a dancer is not getting it as right as it could be. Mirrors can be a big help here, or self -videos, or RPFS (Repeated Pattern Failure Syndrome). A good teacher can instantly identify the point to be improved, and then has the tools in his or her teacher's toolbox - humor, pantomime, ability to demonstrate, skillful use of metaphors and imagery, the ability to relate to dancers' stages and anxieties - to get the job done. Because there are so many ways to teach, yes,it is very true that a good dancer does not necessarily a good teacher make. I tend to think a dancer who is of moderate skill but a great teacher trumps a dancer of great skill but of moderate teaching skill. At least for beginners and improvers.

Many people don't want to know how bad they are dancing, and like the Pope say, who are we to judge?
Ultimately it is the teacher's task to know the student well enough to know what it is they want to learn, and how much they are willing to pay for it (I'm not talking cash here). I think a lot of teachers neglect this important point and project their own expectations and definitions of "dancing good" and the mismatch between students' and teachers' expectations ends poorly.

Interesting thread, made me think. I'll sleep on it tonight.
 
I don't think its emotion, but using something funny/interesting makes it stands out in your memory.

For example Frankie Martinez refers to the core as the fire ball. Not really funny, but it does stick out and made me remember it above all else.
 
One often overlooked advantage to teaching the concous parts of the brain is that it can act as a guide to correct the locomotive parts during practice.most students don't practice, so ths method is ignored by most teachers.
 
Smejmoon said:
( Did you know the right click is disabled on that page? )

I managed to get that page to Kindle and read later. This System1/System2 theory is interesting. Parts of it seem to be true, parts feel like oversimplification.
Click to expand...

Yep, right clicking is disabled on purpose, there was a reason for this that now escapes me... I think it was to a simple measure to protect our video and online system.

I would highly recommend the book if you have the time and it should be available on Kindle.

I am sure there are far more comprehensive text and white papers there that go into more depth on the subject. The author made created this simple analogy to make this information more accessible.

Over the past 5 years since I transitioned into the role of instructor and promoter these topics have been far more interesting for me to tackle.
 
I'm actually reading that book right now. But dance perspective makes it more interesting. Thank you guys for touching the subject.
 
I dont experience emotion. Maybe thats why I learn slowly. :)

More seriously, I dont process well on the visual / demonstrate / copy level at all. I can barely do it if the instructor is oriented in the same direction, although with much difficulty. Everyone else even beginners seem to be able to copy 4-8 eight-counts of patterns and I struggle with more than 2. And if the instructor is facing me, I struggle to even do 1.

I also dont process well at the locomotion and movement level. I really only process well at the explanation/words level, and then I have to push that straight down to the locomotion / body / muscle memory level. And that level doesnt like people, least of all me, telling it what to do. :)

Bottom line: I cant see it and then do it; and I cant do it and feel it until I understand it completely at the explanation level. Its very frustrating.

Still, I have fun, so its all good I suppose. :)
 
Actually, I also started that way when I was a kid back in my b/room days. I was more thinking person than I'm now. But, on our trainings, we didn't get much theory, probably because trainers thought we were too young. So I was asking much, bought b/room books etc. However, gradually I accepted more intuitive way of thinking, while at the same time as I progressed I was getting more and more dance theory. Finally, I started getting a feeling that this whole dancing theory isn't that useful to me as I thought at the first place ... especially after an old professor on the university told us this during one lesson: "as engineers, you have to be able to predict the result at the 5% tolerance without calculation. Calculation is there just to make sure you are right and to get more precision of the result". Well, although this was oversimplification, I got the point.

If upper levels of your mind dominate over low levels, it doesn't mean it can't be changed. Just try switching them off from time to time by trying not to think in a form of sentences for a while, so bottom levels of your mind get more chance to take over ...
 
Slowdance said:
More seriously, I dont process well on the visual / demonstrate / copy level at all. I can barely do it if the instructor is oriented in the same direction, although with much difficulty. Everyone else even beginners seem to be able to copy 4-8 eight-counts of patterns and I struggle with more than 2. And if the instructor is facing me, I struggle to even do 1.

Bottom line: I cant see it and then do it; and I cant do it and feel it until I understand it completely at the explanation level. Its very frustrating.

Still, I have fun, so its all good I suppose. :)
Click to expand...

There are learning styles that have to be learned. What you are describing is that you are not as good as you would like to be at tasks that require spatial/visual interaction.
The problem with learning speed is that words have to be translated into spatial terms and then acted upon and all has to happen in real time. Because language and voice has to be interpreted and judged for content and meaning, therefore the process is naturally much slower.
People who have learned how to bypass the language/voice / interpretation/ judgement complex find that they are able to "short-circuit" directly to spatial tasks.

The key is that the learning process itself has to be 'learned'.

A really easy way to see this in action is to watch professional dancers (who might be performers in classical ballet or similarily advanced genre) pick up a new dance even though they have no idea what the music or rhythm structure is. They learn simply by copying and their body control is so good, they can emulate any movement just by seeing once. The strange thing is that when one dances with them socially, they don't actually know the dance at all, they have only been emulating it for a performance.
 
Right. I have been taking salsa classes for 2.5 years, and prior to that I did ballroom for 1.5 years, and I still dont learn that way. Most new dancers seem to, at least to some degree. It just hasnt worked for me yet. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top