The Salsa-Timba Debate

David

David

Administrator
Staff member
So I'm just going to throw out a few points about my basic understanding of this, and hopefully you can help me to make this an interesting topic...

As I understand, "Salsa" is a term that is more reflective of the commercialization of Latin music, perhaps having some roots on the commercialization side with groups like Fania All-Stars. And Salsa is more inclusive of the overall Latin American diaspora, in other words, the roots might be thought to be more geographically diverse. Many will say that Salsa is too commercialized, and lacks musical innovation. Perhaps the music is too simple, and with no innovation, might be starting to be for the "old generation".

But "Timba" is more of a Cuban concept, and perhaps is thought to be more complex, and perhaps innovative. Maybe it could be said that Timba has stayed true to its Cuban roots, with more complex arrangements and rhythms, that even change withing a song. There can be more improvisation, just as in a jazz arrangement. Some say that Timba can be too complex and disjointed, making it difficult for dancers. But Timba's complexity and innovation, the music is always fresh, with new energy and ideas, and perhaps is more the future.

There is a lot I don't know, and I'm sure the two stories are intertwining, and perhaps it is difficult to know the difference between the two in many cases, but maybe we can discuss which bands would be more "salsa" and which would be more "timba".

Some Salsa band examples.
  • El Gran Combo de Puerto Rico
  • Willie Colón & Héctor Lavoe
  • Grupo Niche
  • La Sonora Ponceña
Some Timba band examples:
  • NG La Banda
  • Charanga Habanera
  • Havana D’Primera
  • Pupy y Los Que Son Son
  • Manolito y Su Trabuco
And as I understand Los Van Van started out more as a Salsa band, but later become more known for their Timba sound.
 
Haha nice try to generate engagement :P

There are very detailed threads on evolution of Timba in Cuba and @timberamayor has documented a lot including videos and interviews.

Similarly @Richie Blondet and others have written about use of salsa and when it became prominent.

SF probably has the best content when it comes to the historical explanations of the like your post raises.
 
David said:
So I'm just going to throw out a few points about my basic understanding of this, and hopefully you can help me to make this an interesting topic...

As I understand, "Salsa" is a term that is more reflective of the commercialization of Latin music, perhaps having some roots on the commercialization side with groups like Fania All-Stars. And Salsa is more inclusive of the overall Latin American diaspora, in other words, the roots might be thought to be more geographically diverse. Many will say that Salsa is too commercialized, and lacks musical innovation. Perhaps the music is too simple, and with no innovation, might be starting to be for the "old generation".

But "Timba" is more of a Cuban concept, and perhaps is thought to be more complex, and perhaps innovative. Maybe it could be said that Timba has stayed true to its Cuban roots, with more complex arrangements and rhythms, that even change withing a song. There can be more improvisation, just as in a jazz arrangement. Some say that Timba can be too complex and disjointed, making it difficult for dancers. But Timba's complexity and innovation, the music is always fresh, with new energy and ideas, and perhaps is more the future.

There is a lot I don't know, and I'm sure the two stories are intertwining, and perhaps it is difficult to know the difference between the two in many cases, but maybe we can discuss which bands would be more "salsa" and which would be more "timba".

Some Salsa band examples.
  • El Gran Combo de Puerto Rico
  • Willie Colón & Héctor Lavoe
  • Grupo Niche
  • La Sonora Ponceña
Some Timba band examples:
  • NG La Banda
  • Charanga Habanera
  • Havana D’Primera
  • Pupy y Los Que Son Son
  • Manolito y Su Trabuco
And as I understand Los Van Van started out more as a Salsa band, but later become more known for their Timba sound.
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I thought los van van was more Songo than salsa, but I'm not too experienced with old Van Van yet.
 
1derpalm said:
I thought los van van was more Songo than salsa, but I'm not too experienced with old Van Van yet.
Click to expand...
well just to complicate things song can be thought of as part of the "timba" umbrella, just like son and guajira and mambo are"salsa" :) And yet they are distinct things as well.

Kind of as the famous US Supreme Court saying that it can be hard to define pornography but you know it when you see it LOL
 
Offbeat said:
Haha nice try to generate engagement :P

There are very detailed threads on evolution of Timba in Cuba and @timberamayor has documented a lot including videos and interviews.

Similarly @Richie Blondet and others have written about use of salsa and when it became prominent.

SF probably has the best content when it comes to the historical explanations of the like your post raises.
Click to expand...

That’s fine. I’d love to link to those from this thread. It’s not just engagement, but there are a lot of things that average people will search for and find our site, so it’s good to have some threads with good titles, and it will help people find what they are looking for, and probably increased engagement too.
 
I think it's important to keep in mind that the timeline is important for the history of salsa and timba. Salsa's big heyday is generally considered to be the 70s while timba's is the 90s. Different things were going on in Cuba versus the rest of the world after the revolution and the trajectories of the music, which used to be very influenced by lots of comings and goings between Cuba and the US and Mexico, separated.

One of the main features of older timba especially a heavy funk influence. That may be why you can usually tell Cuban horn lines from non-Cuban pretty easily.

I think in Cuba in the 70s when salsa was at it's really innovative point I think Cuba was either still doing more traditional music or bands like Van Van were experimenting, but it wasn't very much like what we would thing of as música bailable.


I think one of the nice things with timba is that they got back towards música bailable but also mixed in more Cuban rhythms so it wasn't so pop-ish as the early "songo"

EDIT: So I guess my point is that each style had their innovative moment, but at different times. Timba is generally more rhythmically complicated than salsa. But then within timba ach band has it's style. Like songo for Van Van. Manolito is very son and yet timba. la Charanga Habanera back in the 90s was real hard core timba. they are ore timbaton now from what I see. To be honest I don't really keep up with them anymore. Bummer because at one time they were my favorite band.
 
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timberamayor said:
I think it's important to keep in mind that the timeline is important for the history of salsa and timba. Salsa's big heyday is generally considered to be the 70s while timba's is the 90s. Different things were going on in Cuba versus the rest of the world after the revolution and the trajectories of the music, which used to be very influenced by lots of comings and goings between Cuba and the US and Mexico, separated.
Click to expand...

Salsa's heyday was 70s for salsa dura and 80s for romántica. In terms of sales I think the big romántica hits may have sold way more than the 70s hits. Or maybe all the guys bought salsa in the 70s and the women bought it in the 80s, so the sales numbers were equal. Tracks like Lluvia by Eddie Santiago must have sold millions and millions throughout Latin America.

timberamayor said:
I think in Cuba in the 70s when salsa was at it's really innovative point I think Cuba was either still doing more traditional music or bands like Van Van were experimenting, but it wasn't very much like what we would thing of as música bailable.
Click to expand...

I know some will insist that there was plenty of son in Cuba in the 70s, but there really wasn't. Or maybe there was on a street level, but certainly the number of artists recording son in Cuba from 1965 to 1979 was relatively tiny. A few influential bands, most famously Van Van, were as you say experimenting and laying the ground for the timba explosion of the 90s.

Was the 70s experimental stuff danceable? I would say yes, but not if you want to dance casino or salsa. I very much doubt that many people were dancing casino socially at the time. In Cuba or anywhere else. (Look at any film of Cubans social dancing in Cuba or the US in the 70s or early 80s and casino is notable by its absence.)

The few NY bands that covered 70s Cuban tracks (La Típica 73 is the only one I can think of) would slow them down and make them more danceable for salseros' requirements. And even then such tracks often weren't that successful.

In the 80s Son 14 appeared, Oscar de León played live in Cuba and NY/PR salsa romántica became popular in Cuba so son/son-based music was revived on home turf, plus the TV show Para bailar casino helped revive the dance or at least expose it as a social dance not just something for competitions.
 
DJ Yuca said:
I know some will insist that there was plenty of son in Cuba in the 70s, but there really wasn't. Or maybe there was on a street level, but certainly the number of artists recording son in Cuba from 1965 to 1979 was relatively tiny. A few influential bands, most famously Van Van, were as you say experimenting and laying the ground for the timba explosion of the 90s.

Was the 70s experimental stuff danceable? I would say yes, but not if you want to dance casino or salsa. I very much doubt that many people were dancing casino socially at the time. In Cuba or anywhere else. (Look at any film of Cubans social dancing in Cuba or the US in the 70s or early 80s and casino is notable by its absence.)
Click to expand...

You seem to have some weird obsession going on with having to call Cuban music contemporary to NY salsa irrelevant...

Anyway this looks a lot like everyone dancing casino at mid 70s live Irakere

 
DJ Yuca said:
Salsa's heyday was 70s for salsa dura and 80s for romántica. In terms of sales I think the big romántica hits may have sold way more than the 70s hits. Or maybe all the guys bought salsa in the 70s and the women bought it in the 80s, so the sales numbers were equal. Tracks like Lluvia by Eddie Santiago must have sold millions and millions throughout Latin America.
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OK so we have a different idea of what "heyday" means.

I guess my idea of a heyday means something innovative, something that moves the genre forward, not just the number of sales. Salsa romantica for me was a decline in the quality of the music. Easy-to-like pop-like ballads but nothing much to develop the genre, if anything just a move sideways. I will admit I like some romantica songs. A lot of what Leoni Torres does is basically pop ballads with son and I really like some of his songs, but that doesn't mean I think that Cuban music itself is being positively developed by it. He may bring in many new fans with his romantica, but that hardly makes it a heyday for Cuban music.
 
Gaviota said:
You seem to have some weird obsession going on with having to call Cuban music contemporary to NY salsa irrelevant...
Click to expand...
The history of Cuban music is complicated and often mistold. I'm just trying to find out what really happened based on the evidence available. In the 1960s and 1970s son lost its popularity in Cuba and there were very few son-based artists recording. There are numerous quotes from Cuban musicians who were on the island in the 60s and 70s stating that US rock and pop was far more popular in Cuba at that time, and son was seen as passé.

At the same time a small number of artists in Cuba certainly did pioneer an updated version of son-based music, which was considerably different to the NY sound of the time (and is not considered danceable nowadays). They were pioneers and in Van Van's case they became very popular, anticipating and paving the way for the success of timba in the 1990s.

The experimental NY band La Típica 73 took inspiration from the new breed of Cuban songo bands, covering the likes of Van Van and I think Orquesta Ritmo Oriental. They even went to Cuba to record an album (and their leader Johnny Rodriguez made a number of trips to Cuba).

As for casino, I've heard it was a thriving competition dance but far less common as a social dance until son-based music became popular in Cuba again in the 1980s. I've also read that it was only popular in black barrios until the early 1980s. The reason it became more popular in the 80s was due to Cubans finally getting into salsa thus needing to be able to dance to it.

Gaviota said:
Anyway this looks a lot like everyone dancing casino at mid 70s live Irakere


Click to expand...

It really doesn't. The cameraman/woman focuses on a small group of people: 3 couples doing a rueda and 2 couples dancing casino not in a rueda. 10 people. Nice find though. It confirms that casino existed as a social dance in Cuba in the 1970s. Similar to this clip really: Van Van live in Cuba in 74 - wait long enough and you will see one or 2 couples dancing casino:

 
timberamayor said:
OK so we have a different idea of what "heyday" means.

I guess my idea of a heyday means something innovative, something that moves the genre forward, not just the number of sales. Salsa romantica for me was a decline in the quality of the music.
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I've looked at 2 online dictionaries and they both confirm that my usage of heyday is correct. You're referring to salsa's creative peak.

The 80s were a period of commercialisation for salsa, some great artists suffered whilst romántica was at its peak and lots of bland, forgettable music was released. There were also innumerable killer salsa tracks released in the 80s. Some salsa romántica, others not.

For me personally, I would say salsa's creative/aesthetic peak was the 70s and 80s. And for Cuban music in NY the creative peak is 1940s through to 1970s. The 1980s may have been better for PR and S American salsa.
 
DJ Yuca said:
Salsa's heyday was 70s for salsa dura and 80s for romántica. In terms of sales I think the big romántica hits may have sold way more than the 70s hits. Or maybe all the guys bought salsa in the 70s and the women bought it in the 80s, so the sales numbers were equal. Tracks like Lluvia by Eddie Santiago must have sold millions and millions throughout Latin America.
Click to expand...

The Salsa Erotica of the 1980s definitely outsold the "Classic Salsa" era of the 1970s and every other era before that. Record distribution had increased and expanded by then. But even if distribution was limited, Salsa Erotica, and the Salsa Romantica of the 1990s would have still outsold the 1970s Salsa by miles.

What you might call "hard core Salsa" has always been a niche market. It's never been commercial in the U.S. Cali, Colombia is the only city in the world who have embraced it as relevantly "commercial" in a local popular sense. But, by and large, the so-called "Salsa" Explosion that took place in the aftermath of the Fania All-Star concert at the Cheetah is a myth. The SIEMBRA LP was the only album during the "Salsa" era that ever came close to achieving commercial success.
DJ Yuca said:
I know some will insist that there was plenty of son in Cuba in the 70s, but there really wasn't. Or maybe there was on a street level, but certainly the number of artists recording son in Cuba from 1965 to 1979 was relatively tiny.
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Look at it from the POV of today. In the U.S., Puerto Rico and elsewhere, the number of artists recording "Salsa" is smaller than it ever was since before the advent of the recording industry becoming viable. The reasons are obviously connected to the fact downloading and music becoming far more accessible than ever diluted and destroyed the production output. No one makes $$$ from it. On top of a whole new generation opting for Reggaeton as the music that represents their voice.

None of that equates to "Salsa" not existing in abundance. There is still very much an active scene. Despite the lesser production output. The same can be applied to Cuba in the 1970s. The more then-recent groups were doing new things. But you still had musicians interpreting Son-based music. It just wasn't being documented thecway it is now. With cell phone cameras, etc. There are collectors who made their waybto Cuba in the 1970s, and conducted amateur field recordings. Preserving those Sones being interpreted by the old guard and a new generation. They just weren't made commercially available.
 
DJ Yuca said:
I know some will insist that there was plenty of son in Cuba in the 70s, but there really wasn't. Or maybe there was on a street level, but certainly the number of artists recording son in Cuba from 1965 to 1979 was relatively tiny. A few influential bands, most famously Van Van, were as you say experimenting and laying the ground for the timba explosion of the 90s.


In the 80s Son 14 appeared, Oscar de León played live in Cuba and NY/PR salsa romántica became popular in Cuba so son/son-based music was revived on home turf, plus the TV show Para bailar casino helped revive the dance or at least expose it as a social dance not just something for competitions.
Click to expand...
Son 14 debut was in 1978 in Santiago de Cuba. First album was 1979 (A Bayamo en coche).

Rumbavana was active, they recorded a young Adalberto Alvarez tune (Con un besito mi amor) in 1971
He also took over his fathers Orquesta Avance Juvenil and his music was definitely influenced by Chappotin.

So I can't say for certain that son was everywhere (Nueva Trova was big, as well as danzon/mambo), it was certainly around and being recorded. I'll look through my library and see what else was released around that time.
 
Yuca,

I thought about what you posed and asked around a few people who traveled there and were focusing on all things Cuban music in Cuba at that time, and they convinced me to lean towards what you assert. Not that Son didn't exist at the time, per se. But that the great majority of the local musical community viewed it as passe. Like how musicians in NYC view Boogaloo. Something that had it's time and was now over, as far as relevance. They said they wouldn't say Son was altogether absent. But that it was in most musician's rear view.
 
According to Juan Formel, there's no such thing as salsa in Cuba; it's a term for music produced outside the island and blending various influences from both Cuban and Latin music, and more...

I do believe, however, that timba originated in Cuba, although it is not played ONLY by Cuban bands and is mixed with many other genres, notably funk.

Funny, youtube showed me a video a few days ago of a pianist showing the (one of the...) instrumental difference between timba and salsa. I can't (enore) post a link, but the video is entitled: Salsa VS Timba Cubana. Cual es la diferencia?

​

 
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