The Roots of Salsa

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peachexploration

borikenSalsero said:
..The roots :cry: , not only the roots seem to have been forgotten, but also the lifestyle that followed them. Today, it seems that salsa is seen only dance...

No talk of roots, "dress codes", religious beliefs, knowledge, all seems to have been swallowed by the sea. Now, salsa is mentioned and seemingly all think of dance.

Where is the old lady dressed all in white? Where is the knowledge of what the "dialect" within salsa means? Where is the burning desire to be more than a dancer within Mambo? Where is the guaguanco, columbia, yambu feel of the dance? Where oh where I ask! where? :cry:
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I read the above quote again in the On1 or On2 thread and thought, "What a wonderful topic!" This aspect is definitely worth discussing and I didn't really think it belonged in the dance section because we're putting that aside for the moment. Now, I personally think one of the reasons it is thought of as just dance is because that's how it is presented to masses. Mostly, from the time you walk into your first dance lesson or see an advertisement, the last thing you learn about is the "Roots of Salsa". So lets discuss it. Any takers? :)
 
No takers yet? :lol: Let's start with discussing percussion. Okay, we'll keep out the "religious" aspect of it and will only use it as a reference in history. I found this site that has the following excerpt.

Afro-Cuban 6/8 feel, Bembe:
Some of the fundamental rhythms in West Africa are based on 6/8 feels. In Cuba, one popular 6/8 feel is known as bembe, originating from the world bembes, which are religious gatherings that include drumming, singing and dancing. There is an example of it for listening purposes here
Afro-Cuban Rhythms for Drumset-Chapter One This clip is called Afro-cuban 6/8 feel (Bembe) located under the first paragraph.

This example is played on a hoe blade, shekeres (hollowed-out gourds with beads loosely wrapped around them), and conga drums(tumbadoras). This feel, played in Cuba, is completely African in style and instrumentation. Similar rhythms are heard throughout West Africa, especially in Nigeria (the Yoruba tribes) where much of the African population in Cuba originated. You'll hear the entire feel, and then each instrument solo, to show how the individual parts interlock.


What do you think about or feel when you here these drums? Any disecting views? What do you think?
 
JaneMas, that is a great article. Thanks. :)


My purpose for this thread is to dig a little more into the music itself. Be a little more analytical towards the culture, the history and orgins of the instruments and how they were added, the culture, etc. Here's and example at our sister site (Dance Forums) The Roots of Salsa
 
Then I suggest you look at the Smithsonian's Institute's Latin Jazz Timeline! It shows you how the music came from HAITI. Of course this is early 1800's. From there it goes to Cuba. Without mentioning you know it already reached Mexico when it states it arrived in New Orleans via Mexican musicians. From that location and time you have the birth of Jazz itself by early experimentation of El Son. Meanwhile in PR you have similar rhythms called Plena and Bomba and El Seis which is similar to El Son like Plena is to Merengue. Meaning same thing different name given due to different location. But that's another story. In NYC the Son, which had by then developed to maturity, was explored further (explained in that article link) by NYC musicians. There is a story/song (recorded in Cuba by Cuban musicians) of Mama Teodora, a Dominican woman who brought with her El Son. Makes sense since Dominicans and Haitians have similar music. Ever seen the Haitians dance their Merengues? As far as instruments.....the big band orquestra setup came out of NY, while the conjuntos were standard in the Caribbean. Heavy brass (more than one of the same), especially trombones, was a Mon Rivera and Willie Colon idea. Latin Jazz besides the early experimentation in New Orleans was a marriage between Birdland and Palladium musicians who jammed together during afterhours.

jazzsmithsonian.org/latinjazz/latinjazz_education_tl.asp
 
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Fascinating :P

Now hold up a sec though. What exactly is latin jazz? I've heard local "jazz/latin" bands play salsa music, but it sounds like a straight up mesh of the clave and rhytm of salsa with everything else all out jazzy. Is this latin jazz or does it consists of a lot of more?
 
If you can Mambo to it..it's "Salsa" or etc...., usually termed as Latin Jazz. If you can't dance to it, then it's Jazz with a Latin tinge or tang. Most people mistake a tune that sounds Jazzy, Latin Jazz, and it's not. On one side it's just heavy on the Jazz tinge on the other side it's just heavy on the Latin tinge. I once bought a cd title "best of latin jazz" and I couldn't dance to it. It was Jazz with lots of Latin influence recorded by well known so-called latin jazz musician. I'm not against the word "Latin Jazz" In fact I like it. But it's not another Genre. It's just Latin Music taken to another level. I guess you could say it's being applied to both Jazz tunes as well a Latin tunes. Key is, if you could dance to it...it's still Mambo rooted and if you can't it's Jazz rooted.
 
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well, a latin jazz cd should be a jazz cd with a foundation of son and elements of afro-cuban percussion, that is what makes it latin-Jazz, the introduction of the clave, and percussion... Tito Punete played straight up Mambo-Jazz, which could also be said to be latin Jazz. the term is broad... Latin Jazz is jazz and latin music mixed together... once that happens the tune becomes latin jazz... as far as i understand it is its own genre as well... not all Jazz players can play latin jazz... the mounting of the clave back bone kills them..

Mongo santamaria plays a bunch of Latin Jazz and alot of his stuff is very much mambo dancable, still it isn't mambo with a touch of jazz but staright up Mambo-Jazz.... When salsa goes on a descarga that is a touch of Jazz... When the Sax goes on a side note, that is a touch of jazz as well, however it stays as a salsa as Jane mentions... Mongo Santamaria's Gabrielle is an example of dancable Latin Jazz...

anything broken down clearly enough with out any "avangard" jazz type of thing can be danced to. Descarga music also can't be danced to... A song that can be danced to isn't wild and loose, but rather somewhat structured and tight.

There is Jazz with a touch of latin... at times making it latin Jazz, some jazz can be danced to some can't. Most Jazz is a complex music meant as musicians music, which means you just don't dance to it, it is meant as listening music...

But stuff like Tito Puente's, mongo santamaria, ray barretto, is definitely dancable and considered latin jazz.
 
8) hmmm indeed. thankyou for that

I don't know about ya'll but I have a hard time dancing to latin jazz as in jazzy salsa. I know this one band that performs here in town, and I didn't really like them. That is a couple of months ago that is. You guys?
 
We have regular descarga sessions with our local Latin Jazz outfit 8) .

As Boriken explained, if it has a strong clave structure it can be danced to (same reason why we also love latin house :wink: ). If it goes into a frenzy we can still move & groove, riding on the energy.

It really isn't for everyone. You'd have to be in the mood too. IMHO this is an excellent opportunity to play with the music & have fun with shines 8) .
 
Yeah I can see that. It would be tight to kinda implement some blues moves if you ask me, I just don't know if that would be *ahem* "acceptable. You know like the move where the follow does a body roll and you both lean back in the hip to counter each others weight in *slow motion* kind of thingy. Yeah.. that'd be cool
 
Okay, no one has responded to this one in a couple of years now. :? I was watching a few video clips in the Ethiopian Salsa thread which were quite interesting. It brings me to this question: What exactly is Salsa, really? Well, to me the Salsa dance is not a "Salsa" dance unless it is done to Salsa music. Yes, sure you can dance to "any" music if it's the right tempo but if it's anything other that Salsa music, in my opinion the dancebecome Hustle, Swing or something else.

I was watching Soul Train a couple of years ago and they were featuring a couple dancing "Salsa" to one of PDiddy songs (or something like it). It really struck a nerve. I was like, "What Salsa"? I didn't hear any Salsa music in the background. No Larry Harlow, no Spanish Harlem Orquestra, no Jimmy Bosch or Hector Lavoe. Hustle maybe, but Salsa? You're kidding me, right? Now, it is true that Salsa has many elements of "other" dances. Not denying that. But for the dance to truly be called Salsa, I think at least the music should be Salsa as well. Which brings me to this question again: What is Salsa really as it pertains to the music? What are the fundamental elements of the music? Is it the Clave, Is it the Conga? Is mixing with raggaeton okay? What are the fundamental elements in your opinion for it to be truly called Salsa music.

Also, for a music reference see :arrow: Salsa Music Dictionary
 
peachexploration said:
I was watching Soul Train a couple of years ago and they were featuring a couple dancing "Salsa" to one of PDiddy songs (or something like it). It really struck a nerve. I was like, "What Salsa"?
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Heheh, you know those latinos who show up on the boards saying "I been dancing all my life and I never spun a girl. What I see now in so-called salsa is just spinning robots"?

Now you know how they feel :-)
 
What I see now is Salsa gone Ballroom! I use to shake my head, but now I'm well.... just acknowledging Ballroom is commercial performance, while salsa/mambo social is the beating heart.
 
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peachexploration said:
...Which brings me to this question again: What is Salsa really as it pertains to the music? What are the fundamental elements of the music? Is it the Clave, Is it the Conga? What are the fundamental elements in your opinion for it to be truly called Salsa music.
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You know something Peach, it's only after reading your question that I realised that the piano adds so much of the feel that is Salsa. Up until now (personally) it was an under appreciated element. It's usually understated except for during a solo but listening to a few tracks while writing this has made me realise that it is the glue that binds it all together. If you played the piano section on it's own you could say "Yep, that's Salsa", whereas if you played the bongos it could be anything. Could be House music, Disco, whatever. The piano rhythm is so distinctive that it screams Salsa when it is played.

Please bear in mind that I know very little about the history of the music at the moment. Will follow this thread and be educated.

peachexploration said:
Is mixing with raggaeton okay?
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When you say mixing are you talking about having the instrument sections sitting on top of a reggaeton rhythm? I'm ok with that and quite like it but nowhere near as much as a jazzy Mambo track with some serious percussion and improvisation going on. Not even close! I'm also ok with Reggaeton tracks being played during a Salsa night but no more than a couple if the Dj plans on playing Merengue as well. 30mins of non-Salsa is a long time when a social finishes at 12am. For longer nights a few more alternative tracks are ok and can break it up a bit.

sweavo said:
Heheh, you know those latinos who show up on the boards saying "I been dancing all my life and I never spun a girl. What I see now in so-called salsa is just spinning robots"?

Now you know how they feel :-)
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Can relate to that. By the fifth spin I've already switched to watching another couple dance. Just preference really, nothing personal against people that like to spin. Just pictured an entire crowd of dancers with all the guys standing leading the women in multiple spins with a look of dead serious concentration on their faces. Surreal! Somehow that scene wouldn't look out of place in a scene from Twin Peaks, but I digress.
(I can't lead multiples confidently yet so maybe some of that is spin envy,:oops: :) )


Great thread.
 
peachexploration said:
Salsa? You're kidding me, right? Now, it is true that Salsa has many elements of "other" dances. Not denying that. But for the dance to truly be called Salsa, I think at least the music should be Salsa as well. Which brings me to this question again: What is Salsa really as it pertains to the music? What are the fundamental elements of the music? Is it the Clave, Is it the Conga? Is mixing with raggaeton okay? What are the fundamental elements in your opinion for it to be truly called Salsa music.

Also, for a music reference see :arrow: Salsa Music Dictionary
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Music defines ALL dances-- after all, that is how we apply movement to interpret the rhythms within the musical structure .

It has been stated by many " No Clave -- no mambo" ( all salsa is mambo ).

If we can agree upon that-- then what do we add to the
musical "make up " ?-- Tumbao?-- of course .
It then depends on what type of Son we wish to impart thru the musical channel-- Guaganco, Guajira , etc. before we begin to add the other instuments to create a specific sound, and of course, musicians who are familiar with same .

We also have to decide in what timing do we score the music. and should we change the sequence during the course ? ( 3/2 to 2/3 etc. )-- see how complex this starts to become .?

I guess, bottom line-- without the accepted musical instruments and scores , that go to make up a specific type of Son., Mambo, Charanga, etc, then 4/4 time is essentially ,Swing, Foxtrot etc.

This , incidentally, is why pretty much why all bands that play for these TV deals, DONT play authentic Latin rhythms-- no instruments or scores , not to mention the average public may not relate to the real thing ( I happen to think that they would )
 
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