The problem of salsa for beginners

[Offbeat]

With respect to social dancing, I'm a little bit disappointed. I already went a year ago and thought with a better understanding of places and culture, I would enjoy more. But there seems to be actually less Salsa dancing than in my city Munich and connection when dancing is poor. People here have significantlly less eye contact when dancing and some girls really avoid it. That may be less important for Salsa and Bachata but in Casino or even Rumba, eye contact is essential. When looking for the next girl to dance with, my main criteria here is how much she looks at her dance partners. And except for the professional (Venezuelan) dancers, most people have a weired perception of dancing in Europe. Most people have no idea about parties and festivals in Europe and think that outside Peru/Latin America people cannot dance. And it happens from time to time that girls refuses to dance with me, sth. I'm not used to from Europe. I don't know if this is due to shyness or whatever.

I am surprised that you are surprised. I never been to S. America yet. I would be very surprised if your experience was any different than above.

It is not uncommon for Latinas and girls to turn down a dance invitation. You are living in a very different world if you think men don’t get said no.

May be you have unrealistic expectations. In S.America tothere is a distinct scene of the dancers who are trained and average people of the culture that like dancing.

With respect to dance level, it's difficult to compare because in Europe I either dance at home, where I know the good dancers, or at festivals, where the level is obviously higher than at normal parties. But while in Europe the dance level of girls tends to be higher than the level of guys, here the guys dance significantly better than the girls.

There are good EU leaders but as a percentage of total leaders or dancers, it is a lot small compared to anywhere else - Asia, N. America, S. America. Closest scene to me which is least European in this regard is Paris. I think there are more high level leaders in the Paris scene than equivalent followers.

 

[Humpa]

What is Reparto? Have heard the term but not in a dance context.

A form of Cuban Reggeaton. As far as I know, the term comes from reparto as a poor quarter or hood. A "repartero" is someone poor in contrast to a "micky" who is posh.

 

[Offbeat]

Sure, there's a whole thread about it:

Svetlana Ray - Salsa Teacher

This is my review of Svetlana Ray, Salsa teacher and her marathons Originally, I wasn’t planning to take any of her paid marathons, but I changed my mind and decided to take one of her paid marathons after having done the free month long musicality Warm Up . My post about the free Musicality...

www.salsaforums.com

I remember that thread. I don’t think it squarely addresses the question posed in this thread.

She is definitely a very good teacher for the followers. I have known of her long before she became prominent. I have danced with several followers who trained with her and they are among my fav followers. Without exception they have their own individual style, solid technique, good body movement and good musicality. Long time back I stumbled upon her bite-size series of tips for the followers and was impressed by it. Though it was all in Russian, by watching you understood the common mistakes or habits she was correcting.

As for watching a video, identifying shortcomings, and prescribing corrections is an ability that some people have. Including many this forum over the years. They may not be instructors or teachers. It is a big misconception that only an instructor can have such a talent. I will trust good long time social dancers far more than 90% of the instructors. The vast universe of salsa instructors are more notable for what they do not know than what they know. As a tribe, they rank very low in competency and mastery over their subject matter. Yet label of an instructor magically bestow on them authority and talent by many salsa dancers. This is more true of girls than guys. I seen guys challenge or question an instructor’s abilities far earlier in the salsa journey (usually by 4th or 5th month).

Correcting someone’s technique and helping them get to the right way is very difficult without in person presence. There can be a lot of minor adjustments that are easier done in person and almost impossible to do remotely.

 

[Humpa]

I am surprised that you are surprised. I never been to S. America yet. I would be very surprised if your experience was any different than above.

It is not uncommon for Latinas and girls to turn down a dance invitation. You are living in a very different world if you think men don’t get said no.

May be you have unrealistic expectations. In S.America tothere is a distinct scene of the dancers who are trained and average people of the culture that like dancing.



There are good EU leaders but as a percentage of total leaders or dancers, it is a lot small compared to anywhere else - Asia, N. America, S. America. Closest scene to me which is least European in this regard is Paris. I think there are more high level leaders in the Paris scene than equivalent followers.

Yes, maybe my expectationswere unrealistic. To make it clear: I was talking about dance events whithin the dance scene where people somewhat know how to dance, not about normal clubs where people think they know how to dance but actually don't even know the dance scene exists.
I've heard that it's different in the salsa scene but in the European Cuban scene it's very unlikely that a girl turns down a dance invitation from someone they don't know just to dance with another guy. I do not ask twice and girls would run out of options soon if they behave like this.

 

[Smejmoon]

For me, @Offbeat ,salsa dancing in Lima is similar to NYC, just people are much younger. Some even look the same (lot of peruanos in nyc djing and dancing, i think).

 

[Humpa]

@Smejmoon
No idea how the NY scene looks like but I would expect it to be way more international than in Lima. Here in Lima I would say it's usually 95% Peruvians, 4% Venezuelans, and 1-2 tourists; and more men than women. And at least during summer more outdoor dancing than in clubs, with several Rueda groups spread around the city etc.

 

[DJ Yuca]

With respect to social dancing, I'm a little bit disappointed. I already went a year ago and thought with a better understanding of places and culture, I would enjoy more. But there seems to be actually less Salsa dancing than in my city Munich and connection when dancing is poor. People here have significantlly less eye contact when dancing and some girls really avoid it. That may be less important for Salsa and Bachata but in Casino or even Rumba, eye contact is essential. When looking for the next girl to dance with, my main criteria here is how much she looks at her dance partners. And except for the professional (Venezuelan) dancers, most people have a weired perception of dancing in Europe. Most people have no idea about parties and festivals in Europe and think that outside Peru/Latin America people cannot dance. And it happens from time to time that girls refuses to dance with me, sth. I'm not used to from Europe. I don't know if this is due to shyness or whatever.
With respect to dance level, it's difficult to compare because in Europe I either dance at home, where I know the good dancers, or at festivals, where the level is obviously higher than at normal parties. But while in Europe the dance level of girls tends to be higher than the level of guys, here the guys dance significantly better than the girls.

A lot of that is probably applicable to anywhere in Latin America. Certainly when I first danced in Colombia I found the minimal eye contact very noticeable.

Do you know if there are many venues that play salsa music i.e. little or no timba? Do you know if there are many dancers trained in linear style salsa? Do you know if son music is popular over there? Everything I read about Lima suggests timba/casino dominate.

 

[Humpa]

A lot of that is probably applicable to anywhere in Latin America. Certainly when I first danced in Colombia I found the minimal eye contact very noticeable.

Do you know if there are many venues that play salsa music i.e. little or no timba? Do you know if there are many dancers trained in linear style salsa? Do you know if son music is popular over there? Everything I read about Lima suggests timba/casino dominate.

Although I have been to Mexico and Colombia several times and to Ecuador and Brasil once, I cannot really compare because I only danced a little bit in Colombia, particularly in Barranquilla. In Barranquilla the social dancing thing doesn't really exist like this, because people go out as a couple or a closed group of friends. In Medellin there is a small Cuban scene with outdoor dancing. In Cuba the eye contact is very strong and girls are not shy to dance with everybody. My Venezuelan friends/teachers here say that it's a Peruvian thing and that in Venezuela it is normal to dance with everybody. My Venezuelan teacher told me that most girls here have a problem dancing Guaguancó due to its explicit nature. But than you go to a normal club, meet a girl and the rest of night she gives you a perreo show no European girl would dare to do...

Yes, there are also venues for US salsa. The biggest place for dancing in Lima is outdoor next to the Hotel Sheraton in La Victoria. Saturdays they have at least a Bachata group, a Salsa group and a Timba group. On Tuesdays, salsa dancers can go to Sargento Pimienta en Barranco.
With respect to concerts, you will find a lot of the typical Peruvian salsa which is somewhere in the middle. One of the currently most successfull Son formations, Septeto Acaray, plays several times a week. I saw them for free at Barranco Bar with Combinacion de la Habana (like a boy group playing simple Timba) and Vernis Hernandez (who worked a lot with Los 4) playng the same night.
And yes, you will also find a lot of teachers for linear Salsa. I cannot assess the quality but as linear Salsa does not depend on formally educated Cuban dancers, the quality may be higher than for Cuban. Famous Juan Camilo Diago from Cali lives and teaches for example in Lima, although I understand it's more a fusion style.
I don't think it's Cuban dominated but people are quite interested in Cuban music. It's normal to hear La Charanga Habanera or Los 4 in the radio or in clubs. Reparto is becoming also quite popular here.

 

[Smejmoon]

@Smejmoon
No idea how the NY scene looks like but I would expect it to be way more international than in Lima. Here in Lima I would say it's usually 95% Peruvians, 4% Venezuelans, and 1-2 tourists; and more men than women. And at least during summer more outdoor dancing than in clubs, with several Rueda groups spread around the city etc.

I don't mean nationalities, but dance level, attitude from women when they first see you, how many dangerous/clearly bad dancers there are, how youth strives to perform, etc. Also Lima and NYC has great food and very exciting live music scene.
And I'll gladly dance in Lima or NYC again, it's just dancing in European cities of comparable size is much better and usually people are disappointed first time since advertisement doesn't match the delivery.

 

[Offbeat]

For me, @Offbeat ,salsa dancing in Lima is similar to NYC, just people are much younger. Some even look the same (lot of peruanos in nyc djing and dancing, i think).

I assume you are talking about salsa socials that cater to the trained dancers? They do exist in Latin American cities. At least that’s what the dancers and followers from there tell me. @Humpa , I assume wasn’t talking about that scene.

 

[Humpa]

I assume you are talking about salsa socials that cater to the trained dancers? They do exist in Latin American cities. At least that’s what the dancers and followers from there tell me. @Humpa , I assume wasn’t talking about that scene.

Interesting. You make statements about dance scenes you haven't seen and my posts without having read them entirely.

 

[Offbeat]

Interesting. You make statements about dance scenes you haven't seen and my posts without having read them entirely.

I did read all your posts. It is clear that you are more focused on Cuban oriented dance styles.

 

[bailar y tocar]

Although I have been to Mexico and Colombia several times and to Ecuador and Brasil once, I cannot really compare because I only danced a little bit in Colombia, particularly in Barranquilla. In Barranquilla the social dancing thing doesn't really exist like this, because people go out as a couple or a closed group of friends. In Medellin there is a small Cuban scene with outdoor dancing. In Cuba the eye contact is very strong and girls are not shy to dance with everybody. My Venezuelan friends/teachers here say that it's a Peruvian thing and that in Venezuela it is normal to dance with everybody. My Venezuelan teacher told me that most girls here have a problem dancing Guaguancó due to its explicit nature. But than you go to a normal club, meet a girl and the rest of night she gives you a perreo show no European girl would dare to do...

Yes, there are also venues for US salsa. The biggest place for dancing in Lima is outdoor next to the Hotel Sheraton in La Victoria. Saturdays they have at least a Bachata group, a Salsa group and a Timba group. On Tuesdays, salsa dancers can go to Sargento Pimienta en Barranco.
With respect to concerts, you will find a lot of the typical Peruvian salsa which is somewhere in the middle. One of the currently most successfull Son formations, Septeto Acaray, plays several times a week. I saw them for free at Barranco Bar with Combinacion de la Habana (like a boy group playing simple Timba) and Vernis Hernandez (who worked a lot with Los 4) playng the same night.
And yes, you will also find a lot of teachers for linear Salsa. I cannot assess the quality but as linear Salsa does not depend on formally educated Cuban dancers, the quality may be higher than for Cuban. Famous Juan Camilo Diago from Cali lives and teaches for example in Lima, although I understand it's more a fusion style.
I don't think it's Cuban dominated but people are quite interested in Cuban music. It's normal to hear La Charanga Habanera or Los 4 in the radio or in clubs. Reparto is becoming also quite popular here.

First off, I have no knowledge of Peru or Lima.
I do know many many Peruvians who have moved to the US. With respect to people who got out to salsa socials or congresses and dance with everyone here in the US, Peruvians are on par with Colombians, Mexicans and possibly people originally from Ecuador, Dominican Republic and Panama. Meaning: they dance with everyone.
The most selective dancers (here in the US) are Cubans and Venezuelans. They mostly dance only with each other or with other dancers they know and have seen dance the style they like.

So, I have no idea what happened in Lima. It is the exact opposite of what would happen if you were to meet Peruvians, Venezuelans and Cubans at the same venue in the US. Are you 100% certain that the people you met were native to Peru? Peru has one of the largest immigrant communities from both Cuba and Venezuela.
I assume you are perfectly fluent in Spanish but are you perfectly fluent in distinguishing different accents? Peru accent in Spanish is extremely different from either Cuban or Venezuelan accents. The latter two are kind of ugly. Peru accent is fairly pleasant to hear.

Add: So when I have gone to dance at clubs in the Little Havana section of Miami, I would expect to get rejections from women who turn out to be of Cuban heritage unless they already know me from other venues elsewhere in the metro. When I do get dances in those clubs with Latina women I have never seen before in the scene, they usually turn out to be Colombian or Peruvian (or others as stated above).

 

[Humpa]

First off, I have no knowledge of Peru or Lima.
I do know many many Peruvians who have moved to the US. With respect to people who got out to salsa socials or congresses and dance with everyone here in the US, Peruvians are on par with Colombians, Mexicans and possibly people originally from Ecuador, Dominican Republic and Panama. Meaning: they dance with everyone.
The most selective dancers (here in the US) are Cubans and Venezuelans. They mostly dance only with each other or with other dancers they know and have seen dance the style they like.

So, I have no idea what happened in Lima. It is the exact opposite of what would happen if you were to meet Peruvians, Venezuelans and Cubans at the same venue in the US. Are you 100% certain that the people you met were native to Peru? Peru has one of the largest immigrant communities from both Cuba and Venezuela.
I assume you are perfectly fluent in Spanish but are you perfectly fluent in distinguishing different accents? Peru accent in Spanish is extremely different from either Cuban or Venezuelan accents. The latter two are kind of ugly. Peru accent is fairly pleasant to hear.

I have also Peruvians, Mexicans, Colombians and Cubans back at my parties in Germany and, once they are in scene, they do not behave different to the rest. The lack of eye contact during dancing in fact is sth. that a Peruvian friend who started dancing at my parties in Germany noticed when he was in Lima last year.
I do not ask everybody where they are from but I think I would be able to distinguish between Cubans, Venezuelans and Cubans in most cases by appearance. There are some Venezuelans at the Timba events but I didn't notice any Cubans. Venezuelans here are generally more open here but this will due to the mere fact that they are immigrants. I had one Cuban dancer in a Reparto class but by appearance I thought she was from the US. My own Spanish is a mixture between Andalusian and different Latin American variants, so I do not consider Carribean Spanish ugly.

 

[bailar y tocar]

I do not consider Caribbean Spanish ugly.

I did not state Caribbean Spanish (whatever that may be). I stated that Venezuelan and Cuban accents are ugly as compared to the Peruvian accent (which sounds neutral to me). Obviously there are confounding factors as the socioeconomic background of most recent Cuban and Venezuelan immigrants in the US is usually lower (hence more slang in their language use) than of people from Peru (who are mostly educated professionals).

 

[Humpa]

Caribbean Spanish - Wikipedia

Socio-economic caracteristics of immigrants in Germany coming from Colombia or Peru seem pretty similar to those of people coming from Cuba or Venezuela.

 

[MamboJazz]

I stated that Venezuelan and Cuban accents are ugly as compared to the Peruvian accent (which sounds neutral to me).

Ugly is a harsh word, let's say cuban spanish is hard to understand for people who learned spanish in other areas. I had some nightmare experiences trying to understand cubans. If I could choose for an evening conversation I would give all other nations a try before cubans.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Peru accent in Spanish is extremely different from either Cuban or Venezuelan accents. The latter two are kind of ugly.

I completely disagree re. Cuban and Venezuelan accents being ugly. In fact it's obvious from the extent of your generalisation that it's not going to be true, except in an entirely subjective way.

I did not state Caribbean Spanish (whatever that may be).

Caribbean Spanish is the language of the 3 Spanish-speaking countries found in the Caribbean, of which Cuba is one. They all have a relatively similar form of Spanish, so to say that Cuban Spanish is ugly automatically suggests that the Spanish of the other 2 countries must also be ugly.

I stated that Venezuelan and Cuban accents are ugly as compared to the Peruvian accent (which sounds neutral to me).

What do you mean by neutral? Why does not being neutral make a form of Spanish ugly? And surely finding Peruvian Spanish neutral is because it's more similar to what you've been exposed to for so many years i.e. the Colombian version.

Obviously there are confounding factors as the socioeconomic background of most recent Cuban and Venezuelan immigrants in the US is usually lower (hence more slang in their language use) than of people from Peru (who are mostly educated professionals).

So now you're talking about Latins from those 3 countries who are in the US, and not the accents of those countries in general? And you appear to state that working class people have an ugly accent and middle and upper class people don't. Which I would also disagree with.

Ime if someone speaks in an ugly manner it is usually due to the individual rather than where they are from or what class they are from, although obviously people with less education are far more likely to mispronounce words, use excessive slang etc. But even street language can be done in a pleasing or an ugly manner.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Ugly is a harsh word

Agreed.

let's say cuban spanish is hard to understand for people who learned spanish in other areas.

Agreed. Unless the person happens to have learnt in (or is from) another Caribbean country, or the Atlantic Coast or the Canary Islands. In which case Cuban Spanish will be easy. In fact there's so much variety within Spanish speaking countries that as re. the language of any country, it all depends on one's previous experience. For example someone from Cartagena in Colombia would probably find Cuban Spanish easier than the Spanish of Chile or Argentina. Someone from Spain (not the Canaries) might find them all a nightmare.

Regardless, Ime native speakers adjust quickly to accents they initially find difficult.

 

[twoleftfeetdancer]

Hi there! I'd like to share my thoughts and seek your advice.

I've made a few attempts to complete a salsa course for beginners, but I usually lose interest after the first month. It seems that most partners in the initial lessons have no dance experience, and it's their first foray into dancing.

I have many years of experience in other types of dances, so it's not engaging for me to dance with beginners. My goal is to pick up the basics and then move on to dancing at parties with partners who share the same enthusiasm. I believe in having the right to choose my dance partners and not feeling obligated to dance with those who don't inspire me.

This time, I was motivated to stick with it because the trainer seemed to be very supportive, and he is kind of a partner I would like to dance with and enjoy Salsa. However, the trainer now insist that I focus on the beginner partner for learning while we dance in pairs, which is challenging for me. I prefer learning from a good example to progress, not from someone who is just starting out.

Salsa is about sensation, sexuality, and vibes for me, and unfortunately, I can't feel that with beginners. I find it more of a struggle than a joy.

I want to dance with partners who interest me and who feel the excitement to dance with me and so I do as well dancing with them. However, I'm considering giving up again because I don't want to dance with beginners, and I'm not a fan of the trainer insisting that I look at the less experienced partners rather than looking at him.

I'm in doubt about how I can make my salsa experience more enjoyable, comfortable, and motivating to continue. I would appreciate advice from people who have faced a similar problem but found a solution and didn't give up on salsa.

I really don't want to give up again, but I also don't want to force myself into something I don't want to do and totally dislike. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Usually, they'll test your level to know which class is right for you.

They might offer you private beginner lessons first so you can learn the basics before joining an intermediate group class.