The key to having a flavorful basic.. do you care?

[Chris_Yannick]

I think the key is to practice in front of a mirror and repeat a lot!

Yes! I used to think that the basic would improve by default as a by-product of social dancing a lot, but progress was so slow and it started to lag behind my other skills so that's when I consciously made a decision to practice it in front of a mirror on a regular basis.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

There is nothing more attractive than someone that can move in a basic step with eye catching flavor. It is also not easy to obtain and requires a hell lot of practice

Agree. It is easier to cover up other faults in your dancing with a good basic so why not start with it? It's so much more difficult to fix the basic once you've been dancing the same way for a long time.

 

[TikiTaka]

It is easier to cover up other faults in your dancing with a good basic

Are you sure it's not the other way around?

 

[vit]

Some girls sure, guys seldom. Those that are into more traditional bachata songs tend to do less partnerwork and more focus on flavourful steps.

Yeah, I indeed had leaders in mind. Can't really imagine kiz or BS leaders with something I would call colorful basic

 

[jose armando]

The thing is.....you need to know what you ahould practice exactly. Having someone spend some time with you to show you body isolationa of the torso for example makea ALL the difference.
Then you practice and practice and practice.

 

[TikiTaka]

Well in order to look like the guys in the videos, obviously it will require a lot of practise.

In general i don't think it's necessarily about having the perfect technique though... plenty of street/club dancers develop (perhaps not always refined) flavourful steps naturally trough dancing. Not just in salsa and latin dances like cumbia and merengue but also other dances.

In the other thread there was a comment about a guy's poor basic steps. I think too much focus on partnerwork does that to people.

With that being said, i agree that drills are probably the most effective approach.

 

[Smejmoon]

In general i don't think it's necessarily about having the perfect technique though... plenty of street/club dancers develop (perhaps not always refined) flavourful steps naturally trough dancing. Not just in salsa and latin dances like cumbia and merengue but also other dances.

In the other thread there was a comment about a guy's poor basic steps. I think too much focus on partnerwork does that to people.

With that being said, i agree that drills are probably the most effective approach.

Thing is that you develop great basic naturally, if you just dance basic step with your grandma every week at barbecue. I've discovered plenty of moves through deep insight and experiment to realize that I've seen some untrained Venezuelan girl do it already.
Unfortunately we have these so called teachers and so called dvds and youtubes. They force us to go through patterns and spins and keep ourselves constantly rushing and out of balance. In this environment is much harsher to develop good basic, than when you are just chilling and grooving and you gota have smooth basic otherwise beer in your hand will spill out.

 

[Smejmoon]

Also if you create/discover/inherit/learn/copy great basic for yourself, it don't mean it will work with everyone else who has done it in another environment. Once you meet out of town dancers or travel to another village, you might realize adjustments are needed. Or not realize it.

 

[TikiTaka]

Also if you create/discover/inherit/learn/copy great basic for yourself, it don't mean it will work with everyone else who has done it in another environment. Once you meet out of town dancers or travel to another village, you might realize adjustments are needed. Or not realize it.

Agreed, but even if adjustments are needed, the flavour most likely won't dissapear. One of the most talented dancers i know dances mostly champeta (colombian dance), but learned to follow basic casino moves when she moved to europe. Might not be the best follower, but definitely very flavourful moves. I wish i had half or even a third of that flavour, lol

 

[Chris_Yannick]

In the other thread there was a comment about a guy's poor basic steps. I think too much focus on partnerwork does that to people.

Moving the arms while not moving the feet really is the most economical way to dance. My arms never get tired whereas my legs/feet get tired quickly.

The downside to trying to always dance with good basics/stepping motion is the energy drain. Constant stepping is energy consuming. Over the course of an evening, I am not able to maintain a consistent basic and it deteriorates quite badly. It could be that I haven't trained enough or that I need better conditioning. Also, there is something unnatural about dancing until the early hours of the morning. I have a new found respect for pros who train during the day, teach workshops, give performances at night and still manage to social dance late at night.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Agreed, but even if adjustments are needed, the flavour most likely won't dissapear. One of the most talented dancers i know dances mostly champeta (colombian dance), but learned to follow basic casino moves when she moved to europe. Might not be the best follower, but definitely very flavourful moves. I wish i had half or even a third of that flavour, lol

Yes. I do not believe in making adjustments to the point where you stop stepping completely. I truly believe that you can still maintain excellent connection with a partner and still have an amazing basic which is flavorful.

It takes more energy, but it's worth it IMO.

 

[LarsM]

The downside to trying to always dance with good basics/stepping motion is the energy drain. Constant stepping is energy consuming.

You lazy man you, think of all the follows who constantly move from end to end of the slot!

 

[Offbeat]

You lazy man you, think of all the follows who constantly move from end to end of the slot!

I was thinking the same in more serious vein.

I have a bit of hard time agreeing with the energy drain argument for not moving feet for precisely that reason. Are we saying that the followers have greater endurance or something about leading reduces endurance? May be there is an efficiency factor in how to step and move.

Someone at one time had posted about how many steps they took during 4 hours of dancing (either app or fitbit kind of device).

Doing back of envelope calculations:

1. 10,000 steps (2 feet to 2.5 feet) = 5 miles = 8Kms
2. Assuming you dance to an average 200 bpm song = average number of weight changes (1/4th are pauses), if you step/march every beat = 150 weight changes per minute.
3. However we know that we don't actually step 150 times in a minute. For most active leader who steps, a closer number of steps equivalent is more likely between 80 to 100 (skipping steps when leading things like turns, etc). Half of these are most likely in place. So hard to say if they are same as stepping forward or backward or sideways.
3. Average song of 5 minutes = 500 steps
4. Assuming you dance 50 minutes every hour = 5,000 steps = 2.5 miles = 4kms

That is equivalent of normal moderate pace of walking. I don't see most active dancer expending more energy than equivalent of walking at a moderate pace for 50 minutes.

People not in the best shape easily can do a 2-3 hours weekend hike on a flat terrain (in hot/warm weather). Dancers I think are in slightly better shape

 

[vit]

Yes. I do not believe in making adjustments to the point where you stop stepping completely. I truly believe that you can still maintain excellent connection with a partner and still have an amazing basic which is flavorful.

It takes more energy, but it's worth it IMO.

When it actually works, it feels great. But with most followers, you can't do it

If your stepping is well connected with your overall body movement (I assume that's meant as "amazing basic" and not something else), especially in more close connection, it requires follower which does it in compatible way. And many are actually not used to it, because they don't get it from most leaders.

If your leading is mostly isolated from your stepping and upper body movement is mostly a styling, which is reality in most of dances (depending on venue of course), it's much easier to maintain a good connection with wider range of followers (though leader's legs are mostly out of that connection)

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I was thinking the same in more serious vein.

I have a bit of hard time agreeing with the energy drain argument for not moving feet for precisely that reason. Are we saying that the followers have greater endurance or something about leading reduces endurance? May be there is an efficiency factor in how to step and move.

Someone at one time had posted about how many steps they took during 4 hours of dancing (either app or fitbit kind of device).

Doing back of envelope calculations:

1. 10,000 steps (2 feet to 2.5 feet) = 5 miles = 8Kms
2. Assuming you dance to an average 200 bpm song = average number of weight changes (1/4th are pauses), if you step/march every beat = 150 weight changes per minute.
3. However we know that we don't actually step 150 times in a minute. For most active leader who steps, a closer number of steps equivalent is more likely between 80 to 100 (skipping steps when leading things like turns, etc). Half of these are most likely in place. So hard to say if they are same as stepping forward or backward or sideways.
3. Average song of 5 minutes = 500 steps
4. Assuming you dance 50 minutes every hour = 5,000 steps = 2.5 miles = 4kms

That is equivalent of normal moderate pace of walking. I don't see most active dancer expending more energy than equivalent of walking at a moderate pace for 50 minutes.

People not in the best shape easily can do a 2-3 hours weekend hike on a flat terrain (in hot/warm weather). Dancers I think are in slightly better shape

There is a difference between a lazy stepper who is not fully committing to each step vs someone who is.

If you consciously try to step while dancing, slightly more energy will be needed to allow more weight transfers to take place. So you will exhaust yourself faster compared to a lazy dancer.

Also, I'm still in the process of refining my stepping and so I'm using a lot more energy/force to step than is otherwise needed. So sometimes my steps are more like stomps. The result is that I am tiring myself out a lot faster than usual. If you don't believe me, try stomping on the ground and see how long you last.

Another thing I neglected to mention is that I shine more than the average dancer. If I shine more than the average dancer, I'm going to tire out quicker. I expend a lot of energy shining - maybe 30% of my energy goes to shines.

If I decide to put my focus mainly on patterns (which will cause my stepping to worsen) and limit my shines, I will last a lot longer through the night.

 

[vit]

Also, I'm still in the process of refining my stepping and so I'm using a lot more energy/force to step than is otherwise needed. So sometimes my steps are more like stomps. The result is that I am tiring myself out a lot faster than usual.

Maybe you should try getting some ideas about that from "captain salsa"

 

[Chris_Yannick]

That is equivalent of normal moderate pace of walking. I don't see most active dancer expending more energy than equivalent of walking at a moderate pace for 50 minutes.

Question: do you consider this type of dancing 'active?'

For me, if I tried to move as much as Adrian is doing in his legs alone, I'd tire myself out in 30 minutes... 60 minutes tops.

It doesn't mean I'd be done dancing, but in order to continue I'd have to decrease the quality/frequency of steps.

There is a lot going on here. To maintain that flavor/movement in the basic step and continue to dance like that all night would be nigh impossible for me.

P.S. If I could dance like that even for one dance, I'd be very happy.

 

[jose armando]

She is doing more turns rhen him so it's more active for her..
Well I don't like the carper floor there

 

[vit]

3. However we know that we don't actually step 150 times in a minute. For most active leader who steps, a closer number of steps equivalent is more likely between 80 to 100 (skipping steps when leading things like turns, etc). Half of these are most likely in place. So hard to say if they are same as stepping forward or backward or sideways.
3. Average song of 5 minutes = 500 steps
4. Assuming you dance 50 minutes every hour = 5,000 steps = 2.5 miles = 4kms

That is equivalent of normal moderate pace of walking. I don't see most active dancer expending more energy than equivalent of walking at a moderate pace for 50 minutes.

Question: do you consider this type of dancing 'active?'

For me, if I tried to move as much as Adrian is doing in his legs alone, I'd tire myself out in 30 minutes... 60 minutes tops.

It doesn't mean I'd be done dancing, but in order to continue I'd have to decrease the quality/frequency of steps.

There is a lot going on here. To maintain that flavor/movement in the basic step and continue to dance like that all night would be nigh impossible for me.

P.S. If I could dance like that even for one dance, I'd be very happy.

It doesn't look like Offbeat's calculation is accurate for this clip. People walking moderately usually don't sweat that much (or at all). And we know that a number of leaders have a towel in back pocket (some actually using it a lot, some just as a fashion - which we discussed in one thread)

Interestingly, I don't remember any follower having a towel in back pocket (and recently many have some kind of back pockets for storing the phone), although many of them certainly move considerably more than the leaders

It's not easy to estimate how much energy is actually being used by watching the dance - it depends a lot. Performers usually try looking elegant and effortless, so they might be spending more energy than it looks like. Social dancers on the other side sometimes want tho show that they spend a lot of energy (even if most of it actually isn't spent most efficient way due to lack of technique), which is also connected with those towels ...

So some people probably spend 10x more energy per dance than other when dancing socially and the range is like from walking slowly to running quite fast ...

 

[TikiTaka]

Question: do you consider this type of dancing 'active?'

For me, if I tried to move as much as Adrian is doing in his legs alone, I'd tire myself out in 30 minutes... 60 minutes tops.

It doesn't mean I'd be done dancing, but in order to continue I'd have to decrease the quality/frequency of steps.

There is a lot going on here. To maintain that flavor/movement in the basic step and continue to dance like that all night would be nigh impossible for me.

P.S. If I could dance like that even for one dance, I'd be very happy.

At 15 seconds in that's more advanced than "basics" i'd say. His basic stepping when doing partnerwork i don't see why it would be tiring.