The First Salsa Music

Richie,

Tell me when they started to use the word "salsa" in New York!

What you described as far as the term being used in records [ex. Charlie Palmieri] precedes the recording you cited. I wrote it in my post that Marcelino Guerra drops the term "Salsa" in a song called BOB HARRIS, late 1940s. Two decades prior to "Salsa Na' Ma'." That term had always been used by musicians and repeated by their audience.

As far as it being described as an actual musical genre in New York, the late 1960s is when Latino NY'ers replaced the term "Latin Music" for "Salsa." The record companies followed.

Second, jamsessions are nothing new

I didn't write that in my post?

if you would read leonardo Acosta Descarga cubana: El jazz en Cuba 1950–2000, than you would see that's a very long Cuban tradition.

"Decargas" or Jam Sessions are not exclusive to Cuba, nor did they begin in 1950. I already alluded in my post to what Mario Bauza claimed how the song "Tanga" came about. Acosta's book is the Cuban experience on record. Cuba is Cuba. New York is New York. The latter of which has its own tradition of jam and cutting sessions via Jazz.

What is new is the use fo the Cuban rhythms of the 1950s chachacha, montuno, mambo, pachanga and last but not least elements of Cuban rumba (guaguanco, yambu and jiribilla).

As far as what? Meaning 'New' in the context of a jam session?

What is new in the 1960s, latin rock/Latin soul/free/fusion lain jazz even classical music is integrated in those descargas and that's something new, in Cuba Irakere did that. So the mambos of Tito Rodriguez and Joe Cuba based on fast played guarachas and the mambo of Mario Bauza Tanga changed a lot in the 1960s with a new generation and a new sound.

I'm sorry brother but that is wrong. What you define as Latin Rock was not new or was something that emerged in the 1960s. Rock N' Roll is a popular music from the 1950s. It did not take 10 years for latinos to catch up. Go and youtube Mambo Rock and see what comes up. Tony Martinez and Perez Prado were already experimenting such a thing.

Secondly, no one who came up in the '60s followed those people you mention. In fact, those same artists [Tito Rodriguez, Joe Cuba and Machito] switched gears in order to keep up and stay relevant. Tito became a pop singer. Joe Cuba struck gold with Boogaloo. The LP "Machito Con Soul" says it all. And it's all as a result of U.S. American culture and influence. It isn't until the rapers of Cuban music [FANIA] :D comes along and starts re-recording the music from the 40s and 50s.

You would be so surprised at what Chucho Valdes claimed regarding the formation of Irakere. Three things influenced him in particular to orchestrate Irakere when they emerged. Carlos Santana. Rafael Cortijo [specifically the LP "Time Machine."] and the Rock-Jazz Fusion happening in the states [Miles Davis, Joe Zawinul, John McLaughlin, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, etc.]

Even using these old songs they started to sound different....

Not really. Maybe in the format they were using. "La Cartera" by Arsenio goes from a Conjunto style to a Charanga version via Pupi Legaretta's band and later Orchestra Harlow. But it was still 'tipico'. Pacheco and Baretto were more amplified. But the instruments didn't make it overall radically different. The difference between the bands of the 50s in NYC was size and electricity. The bands iin the 70s went Electric. But they approached the music the same way the bands in the 40s and 50s did. A combination of Afro Cuban rhythms and Jazz elements.

The credit needs to go to those artists like Willie Colon, Ricardo Ray, Raphy Leavitt, Roberto Roena, Markolino Dimond, Ritmo Oriental, Los Van Van and composers and arrangers like Tite Curet Alonso and Jorge Millet who were truly experimenting and adding brand new sounds and cultural expressions from throughout the Americas.

But as RF Thompson said this second generation of Puerto Ricans still played Afro-Cuban music because THE SOUL OF SALSA is Afro-Cuban. Afro-Cuban music, deep in memory, divides into a rich array of genres—rumba guaguanco, son montuno, bolero, mambo, cha-cha-cha, pachanga, mozambique.The structure of groups is consisting of Cuban percussion instruments, and they use the tumbaos and guajeos which are Afro-Cuban.

Most of the time they did, sure. But sometimes, on those blue moons, they didn't. So what is it then? They're still recognized as Salseros.

My point in bothering with this repetitive debate is to keep stressing that "Salsa" and Cuban and Caribbean music, much like life, is not so easily defined in a nice neat package as how Prof. Thompson, you and a myriad of others attempt to explain it.

If you didn't live in and experience the New York scene during the time frames being discussed and are just going by book knowledge or contemporary articles people write, I'm afraid you're missing out on a lot as far as "the way it was..." in New York AND Cuba.
 
Blondie,

It is completely clear to me that it is difficult to accept that the heart and soul of salsa or afrocuban salsa is Cuban. Especially these days as also the mambo, chachacha and other afrocuban rhythms are almost monopolised by Puertoricans. But let me be clear when reggae-music is played by an Englishman and not played by a Jamaican we do not say it is not reggae, the same is true for Afrocuban salsa or music played by Puertoricans in New York, it is still Cuban music and it's stated by Tito Puente who said "I am not cook I do play Cuban music, I only use ketchup or tomato sauce (salsa) on my fried patatoes!"

As I said before the word salsa is a translation of the word sandunga and this word is long around in the Cuban music world, it's salt (sa) and peper (ndungu) both are symbols of Cuban music. Cuban rumberos are using it for centuries to life up their improvisations and a lot of the improvisations/descargas used by Puertoricans in New York are derived from Cuban Rumba, which they copied a lot.

What we see during the 50s and 60s is using the improvisational part of the Cuban rumba, the montuno and mambo sections, to live up the music in Cuba and in New York and all those Puertorican musicians of the 50s and early 60s produce descargas together with Cubans (i.e Mongo Santamaria) and Afro-Americans even Jews (Barry Rogers) to produce NY descargas based on these Cuban models/improvisational parts.

If you look at the LP of Charlie Palmieri Salsa Na Mas (1961) you see pachanga, chachacha, mambo and what he calls a 'salsa' is a Cuban Son Montuno, played in a Cuban Charanga-style!

If you want to know how much Cuban music has influenced the creation and development of Jazz, read Chris washburne "the clave of Jazz" and how much it influenced the creation of Latin Rock (R&B Montuno-Mambos) Funk, Bugalu, Hip Hop and much more, the artcile of Ned Sublette will do "the Kingsmen and the chachacha".

Puertorican musicians use a deep fountain or are standing on a high mountain, and that's called Cuba or better Afro-Cuba, Santeria included!

The mountain/Monte is Cuba!
Edsel
 
Blondie,

It is completely clear to me that it is difficult to accept that the heart and soul of salsa or afrocuban salsa is Cuban.

My name is Richie. But you can call me SIR. Furthermore, and as usual amongst the Cubaphiles in this group, you're stating and arguing something that has no basis other than the typical need for public recognition. The heart of Salsa is Cuban. But its also north American by way of Jazz, which was developed here in the USA. The thought process behind "Salsa" music has many layers and textures. It's something you're never going understand because the NY experience is alien to you and you have to conjure up your own interpretation because your Cuba-centrism won't allow you to have a larger perspective of how culture comes about.

The soul of "salsa" is African. Something that your kind just loves to omit time and again. It also happens to be a statement the person responsible for your favorite quote [Tito Puente] uttered more than once. But you don't focus on that, right? Just what suits you and your vision of what you would like others to think about how this music is interpreted and is rooted in overall and across the board.

We're not all stupid out here Ed.

Especially these days as also the mambo, chachacha and other afrocuban rhythms are almost monopolised by Puertoricans.

Wrong again. It's not "these days." Try ALWAYS. It certainly hasn't been the Cubano community, then or today. In fact, I would say non-Cuban overall. Why do you think all the greats like Benny More, Perez Prado, Arsenio, Miguelito Valdes and others made their way and their careers outside of Cuba? I'm sure you're going to avoid this question like you've managed to side step everything else and claim that I'm just in denial. And that's fine. Which goes to show how much thought and research you've put into this subject.


But let me be clear when reggae-music is played by an Englishman and not played by a Jamaican we do not say it is not reggae, the same is true for Afrocuban salsa or music played by Puertoricans in New York, it is still Cuban music and it's stated by Tito Puente who said "I am not cook I do play Cuban music, I only use ketchup or tomato sauce (salsa) on my fried patatoes!"

When Reggae has another element used, it IS called something else. Rapping over a Reggae beat is Reggaethon. When the Rock group NO DOUBT sings over a Reggae beat, is their music referred to as Reggae? When a Reggae artist sings a few verses in a Mariah Carey or Beyoncé song, is their music branded as Reggae?

Sorry, but despite what you think Tito was referring to, a good chunk of his music was modernized, progressive and unlike anything happening in Cuba, then or NOW. The music speaks for itself. You could take your quotes, along with your books and throw 'em away. You obviously did not read them or failed to comprehend them.

As I said before the word salsa is a translation of the word sandunga and this word is long around in the Cuban music world, it's salt (sa) and peper (ndungu) both are symbols of Cuban music. Cuban rumberos are using it for centuries to life up their improvisations and a lot of the improvisations/descargas used by Puertoricans in New York are derived from Cuban Rumba, which they copied a lot.

You're suggesting that Descargas in NYC have all strictly referenced via Rumba. That just isn't the case. Either you're BS'ing to try to 'get over' your take on things or you don't know what you're listening to.

What we see during the 50s and 60s is using the improvisational part of the Cuban rumba, the montuno and mambo sections, to live up the music in Cuba and in New York and all those Puertorican musicians of the 50s and early 60s produce descargas together with Cubans (i.e Mongo Santamaria) and Afro-Americans even Jews (Barry Rogers) to produce NY descargas based on these Cuban models/improvisational parts.

Life didn't start in Cuba or for NY musicians in the 50s and 60s. Go take a listen to what was happening musically in the 30s and 40s in both Cuba and New York. If you dare.

If you look at the LP of Charlie Palmieri Salsa Na Mas (1961) you see pachanga, chachacha, mambo and what he calls a 'salsa' is a Cuban Son Montuno, played in a Cuban Charanga-style!

You just don't get it buddy. What is a 'Pachanga'? What did the Charangas in NY do that the Cubans weren't doing over there by and large? Charangas were SLOW tempoed. The U.S. Charangas kicked it into over-drive. Innovation took place in the orchestration of the U.S. charanga. You're implying [intentionally no doubt] that every Charanga band in NYC was a complete mirror image of what was happening in Cuba. The styles were exactly the same. Granted there were Charangas who were nothing more than clones of the Charangas they admired in Cuba. But there were others win NYC who were doing progressive things with the Charanga format.

That's the reality of "Salsa" overall. You're just being selective and stating absolute commentary based on only one side of the coin. It doesn't work that way as much as you would love for it to.

If you want to know how much Cuban music has influenced the creation and development of Jazz, read Chris washburne "the clave of Jazz" and how much it influenced the creation of Latin Rock (R&B Montuno-Mambos) Funk, Bugalu, Hip Hop and much more, the artcile of Ned Sublette will do "the Kingsmen and the chachacha".

No thanks...

Puertorican musicians use a deep fountain or are standing on a high mountain, and that's called Cuba or better Afro-Cuba, Santeria included!

Don't forget Puerto Ricans also made up a wing of the Cuban Revolutionary Party in New York prior to the Spanish American War. The same city the Cuban flag was created. The story of Cuba is the story of Puerto Rico. From day one. There's a reason why Puerto Ricans are as much at the forefront of Afro Cuban culture as anyone else and that is it. I don't dismiss that or try any one-upmanship due to any inferiority complex. That's what you do. Distinguish Cuba from anyone else and have the island and its culture exist in some vacuum.
All those books you claimed you read, I suggest you read them again. Then look at the sources In the bibliography and read those too. E-Mail those authors and ask them pertinent questions and don't only zero in on what you want to hear or read.

The mountain/Monte is Cuba!

Yay!

Meanwhile, when is the next "salsa" concert, dance or recording session taking place at that Cuban Mountain? Hmmmm? La Montana es en Peru. Se encuentra en Colombia. En Puerto Rico. And on Westchester Avenue. This forum exists because of the music making its way outside of that mountain and being embraced and spun elsewhere.

The proof is in the recordings. Everything else, like your books and your quotes, is BS.

PS-Que viva Brasil!

xoxo
 
Richie,

Let's start from the beginning. In the US in the 1930s, 40s and 50s US citizens were very much charmed with Cuban music and dance and made Cuba their holiday vacation. Not Puerto Rico, not Plena and Bomba...

They brought this music home and wanted to dance to it, which started in New York and Miami, at that time it was called Rhumba/Son. Ernesto lecuona and his boys came to the US to do some shows with the Peanut Vendor.

This can all be checked by reading the articles and the book of the Puertorican music journalist Max Salazar, an expert who wrote a lot about this music and dance i.e. in the magazine Latin Beat.

The heart of Salsa, as Robert Farris Thompson showed in his article New York's Salsa Music, is Afrocuban. The musical structures, instruments, songs and rhythms are all Afrocuban. Interesting to see, is that's played by the second generation of NY Puerto Ricans. Talking about Jazz and its contribution, I like you to remind that a percussionist as Chano Pozo worked with Gillespie which helped to create Bebop and later on Cubop. I like also to remind that is was the Puertorican percussionist Sabu Martinez working for 15 years with Art Blakey who helped to create modern Hardbop, these percussionists helped to transfer afrocuban rhythms to other instruments, i.e. the jazz drumset played by Blakey. So now, they are playing afrocuban rhythms in jazztime!

Milton Cardona, the famous percussionist showed that the Cuban Descarga of Emilio Flyn and Cachao Lopez were the models used in the US to start with. Descargas were called in Cuba and New York..RUMBITA!
A small rumba or informal Rumba, this can also be checked by reading the article of Max Salazar called La descarga cubana. - Latin Beat Magazine - Nbr. 71 - Author: Salazar, Max -

I added an article from Robert Farris Thompson who explains where the mambo, chachacha and pachanga is coming from, is also attached here:
http://www.unz.org/Pub/SaturdayRev-1961oct28-00042?View=PDF

Its a combination/fusion of Cuban Charanga with Afrocuban elements which is new and starts in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s and comes to New York City.The charanga of Charlie Palmieri in the early 60s does not sound different than the Cuban models.

I did a lot of literature on Cuba and New York in the early 1930s, 40s and 50s and again Max Salazar is an excellent source, he was even rewarded by American universities for his excellent knowledge.

I said many times that Cuba and Puerto Rico were two wings of a bird. They had the same history especially in the beginning of the 19th century, when Spain used both islands, after losing Latin America, to get money and started the big plantation economy with slaves from Andalusia and Africa. I constantly mention the similarities between jibaro and guajiro and between bomba and rumba....

If one considers Timba a salsa form, there are constant concerts, and also in Cuba there is a Son, Mambo, Chachacha and afrocuban Jazz Renaissance going on....

If you talk about Africa and Tito Puente it is okay to me, I think you should know that Tito Puente and many other Puerto Ricans in New York, are or were Santeros which means belonging to the Afrocuban religion, called Santeria, do I say more on the fact that Cuba is still the Mountain or the Fountain!....

Saludos,
Edsel
 
Let's start from the beginning. In the US in the 1930s, 40s and 50s US citizens were very much charmed with Cuban music and dance and made Cuba their holiday vacation. Not Puerto Rico, not Plena and Bomba...

Just by reading this statement alone I see that you have ZERO clue about anything in depth about any of the subject matter you're mentioning.

The beginning does not start in 1930. This music goes well before any article you have read that chooses to start at that point.

Furthermore, that music and dance they fell in love with was as a result of a good number of Cubans expressing it in the exterior. Outside of Cuba. Puerto Ricans were a huge part of that equation, both on the island as well as on Broadway, NYC, Mexico City, MX., Miami Beach, FL. and beyond.

PBKCposter.jpg

^^ A 1934 advertisement as it appears in a local Florida newspaper of an event featuring a Puerto Rican orchestra leader.

That's what you get for putting all of your eggs in the 'Salsa' articles basket. Information that only tells you part of a much larger story.

Again, you need to do far more research than just read Latin Beat Magazine and articles written 40-60 years after a specific era took place.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

Don't rely solely on what others have written. Take a read of the articles in old newspapers that were written in the 1900s, 19-teens, 1920s, '30s, '40s, etc. Not just articles or books revolving around those time periods that were published in the 70s to the present. The stuff that was published THEN is a lot closer to the truth than what someone today is reinterpreting via minor evidence [like hearsay] and blowing it out of proportion.

You are severely mistaken if you believe Puerto Rico or "Porto Rico," as it was referred to then, was not on anyone's radar in the U.S. I suggest you make your way to a real brick and mortar Library and search for ads and information of the various steam ships and associated agencies that promoted travel to and from the U.S. and P.R. and beyond and then come back here and suggest that there was no love affair or awareness of or for Puerto Rico.

In fact, go back to exactly 1899 when the first 'review' was written up advising U.S. americans to consider tourism in the U.S.'s brand new colonial 'possession' and remarking about the incredible musicianship of the island natives.

Maybe then you'll realize Puerto Rico's music goes beyond just Bomba and Plena.

They brought this music home and wanted to dance to it, which started in New York and Miami, at that time it was called Rhumba/Son. Ernesto lecuona and his boys came to the US to do some shows with the Peanut Vendor.

Just like that huh? The way you described it?

There wasn't anyone else here that was interpreting Cuban music in the teens? The '20s? While the Rhumba craze takes off in the USA and Europe in '30-'32, that does not equal the music as having been introduced in 1930 and 1932 to those audiences.

Here's a book for you. Read MY MUSIC IS MY FLAG by Ruth Glasser. Some of it is referenced in Sublette's book which you claimed to have read.

This can all be checked by reading the articles and the book of the Puertorican music journalist Max Salazar, an expert who wrote a lot about this music and dance i.e. in the magazine Latin Beat.

Max was my friend. I had been to his home in Washington Heights. I have him on video speaking. What you are claiming is not what Max has ever stated. Because of that friendship, I had the utmost confidence to share with him any information that contradicted what he had written or professed in the past in some of his articles. I wasn't the only one. He appreciated it. Especially if you came correct and could prove it with real evidence. He was human like everyone else. We all make mistakes. He was important
because he was one of the few people in the U.S. to really discuss the musical past of N.Y., Cuba and Puerto Rico and bring many of the lesser known figures, places and events to a younger generation. I would recommend that you use his work as a primer. Then do your own fact checking. That is, if you're serious.

People should always double check every absolute statement that is made. Often times you will find that people make declarations without any basis. They overestimate or rush to conclusions and convert guesstimates and speculation into gospel.

The heart of Salsa, as Robert Farris Thompson showed in his article New York's Salsa Music, is Afrocuban. The musical structures, instruments, songs and rhythms are all Afrocuban.

No they are not. That's not even what Dr. Thompson stated or implied in that article. Do I really have to point out what isn't afro-Cuban as far as the instruments? The canon of Salsa also has rhythms and structures that are not Cuban. Jazz being the biggest presence. The rhythms are by and large afro Cuban. You also have to keep in mind the bands that Thompson was focusing on in his article. He was not following Raphy Leavitt or analyzing the music of Rafael Cortijo, Mon Rivera or Cesar Concepcion. Band leades who have one foot on the Cuban side and another on the Puerto Rican and any other culture. All of whom were identified as Mambo or Salsa artists. He singles out Ray Baretto. Pacheco. You cannot dismiss songs and bands who reference non-Cuban elements in their music when it suits you. It may not exist or matter to you, but it does to those of us in search of a clearer picture of what a cultural phenomenon is about and made up of.

Interesting to see, is that's played by the second generation of NY Puerto Ricans.

The 2nd generation?

Talking about Jazz and its contribution, I like you to remind that a percussionist as Chano Pozo worked with Gillespie which helped to create Bebop and later on Cubop. I like also to remind that is was the Puertorican percussionist Sabu Martinez working for 15 years with Art Blakey who helped to create modern Hardbop, these percussionists helped to transfer afrocuban rhythms to other instruments, i.e. the jazz drumset played by Blakey. So now, they are playing afrocuban rhythms in jazztime!

Chano Pozo had nothing to do with BeBop. This style precedes Chano's emergence in the USA. ca. 1944-1945 via the Billy Eckstine Orchestra. Nor did Sabu play a role in creating Hard Bop or help to transfer what you described. The drum kit existed in Afro Cuban Ork's well before timbales became a part of it. Sabu wasn't even born yet.

Milton Cardona, the famous percussionist showed that the Cuban Descarga of Emilio Flyn and Cachao Lopez were the models used in the US to start with. Descargas were called in Cuba and New York..RUMBITA!
A small rumba or informal Rumba, this can also be checked by reading the article of Max Salazar called La descarga cubana. - Latin Beat Magazine - Nbr. 71 - Author: Salazar, Max -

I added an article from Robert Farris Thompson who explains where the mambo, chachacha and pachanga is coming from, is also attached here:
http://www.unz.org/Pub/SaturdayRev-1961oct28-00042?View=PDF

Its a combination/fusion of Cuban Charanga with Afrocuban elements which is new and starts in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s and comes to New York City.The charanga of Charlie Palmieri in the early 60s does not sound different than the Cuban models.

I did a lot of literature on Cuba and New York in the early 1930s, 40s and 50s and again Max Salazar is an excellent source, he was even rewarded by American universities for his excellent knowledge.

I said many times that Cuba and Puerto Rico were two wings of a bird. They had the same history especially in the beginning of the 19th century, when Spain used both islands, after losing Latin America, to get money and started the big plantation economy with slaves from Andalusia and Africa. I constantly mention the similarities between jibaro and guajiro and between bomba and rumba....

If one considers Timba a salsa form, there are constant concerts, and also in Cuba there is a Son, Mambo, Chachacha and afrocuban Jazz Renaissance going on....

If you talk about Africa and Tito Puente it is okay to me, I think you should know that Tito Puente and many other Puerto Ricans in New York, are or were Santeros which means belonging to the Afrocuban religion, called Santeria, do I say more on the fact that Cuba is still the Mountain or the Fountain!....

Saludos,
Edsel

Okay I give up. There's no point in responding any further. We're wasting both of our times and anyone else who is reading this.

Bye.
 
I think that I showed that this music called salsa has a lot to do with Cuba and Afro-Cuban music, if one can not win the discussion one starts to be more personal, that's a pitty.

Denying, without giving any empirical arguments makes it difficult to discuss, it is very easy to say no and it is different, without proving anything!

I think you should really read the articles of prof. Peter Manuel of musicology at the CUNY University of New York:

The Soul of the Barrio: 30 years of Salsa, 1994.
http://www.latinjazzalive.org/where's_salsa_going.htm

Puerto Rican Music and Cultural Identity: Creative Appropriation of Cuban Sources from Danza to Salsa. 1994..
Peter Manuel Ethnomusicology Vol. 38, No. 2, Music and Politics (Spring - Summer, 1994), pp. 249-280.

In this last article he shows that there has been a creative appropriation of Cuban sources going on in Puerto Rico for almost 100 years....

Peter did a lot of research, see his website:
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/Page-Element...ic-(Ph-D-D-M-A-)/Faculty-Bios/Peter-L--Manuel

Let's end with a classic English riddle "who is convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still"....

Saludos,
Edsel
 
Is it me? What is it that is so difficult to 'get?'

Let me sum up FOR THE FINAL TIME. [At least to you]

You're basically stating when you suggest that Cuba is the mountain and claiming creative appropriation by Puerto Ricans for 100 years, you're taking away any original contribution that people have made to the music. Via compositions, arrangements, interpretation, phrasing, etc. You're implying that every creative DEVELOPMEN of this music revolved around Cuba and Cuban musicians IN Cuba. That is so wrong its not even funny anymore. You immediately go on the attack and ASSUME that I must be arguing that "Salsa" is a Puerto rican innovation. And that is not my POV at all. My contention is that its a lot more complez than just your simple explanation that all Cuban Popular music outside of Cuba is a cut and paste job of everything happening in Cuba throughout the 20th Century.

Where is the proof of this. You're offering articles that say one thing and adapting it to your logic. That doesn't work with me brother. Show me what recordings there are to prove your point? You need to substantiate your talk. What you're saying and even what some of these cultural anthropologists like Peter Manuel, Sue Steward, Isabelle Leymarie, ETC., are claiming, doesn't mesh or coincide with the recording output and facts behind those recordings.

How much different is it that Rafael Hernandez and Tite Curet Alonso use Cuban musical genres to express their original compositions than Cachao or Arsenio doing so. Why are the latter not being accused of appropriation? Why isn't the term stealing get uttered as compared to non-Cubans? Arsenio and Cachao didn't invent the Son. Do they get a pass because they're Cuban? If you feel that it's their birthright, then okay. But then don't deny that there isn't a nationalistic ideology revolved around your commentary. Because it's as plain as day to me. I've heard and read junk like what you're claiming for years. You'll have to wake up a lot earlier than that in the morning to 'get over'.

Furthermore, using your logic, the entire Cuban musical culture is one giant appropriation, or 'theft,' as you like to call it. Those rhythms were developed in Cuba by African Slaves. What about the European aspect? Did a Guajiro merely lay a fart and out came the 'Son?'

The reality is that Cuba and Cubans who interpreted these rhythms and styles are only one part of a much larger story of Cuban music overall. You can provide all the links you wish and quote as many professors and argue that you have empirical evidence. I have the most unquestionable evidence and that is the music itself. All of the evidence you need can be found in the music. The records. That is what you're supposed to use to base your opinions on. Not some article written by a guy who never lived or existed in El Barrio, then or now, and is viewing everything as black or white and is going to conclude what they deem the 'soul of el barrio' to be.

I find that offensive to anyone who lives the culture. Being told to read a book or a dissertation. If you want to go on and believe your inaccurate POV and misread everything and redefine what's been written by others and shape it into your own theory or history, I can't stop you and won't even try. "Alla Tu," as we say.

What you've reinterpreted Peter's work to be isn't a total appropriation. It is a mutual exchange. A co-existence between two very similar cultures. You won't know this by reading those articles you've cited because they don't touch on that.

For anyone else reading this that would like to dig deeper, pick up Richard Spottswood's Ethnic Music On Record, which revolves around Ethnic or Race music of every kind that was recorded in the United States from 1893-1942. Including Cuban and Boricua music is listed. It will show and prove that the majority of Cuban music [not to mention the music of Puerto Rico] was recorded in the USA. Using a majority of non Cubans as much as any Cubans that were involved. Aside from oral histories and photography, it is with discographies and the recoding information within that one is able to obtain a true account of the who, what, when and where of Cuban music during the 20th Century. It shows exactly what I have been contending and always tell others to consider. Not based on anything else but the facts at hand.

And to the poster known as THE. Your post may have been deleted by you or the moderators, but I got it in my inbox anyway. The purpose of uploading that ad of Rafael Hernandez was to contradict, with proof, what Mr. Edsel is claiming in his history lesson is completely false and based on elected ignorance. He's reading materials written by professors who are viewing Cuban music one-dimensionally. And guess what? They haven't captured the brunt of the complete record of this music exactly either. It takes more than a PhD to understand the totality of this musical history. There are people like Rene Lopez who don't even have a H.S. Diploma and they will STEAM ROLL the doctorates and anthropologists.

Edsel claimed that the USA had a love affair with Cuba and Cuban Music. I uploaded the ad to show that here was a Puerto Rican band leader being booked to play an event in Florida, which, last time I checked was in the USA. You asked if I meant to imply that Rafael played Son. I'm not implying it, I'm stating it emphatically. Rafael composed Sones, Guarachas, Danzones, Congas, Boleros. But he also was adept at composing Mazurkas, Scottisches[sp?], Polkas, Cumbias, Plenas, Rags, Merengues, etc. He was a complete musician. The ad read, direct from Puerto Rico. If there was no awareness of Puerto Rico, then why did they book this man? Why didn't they book Don Azpiazu or any other band from Cuba instead? Because the scene was NOT how Mr. Edsel is purporting to claim. Based on what has been written by others that doesn't even address any of this. Most of the "Stories" have been told or re-told focusing squarely on the Cuban or Cuban music perspective. But the real evidence [the recordings] shows us that even Cuban musicians like Mario Bauza were much more than mere Soneros and contributed to a whole lot more to music overall than just Afro-Cuban Jazz. If you look into it, you'll see that its far more complex and wider than the B&W 3 minute versions these articles present and are recycled by folks like Edsel. Who Is also claiming that HipHop comes out of Mambo and that the break dancers were paying attention to the Mamboniks.

Maybe in the Twilight Zone that's what happened but in real life that's not how it went down. He completely missed the point of the Documentary "From Mambo to HipHop." Which is not anout how one form evolved from another, but rather about how the borough itself was an incubator for these forms. It's a "South Bronx Tale."

Like Wild Bill said on another sub-forum, Edsel is just expressing 'whatever' because that's what he believes it to be. That's not how life works.

I hope I answered your question THE.

Can I call you THE? Or is it Mr. THE?
 
[quote="Richie Blondet, post: 262188, member: 190211

.

] .

, Rafael composed Sones, Guarachas, Danzones, Congas, Boleros. But he also was adept at composing Mazurkas,

Scottisches[sp?],


.
[/quote]

Just a spelling correction.. its Schottische.. First seen in competition in Paris ,1921 .Which that proves, I guess , to pre-date its existence .
Was/is, still taught in the U.K.
 
Is it me? What is it that is so difficult to 'get?'

Let me sum up FOR THE FINAL TIME. [At least to you]

You're basically stating when you suggest that Cuba is the mountain and claiming creative appropriation by Puerto Ricans for 100 years, you're taking away any original contribution that people have made to the music. Via compositions, arrangements, interpretation, phrasing, etc. You're implying that every creative DEVELOPMEN of this music revolved around Cuba and Cuban musicians IN Cuba. That is so wrong its not even funny anymore. You immediately go on the attack and ASSUME that I must be arguing that "Salsa" is a Puerto rican innovation. And that is not my POV at all. My contention is that its a lot more complez than just your simple explanation that all Cuban Popular music outside of Cuba is a cut and paste job of everything happening in Cuba throughout the 20th Century.

Where is the proof of this. You're offering articles that say one thing and adapting it to your logic. That doesn't work with me brother. Show me what recordings there are to prove your point? You need to substantiate your talk. What you're saying and even what some of these cultural anthropologists like Peter Manuel, Sue Steward, Isabelle Leymarie, ETC., are claiming, doesn't mesh or coincide with the recording output and facts behind those recordings.

How much different is it that Rafael Hernandez and Tite Curet Alonso use Cuban musical genres to express their original compositions than Cachao or Arsenio doing so. Why are the latter not being accused of appropriation? Why isn't the term stealing get uttered as compared to non-Cubans? Arsenio and Cachao didn't invent the Son. Do they get a pass because they're Cuban? If you feel that it's their birthright, then okay. But then don't deny that there isn't a nationalistic ideology revolved around your commentary. Because it's as plain as day to me. I've heard and read junk like what you're claiming for years. You'll have to wake up a lot earlier than that in the morning to 'get over'.

Furthermore, using your logic, the entire Cuban musical culture is one giant appropriation, or 'theft,' as you like to call it. Those rhythms were developed in Cuba by African Slaves. What about the European aspect? Did a Guajiro merely lay a fart and out came the 'Son?'

The reality is that Cuba and Cubans who interpreted these rhythms and styles are only one part of a much larger story of Cuban music overall. You can provide all the links you wish and quote as many professors and argue that you have empirical evidence. I have the most unquestionable evidence and that is the music itself. All of the evidence you need can be found in the music. The records. That is what you're supposed to use to base your opinions on. Not some article written by a guy who never lived or existed in El Barrio, then or now, and is viewing everything as black or white and is going to conclude what they deem the 'soul of el barrio' to be.

I find that offensive to anyone who lives the culture. Being told to read a book or a dissertation. If you want to go on and believe your inaccurate POV and misread everything and redefine what's been written by others and shape it into your own theory or history, I can't stop you and won't even try. "Alla Tu," as we say.

What you've reinterpreted Peter's work to be isn't a total appropriation. It is a mutual exchange. A co-existence between two very similar cultures. You won't know this by reading those articles you've cited because they don't touch on that.

For anyone else reading this that would like to dig deeper, pick up Richard Spottswood's Ethnic Music On Record, which revolves around Ethnic or Race music of every kind that was recorded in the United States from 1893-1942. Including Cuban and Boricua music is listed. It will show and prove that the majority of Cuban music [not to mention the music of Puerto Rico] was recorded in the USA. Using a majority of non Cubans as much as any Cubans that were involved. Aside from oral histories and photography, it is with discographies and the recoding information within that one is able to obtain a true account of the who, what, when and where of Cuban music during the 20th Century. It shows exactly what I have been contending and always tell others to consider. Not based on anything else but the facts at hand.

And to the poster known as THE. Your post may have been deleted by you or the moderators, but I got it in my inbox anyway. The purpose of uploading that ad of Rafael Hernandez was to contradict, with proof, what Mr. Edsel is claiming in his history lesson is completely false and based on elected ignorance. He's reading materials written by professors who are viewing Cuban music one-dimensionally. And guess what? They haven't captured the brunt of the complete record of this music exactly either. It takes more than a PhD to understand the totality of this musical history. There are people like Rene Lopez who don't even have a H.S. Diploma and they will STEAM ROLL the doctorates and anthropologists.

Edsel claimed that the USA had a love affair with Cuba and Cuban Music. I uploaded the ad to show that here was a Puerto Rican band leader being booked to play an event in Florida, which, last time I checked was in the USA. You asked if I meant to imply that Rafael played Son. I'm not implying it, I'm stating it emphatically. Rafael composed Sones, Guarachas, Danzones, Congas, Boleros. But he also was adept at composing Mazurkas, Scottisches[sp?], Polkas, Cumbias, Plenas, Rags, Merengues, etc. He was a complete musician. The ad read, direct from Puerto Rico. If there was no awareness of Puerto Rico, then why did they book this man? Why didn't they book Don Azpiazu or any other band from Cuba instead? Because the scene was NOT how Mr. Edsel is purporting to claim. Based on what has been written by others that doesn't even address any of this. Most of the "Stories" have been told or re-told focusing squarely on the Cuban or Cuban music perspective. But the real evidence [the recordings] shows us that even Cuban musicians like Mario Bauza were much more than mere Soneros and contributed to a whole lot more to music overall than just Afro-Cuban Jazz. If you look into it, you'll see that its far more complex and wider than the B&W 3 minute versions these articles present and are recycled by folks like Edsel. Who Is also claiming that HipHop comes out of Mambo and that the break dancers were paying attention to the Mamboniks.

Maybe in the Twilight Zone that's what happened but in real life that's not how it went down. He completely missed the point of the Documentary "From Mambo to HipHop." Which is not anout how one form evolved from another, but rather about how the borough itself was an incubator for these forms. It's a "South Bronx Tale."

Like Wild Bill said on another sub-forum, Edsel is just expressing 'whatever' because that's what he believes it to be. That's not how life works.

I hope I answered your question THE.

Can I call you THE? Or is it Mr. THE?

Yes you did thanks for that. I just did what you said and did my own research and listen to some of his music and did not find it especially relevant to the discusion but I did not hear all of it. You sound angry sometimes thats why I deleted the post I do not want you to make me feel stupid you do not know me I do not deserve the tone that that you use sometimes.
 
[quote="Richie Blondet, post: 262188, member: 190211

.

] .

, Rafael composed Sones, Guarachas, Danzones, Congas, Boleros. But he also was adept at composing Mazurkas,

Scottisches[sp?],


.

Just a spelling correction.. its Schottische.. First seen in competition in Paris ,1921 .Which that proves, I guess , to pre-date its existence .
Was/is, still taught in the U.K.[/quote]
Yes thanks Terence.
 
Just a spelling correction.. its Schottische.. First seen in competition in Paris ,1921 .Which that proves, I guess , to pre-date its existence .
Was/is, still taught in the U.K.

Yes, thanks Terence.[/quote]

Youre welcome...
 
Yes you did thanks for that. I just did what you said and did my own research and listen to some of his music and did not find it especially relevant to the discusion but I did not hear all of it. You sound angry sometimes thats why I deleted the post I do not want you to make me feel stupid you do not know me I do not deserve the tone that that you use sometimes.

I know where you live.

:wacky:
 
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