The backstep in Casino (or "Cuban Salsa")

[Sabrosura]

Heh, interesting that you would highlight Victor for this and I can see how this video could be ambiguous!

Having taken some twenty classes from him -- Victor leads girls to back-step all the time (and back-steps himself a lot). He actually has a very linear-influenced fusion style that is not very close to traditional casino at all (he himself admits this).

I also have a bunch of other videos of him dancing with his other students and the back-stepping by the follow is very prominent. In particular, he leads exhibela, setenta and enchufla in a fairly linear way that often leads the girl to step back or in place on 1. Also, he has a great attention to detail as a teacher, but he never once remarked on my partner back-stepping when he or I led her (which was pretty much all the time).

Personally, in part influenced by this forum, I've been experimenting with leading girls forward more in my casino, and I like the effect some of the time. . . but at other times in a song, when looking for a different/less fluid effect, I still prefer the more linearish lead which starts with a back-step.

(By the way, this was super confusing to me for the longest time -- if I understand correctly, the discussion is primarily about the girl back-stepping, not the guy back-stepping)

Interesting. Thanks for sharing

I agree that he is using a more fusion kind of style that includes linear moves and for those moves, back-stepping works. But when watching this particular video--and this is just my personal impression, to him it may not feel this way--it looks to me that the fact that the follow is back-stepping cuts into the fluidity of what he is leading on several occasions.

 

[Sabrosura]

Heh, and actually, turns out I have a vid of your #1 favorite Osmel (el animador) leading plenty of backsteps he is an awesome dancer but very very far from a traditional casinero. In fact, he's one of the most unorthodox dancers in Havana.

Send it to me please! He is my #1 favorite lead in all of Cuba So I guess this means I prefer modern/fusion casino -- I kind of suspected that all along

As for back steps, I personally try to keep mine to a minimum in casino as I have found that the less I do them, the better and more fluid the dance feels. My casino following began to feel significantly better when I started to really focus on eliminating back stepping. Even if I feel that a back step would work at certain points, I'll step in place rather than back step, unless specifically led so. Of course, if the lead is leading some linear or in-place moves, I'll back step.

I really need to record a dance with Osmel and Victor next time I go

 

[Live2dance]

I think it is worth adding another element just to show that the different forms of "latin"' dancing have a great similarity at this point but refer to this similarity in different ways.
- Casino : no back step, always fwd motion for both partners (though son basic has back breaks and no fwd breaks).
- BR latin int (rumba and cha influenced by son): weight always slightly fwd for both partners even when breaking bwd with lady maintaining direction unless led to change. (And I could easily argue that the solo lady is in fact dancing BR int rumba.)
- Linear salsa: lady maintains linear motion back and forth and should move fwd in the line when the door is open


So in all three forms we see (at least for the lady) a request for fwd motion either continuously or in between bwd breaks. Despite this they include bwd steps at different amounts. So in my view the issue is rather artificial and hence I vote for 4.

For me the importance of any dancing is the connection (emphasis on the physical) between the partners created by using similar technical principles. And hence this is why I like a more relaxed hybrid cuban/linear salsa with bwd steps or taps and changes of direction. This is also why I rather dislike the inequality of fem-linear salsa where the lady is obliged to perform something irrespective of whether man is really leading or not.

 

[TSC]

Send it to me please! He is my #1 favorite lead in all of Cuba So I guess this means I prefer modern/fusion casino -- I kind of suspected that all along

As for back steps, I personally try to keep mine to a minimum in casino as I have found that the less I do them, the better and more fluid the dance feels. My casino following began to feel significantly better when I started to really focus on eliminating back stepping. Even if I feel that a back step would work at certain points, I'll step in place rather than back step, unless specifically led so. Of course, if the lead is leading some linear or in-place moves, I'll back step.

I really need to record a dance with Osmel and Victor next time I go

Check your PM.

Btw my favorite casino dancer, at least visually, is Yoandy -- and despite lots of cool body movement he leads a fairly traditional casino. In most of his videos that I've seen, his followers (students) don't step back much. But here the excellent Diana Rodriguez does step back quite a bit dancing with him -- and it still looks great:

I would say that my answer to this question is, in the end, as so often -- it depends. It depends on your intention, on the music, and on the dynamic between the two dancers.

 

[khabibul35]

- Casino : no back step, always fwd motion for both partners (though son basic has back breaks and no fwd breaks).
- BR latin int (rumba and cha influenced by son): weight always slightly fwd for both partners even when breaking bwd with lady maintaining direction unless led to change. (And I could easily argue that the solo lady is in fact dancing BR int rumba.)
- Linear salsa: lady maintains linear motion back and forth and should move fwd in the line when the door is open

....

This is also why I rather dislike the inequality of fem-linear salsa where the lady is obliged to perform something irrespective of whether man is really leading or not.

It's interesting that you vote for 4, despite specifically saying "no back step" exists. But in any case, thanks for at least explaining what you mean. I don't really know about BR latin or slot salsa, but I'll take your word for it and I'm not at all surprised. Teachers often teach in a way that teaches students to execute movements instead teaching the underlying technique if the dance. The result is that students end up executing moves despite their technique rather than because of it. I'm sure it applies as much to other styles of dance as it does to casino, but I'm just not familiar with these particular dances.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

Check your PM.

Btw my favorite casino dancer, at least visually, is Yoandy -

Ooooh yes....

 

[Live2dance]

It's interesting that you vote for 4, despite specifically saying "no back step" exists. But in any case, thanks for at least explaining what you mean. I don't really know about BR latin or slot salsa, but I'll take your word for it and I'm not at all surprised. Teachers often teach in a way that teaches students to execute movements instead teaching the underlying technique if the dance. The result is that students end up executing moves despite their technique rather than because of it. I'm sure it applies as much to other styles of dance as it does to casino, but I'm just not familiar with these particular dances.

Very true! So a great number of issues may come at play which at the time when they were introduced may have been important but currently seem obsolete. And this is why I refer to artificial barriers. If you think about son ( @terence may correct me) I would imagine that a man stepping fwd towards a lady could have been deemed inappropriate at the time. In the mid of the last century, just the body contact was enough to cause an uproar.

 

[khabibul35]

Clearly, we're not talking about closed position here. Obviously paso de son and all other son-based closed-position moves have a led backstep. There is absolutely no controversy here!

Furthermore, of course you can and should step back as a leader to facilitate a follower's movement. This is not in question (and was already talked about in this thread). The question is whether a follower should ever be led backwards (outside of closed position)!

 

[TSC]

One can't (shouldn't?) argue with cultists.

 

[terence]

]


@terence[/USER] may correct me) I would imagine that a man stepping fwd towards a lady could have been deemed inappropriate at the time. In the mid of the last century, just the body contact was enough to cause an uproar.

"Body " contact is still an issue for some. Ironic, that , many Cubano's do dance in closed position.

 

[vit]

Here's what it looks like with a partner:

I think that I already asked it, but will repeat the question. On exit of DQN at 0:23, girls steps back on 3 with left foot (and then opens up about 1/8 of the turn to L). Then she closes towards the partner on 1 and replaces weight on the right foot

So why don't we call the particular step on 3 a "break step", if it is a step back with change of direction ? A thing we call "break step" in linear salsa is supposed to be step back and replace, just about 2 beats later assuming on1 timing. Isn't it just a question of timing of that change of direction that we sometimes call "break step" and sometimes we don't for some reason ?

 

[Live2dance]

I think that I already asked it, but will repeat the question. On exit of DQN at 0:23, girls steps back on 3 with left foot (and then opens up about 1/8 of the turn to L). Then she closes towards the partner on 1 and replaces weight on the right foot

So why don't we call the particular step on 3 a "break step", if it is a step back with change of direction ? A thing we call "break step" in linear salsa is supposed to be step back and replace, just about 2 beats later assuming on1 timing. Isn't it just a question of timing of that change of direction that we sometimes call "break step" and sometimes we don't for some reason ?

I think it is a matter of definition. Break, as far as I know, is a step in opposition not just change of direction. You can change direction at any point/step you made a full weight transfer.

 

[timberamayor]

Is she back-breaking a lot?

 

[vit]

It's not casino, it's cuban salsa

 

[Live2dance]

Is she back-breaking a lot?

Yes a lot already just between 0:40 and 1. And it goes on until the end actually.

 

[TSC]

This is a very typical video of how a great many people dance in Havana today. . . and a very far cry from the traditional circular casino of the purists. Which is why I can appreciate the aesthetic preferences of the purists but don't buy the "one and correct way" philosophy. Cuban salsa is a street dance which evolves on the street, with an interesting international feedback mechanism added in these days. Theoretical discussions and rigid teaching methodologies won't put the genie back in the lamp. . .

 

[khabibul35]

This is a very typical video of how a great many people dance in Havana today. . . and a very far cry from the traditional circular casino of the purists. Which is why I can appreciate the aesthetic preferences of the purists but don't buy the "one and correct way" philosophy. Cuban salsa is a street dance which evolves on the street, with an interesting international feedback mechanism added in these days. Theoretical discussions and rigid teaching methodologies won't put the genie back in the lamp. . .

I agree with not being able to put the genie back into the lamp... at least at this point. But at the same time, I still think there's a point to be made about how the backstep made its way into casino and who uses it regularly and where. I think the answer is rather obvious if you separate the teacher circuit from the regular dancers.

There's a ton of video clips of tourists taking videos of their teachers dancing - these frequently show stepping back everywhere. A lot less often, videos surface of regular people dancing and it often looks like an altogether different dance.

Here's a playlist of videos of regular people dancing, at least what I've managed to scrape together. And no, I didn't filter it to try to prove my point. There is actually some stepping back here, but you could count the number for times it happens on one hand:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJBZCQhPu-aisceTQqhWGd3Nma1bRdK8E

Also, if you look at the show Bailar Casino, you'll see that just 10-15 years ago, there was almost no backstepping - neither from professionals, nor regular dancers:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJBZCQhPu-ahvA92xZE2qCVQ3Aqdls2kg

So my question is, what the hell happened in these last 15 years to create such a divergence between what people dance? The answer is... tourists! Personally, I find it a bit offensive that a) Europeans are sold a tourist version of the dance and b) that the cultural heritage of the country is being eroded due to tourism.

So, yes, you're right, it's too late to put the "genie back in the lamp", and that the backstep is probably here to stay but the least we could do is be a little more conscious about our dancing and try to be able to dance both a version with the backstep and without so that we're not responsible for killing off the real casino due to our irresponsible consumption of Cuban dance.

 

[terence]

So my question is, what the hell happened in these last 15 years to create such a divergence between what people dance?

the least we could do is be a little more conscious about our dancing and try to be able to dance both a version with the backstep and without

.

Some would say "evolution"....

That's the vicious circle of " teacher do " " student see "...

 

[TSC]

So my question is, what the hell happened in these last 15 years to create such a divergence between what people dance? The answer is... tourists! Personally, I find it a bit offensive that a) Europeans are sold a tourist version of the dance and b) that the cultural heritage of the country is being eroded due to tourism.

If this is something you feel about strongly, I'd try to work out a way to spend extended time in Cuba, get firsthand experience of the way salsa is danced on the island, and talk to a wide range of people who have been witness to these changes in Cuban dance style. Even then, I would be careful about making sweeping pronouncements about the way Cuban salsa "should" be danced. To me it seems fairly arrogant to come in from the outside and declare you know best about what is authentic Cuban dance and what isn't, and who is spoiling it.

Certainly if you told some of the most skilled/experienced salsa dancers in Havana that their style is wrong or inauthentic or not properly Cuban or whatever, they would laugh at you and/or be offended. If you told them tourists are screwing up their style -- doubly so. They are Cuban and they dance salsa, and so for practical purposes what they are dancing is Cuban salsa. This is not and has never been an academic, rigidly defined discipline.

Personally I haven't encountered many (any?) Cuban dancers up in arms about this issue -- amateur or professional. Sure, I've only spent a year on the island, and my experience is anecdotal. But in my experience dance for most Cubans is a real, fun, vibrant part of their daily life, the number one rule is -- have fun and express yourself -- and in fact strict adherence to rules or "right ways to dance" is one of the key complaints you hear about non-Cubans dancing. Diversity in style is celebrated.

That is actually one of the key things I love about salsa dancing in Cuba (vs in my European scene). Everybody dances differently (whereas here people tend to look like bad copies of their teacher).

Given this background, I neither particularly care to find the "correct" way to dance casino -- I will dance both/all ways, depending on the song and how I feel at the time -- nor do I think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Cuban salsa dancing as a whole will go back to some standardized, sanitized version like MCC. So to me the discussion of the "right way" doesn't serve much point -- except to highlight one possible technical way to dance casino, which I admit has value.

 

[khabibul35]

Given this background, I neither particularly care to find the "correct" way to dance casino -- I will dance both/all ways, depending on the song and how I feel at the time -- nor do I think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Cuban salsa dancing as a whole will go back to some standardized, sanitized version like MCC. So to me the discussion of the "right way" doesn't serve much point -- except to highlight one possible technical way to dance casino, which I admit has value.

Dude, you're totally misconstruing what I said. I will dance both/all ways as well, and have said this earlier in the thread. What I don't find OK is for people to roll into a studio and say they're teaching "Cuban salsa", while being completely ignorant about the thing that they're teaching.

Right now, Cuba is undergoing a phenomenal shift in culture and economics. Some of it is good and some of it is bad. Some tourists lament that the Cuba of old is changing because they wanted it as their personal diamond in the rough - a passionate people with magical things that exist nowhere else... like you know the classical cars and simple lifestyle (or alternatively, you could say, with old dilapidated infrastructure and poverty). Well, I don't want Cuba to stay poor. It's great they are modernizing. But it's not all gravy. It's created huge inequality and there's a lot of growing pains. The discrepancy in wealth is causing inflation in prices, and Cubans not connected to the tourist industry are suffering. Yes, the Castro government is responsible for this, but so are tourists! Just like the tourists who go abroad and cause ecological degradation. Just like the tourists who go to exotic places and encourage deplorable practices (For example, encouraging the persistence of the Kayan "giraffe women"). Tourists are both helping raise the standard of living for Cubans, while simultaneously creating a two-tiered class system in Cuba. This raises important questions: What does this mean? How can we do better?

The same is happening with dance culture. Cuba has become a destination for dance tourism and the practice is encouraging some opportunistic individuals to make a lot of money by selling people what they want to see instead of real Cuban dance. Not unconnected to this is the creation of an entirely new dance that didn't exist before. I think it's appropriate to call this dance "Cuban Salsa" rather than "Casino", as it looks significantly different than what Cubans who are unconnected to the tourist industry dance. Is it bad?!? Well, not necessarily. Like the money that comes with it, it brings some innovations to the dance via salsa but one could also say the dance of casino has been watered down. The question remains the same: What does this mean? How can we do better?

I think the first step is for us outsides should begin to acknowledge that this has happened and that we as dance tourists have helped create it. Be conscious! Make informed decisions and encourage others to do the same.

Ultimately, my personal answer has been... learn both. I think being more informed has made me better dancer and help me to understand what I'm seeing and how I fit into the dance culture. I encourage others to find their own truth and to get out of the tourist bubble (which is bigger than you think), and see the other side of the dance that exists along side what we've come to learn in the dance studios. Otherwise, it'll soon be forgotten.