Subtle technique changes with enormous effect

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Have you had the experience of making some small, subtle change to your technique that has had an enormous effect on your dancing, either visually or functionally? Would you share?

A lot of the things that make an enormous difference to your dancing also take an enormous amount of work (such as developing good body movement). But sometimes you find something small that is easy to change -- once you know how -- and makes a big difference.

For example -- for years I'd been frustrated with my casino stepping. It looked fine, quite good by European standards really, but it wasn't the way a skilled Cuban dancer would step (not that there's only one way, but still). There was some subtle difference, some "sabor" missing in the movement, and I couldn't get it no matter how closely I studied videos and watched Cuban dancers in real life.

6 months ago a pro gave me a little pointer about how the knee moves laterally in the space between beats (1-AND-2-AND-3-AND etc) -- easy to demonstrate, hard to explain in words. With this change, everything clicked together -- timing, hip movement, etc. Now when I watch myself stepping I recognize what I see -- the motion finally looks Cuban. As in, if you only saw my silhouette stepping, you would assume it's a Cuban stepping (not professional necessarily, but someone pretty good). It's a really dramatic difference that came from an easy, really subtle change.

Do you guys have any other examples or tips for small changes with a huge impact?
 
Now I picture your knees swinging wildly sideways while you do a basic, as if you were in pain or as if some part of your knee became connected. And forever on I will subconsciously try to emulate it. Thanks. :)

You should do before and after videos of your knees. :)

As for me, about the only thing I learned that helped me (as an on1 dancer) that was simple was learning to let my feet go naturally past one another a bit instead of rigidly lining up to neutral on the 3 and 7 beats. I know that I probably should have been taught that way from the beginning, but I wasnt. So I had to add it in later. Its nothing that would help anyone here.

What I wish I could develop is my own style. I dunno. I have been salsa dancing for almost four years now, and I just have no style of my own. The dancers from Colombia and other countries just seem to have a nice natural style, even though most dance simply; I cant even do a basic dance like they do. And the On1 dancers who stand out in our scene all learned outside our state and scene, except one guy, who is from here but went abroad a bit and picked some stuff up and now he is all over the place in a good way, at least with some dancers.

But I just have absolutely no style of my own. And I dont know how to break out of my rut.
 
Haha the knee thing is subtle, which is why it's so hard to pick up until someone explains it to you (unless you're a good natural mimic).

Re. style. . . it depends on what you mean. I think most dancers have a style of their own, but the issue is that it isn't a pretty style to look at :) personally I'm a big believer in working on body motion, isolations, afro and rumba, maybe reggaeton or even hip hop. . . it's a slow process but over time it will give you the flexibility to develop a style above the step-here-and-there and flick-a-hand-here set.

For most of us who started out as adults, getting good flexibility, freedom and style takes several years of intensive work (many hours a week, not just a couple of classes and socials). Frankly 90% of the dancers I see never get there, no matter how many years they've been dancing.

That said, if you don't necessarily want a classically pretty salsa style, I've seen beginners with pretty good style -- as in, fun to look at, bring a smile to your face -- that's born simply out of a sense of fun, a lack of self-consciousness, and willingness to experiment.
 
I second Slowdance, change the thread to examples with video of improving dance technique. That way the rest of us can learn too!
 
I have had several big technique breakthroughs but few of them qualify as "easy to change" :), most are pretty complex--and without a face-to-face discussion and visual demonstration, it would take me pages and pages to describe them.

However there is one I can describe that is indeed an easy change with huge benefits. It has to do with partnerwork and while I am a follow, it applies to leads as well. This was an issue that was causing me huge problems with balance at one point, I felt like I kept losing my balance during turns and in general in partnerwork and I wasn't as sharp and light as I wanted, and this had been driving me crazy for several months, I could not for the life of me figure out why and what was going on. Finally one quick, very observant comment from the instructor in a partnerwork class (Frankie--as I have mentioned his partnerwork classes are the only ones I have found useful as a follower) immediately helped make me aware of the issue: I was holding my elbows up (laterally) when my arms were raised and needed to drop them, so that only my wrist was up, not my elbow. Whether I had started doing this as a way to prevent guys from hitting my head, or some other reason, or whether I had always danced like that (this took place about 7-8 months after I started salsa) I don't know, but in any case I realized that holding my elbows up like that was having a *huge* negative effect as it was causing my upper body to stiffen, so I was leaning backwards and ended up off-balance during partnerwork and wasn't as sharp and light as I could be. I can't tell you what a hugely positive effect this one observation and subsequent change had on my dancing--*everything* got--and felt--so much better!

I see this issue a lot not just in follows but in leads too (those guys that always seem to invite the follow to smell their armpit as they lead her :p) and it's something that is really easy to fix, if only someone were to point this out to them. Once they drop the elbows, their lead almost instantly becomes smoother, more relaxed and more comfortable.
 
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Interesting, Sabrosura -- now I will watch myself to see if I ever sin like that ;)

For Al Isreal and Slowdance -- ask and you shlal receive ;). I'm recovering from a knee/ankle injury (6 months without dancing) so I'm far from 100%, but I hope this video helps explain the basic idea. (Also, I'm curious if other people have been taught this under some name -- I've never been formally taught the famous so-called Cuban Motion, for example, so I wonder).

https://vid.me/2cna

(video is in portrait mode because there wasn't much room to back up when filming)
 
TSC said:
Interesting, Sabrosura -- now I will watch myself to see if I ever sin like that ;)

For Al Isreal and Slowdance -- ask and you shlal receive ;). I'm recovering from a knee/ankle injury (6 months without dancing) so I'm far from 100%, but I hope this video helps explain the basic idea. (Also, I'm curious if other people have been taught this under some name -- I've never been formally taught the famous so-called Cuban Motion, for example, so I wonder).

https://vid.me/2cna
Click to expand...

Oh I see, when I first read your original post I was imagining all kinds of lateral knee movement scenarios :) but now that you demonstrate it, I see that what you are talking about is the effect that happens when the foot rolls from the inside of the ball, as you step on it, to the full foot--this is actually taught in Latin ballroom technique, and yep it is a key part of the infamous "Cuban motion" :). I would say the difference is that in ballroom the inside ball stepping is combined with a slight out-turn of the feet, so that the knees end up being more forward facing rather than move sideways as in your demo, because the force of the stepping (when the feet are out-turned) goes more to the hips than the knees. This was drilled over and over in my Latin ballroom classes.

PS Love the red shirt :)
 
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:) yeah, I figured it would be something similar-but-not-quite-the-same. Hadn't thought about it that way, but I see what you mean about the foot roll thing (doesn't happen on the forward break, but does on the 2 and the 3). But yeah, the lateral knee thing is a big part of it in the Cuban street version (although it's best done subtly, so that it's hard to even consciously notice). Re. hip action, it's next on my agenda to improve working with the same pro -- I doubt it will be the same technique as in ballroom (in fact, I'm pretty sure it won't), but I'm excited about the improvement to come ;)

P.s. ;) thanks
 
One need to be careful with those lateral movements of the knees and similar things ... Yes, those things exist in latin dances, even in ballroom latin dances, but I would rather look at it as reaction of the legs / knees to rotation of the hips (as a part of the usage of the core) instead of intentional action of the knees or even rolling of the feet. When doing these things wrong, they may still look quite ok and in style and better than before, but causing damage to some parts of the body by using them the way they are not "designed" to. In my ballroom days, I did many things as explained/requested by trainers (or at least as I understood) using brute force, so my knees started hurting because of pressing the ground to "get" that cuban movement etc ...

Dancing should be something natural to the body, so I would be careful about small things that suddenly changed much ... because body doesn't work much different than before that change, so it --could-- mean that some unnatural change was actually implemented. I'm not saying it's impossible, but many times it's just an illusion

In competitive ballroom and other performance dancing, point is on the visual appearance of the dance, but in social dancing, point should be on trying to feel what's natural for the body and not doing harm to the body at the expense of styling
 
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Slowdance said:
As for me, about the only thing I learned that helped me (as an on1 dancer) that was simple was learning to let my feet go naturally past one another a bit instead of rigidly lining up to neutral on the 3 and 7 beats. I know that I probably should have been taught that way from the beginning, but I wasnt. So I had to add it in later. Its nothing that would help anyone here.
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The same happened to me. I was taught that way, going back to neutral on 3 and 7, thus resulting in a very robotic basic step. It wasn't until I started with a new teacher that I noticed that situation and my basic became more "natural". It is nothing new to most SFers, but if you are a beginner, such remarks, when done in a educational way can make you aware of an incorrect execution of a movement.
 
vit -- for sure, care is called for. I agree about forcing the action. It was explained to me in terms of knee motion because that's easier to understand, but when I dance, the motion is of course generated from the core/rotation of the hip (instead of forcing the knee sideways or rolling the foot). Your point is important to consider, though, since I realize now people following instructions, especially beginners, might end up forcing things.

Also, this motion is very common (though not ubiquitous) from what I've seen in Cuba, but of course that doesn't mean it's good on the knees long term. Same as rumba. It may or may not be. Anecdotally I haven't heard of as much knee trouble for older rumberos and casineros as I used to do among martial arts practicioners, for example -- but I've no data on it.

Anyhow, good point, and something to consider. Certainly another reason not to overdo it (it looks best in casino when very subtle in any case -- which is why I never figured out what was happening until someone explained it to me).

Smejmoon -- it may very well exist in ballroom -- as I guessed in my video post -- but since I haven't danced any (and most casineros I know haven't either), I wasn't aware of it. :) certainly the Cubans I learned from never danced any ballroom.
 
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I always try to work on

- Spot on spins
- body isolation
- posture

that 3 things help me a lot on my dancing, also dancing over the metatarsus a doing pressure to the ground.
 
My biggest breakthroughs:

(1) understanding the on1 count

I wasn't aware for the longest when I intially started that the count we practiced in class aligned with the music in a specific way. The first couple of socials (even privates!) I attended, I was completely oblivious. Needless to say, I started very raw.

(2) really listening to the music & having fun

Much later in my journey, due to a changing work schedule and life changes, my ratio of socials to classes almost inverted. Most of my "dance experience" would now be on Friday or Saturday nights socially. Inspired by videos of Terry, I now made it much more of a priority to not only listen to the music (both while dancing & otherwise) but to only "entertain" a bit more.

Prior, in the event that I made a "mistake", I would often stop and apologize. This would happen several times in one dance as I tended to hesitate a lot. Now, if I slipped up or we missed hands, whatever the case, I would generally smile and make it into another move, dancing out of it. It is almost always a hit with my dance partner and I grew into a much better reactive lead (as needed).

(3) learning to draw out the count

I (still) have the tendency to rush through the on1 count. I'm now getting the proper instruction and I'm learning to pause and take my time when it's available. This has made a big difference in the feel of the dance for me.


--------

I still have much to learn. I'm now in a sense "starting over" with a new instructor. Finally learning to isolate body parts, distribute weight properly, and getting a better understanding of the music. I'm learning to simplify and refine.
 
The most recent "subtle technique change with enormous effect" I experienced happened back in May, and it happened because of a new pair of shoes I bought.

I was at the Mambocity congress and one of the pairs of shoes I brought with me died at the first night, so I HAD to buy a new pair. After trying quite a few, a friend mine also joined for shoe shopping, and one of the pairs she tried (and rejected because it was too hight) caught my eye. I tried it and, sure enough, it was higher than the shoes I normally wear, but it fitted very well and felt comfortable despite the height so I bought that pair.

I wore them at the party that night, and that's when I made a new discovery: I was relying on my heels much more than I had realised. The floor was quite slippery, and the higher heels proved to be much less forgiving for bad technique. Every time I put the heel down with any weight on, the heel would slip. These shoes forced me to keep my weight completely on the balls of my feet, and that night I had my best dances ever as a result. I was following better because my weight distribution was better.

I started using this pair of shoes as a sort of trainer to teach myself how REALLY dancing on the balls of feet should feel. After a couple of month, I was able to replicate the feel when I was wearing lower-heeled shoes too. I finally feel that my basic is close to where I want it to be after years of working on it.
 
My most recent tweak with a massive difference was in holding the core. I've been holding it, but too "high" up. When I mentally switched centres of mass to be far lower, the resulting change in stability and grounding was huge.
 
MacMoto said:
The most recent "subtle technique change with enormous effect" I experienced happened back in May, and it happened because of a new pair of shoes I bought.

I was at the Mambocity congress and one of the pairs of shoes I brought with me died at the first night, so I HAD to buy a new pair. After trying quite a few, a friend mine also joined for shoe shopping, and one of the pairs she tried (and rejected because it was too hight) caught my eye. I tried it and, sure enough, it was higher than the shoes I normally wear, but it fitted very well and felt comfortable despite the height so I bought that pair.

I wore them at the party that night, and that's when I made a new discovery: I was relying on my heels much more than I had realised. The floor was quite slippery, and the higher heels proved to be much less forgiving for bad technique. Every time I put the heel down with any weight on, the heel would slip. These shoes forced me to keep my weight completely on the balls of my feet, and that night I had my best dances ever as a result. I was following better because my weight distribution was better.

I started using this pair of shoes as a sort of trainer to teach myself how REALLY dancing on the balls of feet should feel. After a couple of month, I was able to replicate the feel when I was wearing lower-heeled shoes too. I finally feel that my basic is close to where I want it to be after years of working on it.
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I have been saying this for months on this forum!!!! Glad someone else finally agrees:)
 
MacMoto and calichris -- I'm very interested in this experience with footwear that forces you onto the balls of your feet.

When I first started lessons I wore high-heeled street shoes with a strap -- what I'd often wear dancing in clubs -- because I knew if I started in flats I'd never be able to switch. The lessons I take emphasize weight transfer and using the whole foot for proper technique. Many of the classes, we have to take a minute and the instructor makes us check where our body weight actually is. The instructors have also let me know that sometimes I dance on my tip-toes, which isn't what they are trying to convey. :) I also don't dance in flats for salsa so far, because I dance on my heels whenever possible. It's the legacy of loving house and hip-hop, what can I say?

So in shoes where putting weight on your heels is an unwise life choice, do you feel you're transferring your weight properly? Using the floor correctly? Maybe those aren't concerns that you have?

And I'm not inquiring in order to justify more dance shoe purchases. Because that would be wrong.
 
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