Adolfo is a clone of ET, but as you say, the style he dances is relevant nowadays because of him, ETjr has stayed behind and local. The backlash always comes whenever Adolfo tries to say something is his without acknowledging his predecessor.
Stealing/Using Other People's Choreo
- Thread starter AguaDulce
- Start date
Understandable. I guess the one thing Adolfo can say is he has built an academy in NYC that for the most part is reputable and people from all over the world come to train and teach at. That was ET at one time, but now Adolfo is probably doing more business than ET and ET Jr. combined. His studio is also the location for the most popular hardcore salsa social in NYC and he now has a mini congress during the summer.
Adolfo is doing what FM, FD, ET, ETjr should have done. Some of the hatred towards him comes from that. These New Yorkers let an outsider come in and do what they should have done themselves. Adolfo is more hardworking, more of a businessman and also pretty cut throat. From the outside it looks like he is succeeding, behind the scenes financially, we don’t know… Rents are not cheap in NY
desconocida
Son
Ok, I'm suuuper late to the game, but in my defense - I quit salsa for five years some time inbetween... I did go through the whole thread and I'm surprised nobody ever mentioned Franklin: he's been performing and teaching "Mon Ti" for years by now, consistently making money out of that choreography in form of bootcamps. I have never compared it side-by-side with ET's original (in part because the older videos I found featured this routine as a somewhat different concept), but I think after so many years ET's "patent" may have ran out and Franklin is perfectly entitled to the use of the "generic"
Also, I'm happy to look at Franklin perform all day any day and, moreover, his contribution to the community has been so immense, him further popularizing a classic choreo is definitely a plus in my books.
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desconocida
Son
Yeah, the funny thing about it is that I am not entirely sure ET himself is always super consistent with the naming. I heard from professional instructors that they themselves heard ET refer to the same step differently or even say he doesn't always remember all of the names. I think this beef is in part due to the fact that ET has this "shines syllabus" with names which at some point about 15 years ago he tried to sell (and did so in form of videos) and it seems to me like he hoped to pass this syllabus on to Jr. or his other kids and have them be the gatekeepers of mambo. Well, but since those names remained largely a secret (I don't think ET has taught any active mambo teacher who broadly spreads this knowledge, in fact, Nadia and Melissa and Jr. maybe the only one with that knowledge) but dance, in the meantime, had a life of its own and continued evolving, other names for same steps arose and were popularized - some of them very similar to ET nomenclature, some completely different (like in that case with around the world, semi-cirlcle, and whatever else has been named). And I'm all for having a name for a thing and it's also great if the name is somewhat standardized across scenes, but ultimately, if I teach my students a proper swing step, they will do just fine on this world's social floors and in congress workshops even if I call it "catch the fly"
Some people would do good taking themselves a little less serious, it appears...One time, in Italy I asked ET who his greatest student was and he said Franklin Díaz, FD has made a lot of contributions to the dance on his own. Mon Ti is a choreo that has put a lot of food on the table for many dancers, lol.Ok, I'm suuuper late to the game, but in my defense - I quit salsa for five years some time inbetween... I did go through the whole thread and I'm surprised nobody ever mentioned Franklin: he's been performing and teaching "Mon Ti" for years by now, consistently making money out of that choreography in form of bootcamps. I have never compared it side-by-side with ET's original (in part because the older videos I found featured this routine as a somewhat different concept), but I think after so many years ET's "patent" may have ran out and Franklin is perfectly entitled to the use of the "generic"
Also, I'm happy to look at Franklin perform any day every day and, moreover, his contribution to the community has been so immense, him further popularizing a classic choreo is definitely a plus in my books.
desconocida
Son
That's a very well-deserved compliment and I wholeheartedly agree.
MAMBO_CEC
Son Montuno
Exactly, I’ve said this from day 1, he doesn’t deny it. His protégés like Diego Rivera, Elian Gomez and Javier Escobar are some of the most popular instructors and dancers in the US and they’re in turn clones of Adolfo (in my opinion). I like these guys along with Eddie Junior are keeping the New York ‘Mambo’ tradition alive. No Euro On2 for these cats. I recently saw a video saying that NY on2 should die and that it never existed. I guess it was published by someone who has no idea about the History of NY on2 and why the method was used by ET. He should have spent some time on SF reading comments in the past years by Terrence et al.
I think this would need a deeper dive. What exactly is meant by "greatest student"? There have been so many very good dancers that have passed through ET - Griselle Ponce, Nancy Ortiz, Delille Tomas, Angel Ortiz, Frankie Martinez, Eddie Jr, Gabe Perez, Adolfo, Shani, Juan Matos, Seaon Bristol, Maria Torres, etc.
desconocida
Son
I think it's pretty self-explanatory: many very good ones, some great ones, probably, and the one among them who ET deemed worthy of the attribute "greatest" is Franklin. Doesn't take away from anyone's achievements and can be considered subjective, but why would the choice require any further clarification?
Greatest in what sense exactly? Just trying to better understand the point. As a student or as a professional dancer on their own?
Small fishes fighting in a tiny pond
I am chuckling at the line “his contribution to the world will live till end of time”. Outside of small studio salsa scene of NYC, ET’s contribution in the larger salsa world is not something that rises to the level of prominence. It is noteworthy only if you are part of modern on2 scene. I doubt how many of new younger (and older) dances hear of him or know of his contribution.
Small fishes fighting in a tiny pond
I am chuckling at the line “his contribution to the world will live till end of time”. Outside of small studio salsa scene of NYC, ET’s contribution in the larger salsa world is not something that rises to the level of prominence. It is noteworthy only if you are part of modern on2 scene. I doubt how many of new younger (and older) dances hear of him or know of his contribution.
Even in the On2 dance community. If FM is seen now as an old head with an outdated brand, what is ET known as? A lot of newbies might not even know who he is or care.
As long as On2 exists we all owe that to ET, and future generations will get to enjoy On2 even if they don’t know who ET was, that’s undeniable. We are indebted to him.Small fishes fighting in a tiny pond
I am chuckling at the line “his contribution to the world will live till end of time”. Outside of small studio salsa scene of NYC, ET’s contribution in the larger salsa world is not something that rises to the level of prominence. It is noteworthy only if you are part of modern on2 scene. I doubt how many of new younger (and older) dances hear of him or know of his contribution.
Ok, I'm suuuper late to the game, but in my defense - I quit salsa for five years some time inbetween... I did go through the whole thread and I'm surprised nobody ever mentioned Franklin: he's been performing and teaching "Mon Ti" for years by now, consistently making money out of that choreography in form of bootcamps. I have never compared it side-by-side with ET's original (in part because the older videos I found featured this routine as a somewhat different concept), but I think after so many years ET's "patent" may have ran out and Franklin is perfectly entitled to the use of the "generic"
Also, I'm happy to look at Franklin perform all day any day and, moreover, his contribution to the community has been so immense, him further popularizing a classic choreo is definitely a plus in my books.
Can you please point me to some examples of Mon Ti choreography? I'll make a separate thread for this topic.
Omg whenever I see these 3 guys, the first thing that comes to my mind is 'Clones'. I got really tired of watching them doing the same moves over and over in their choreos , which to me looks like them trying hard to imitate Adolfo, who in turn imitated ET. FM and FD look like geniuses at choreography compared to these guys.
I'd rather just switch on ETJr if I want to watch modern Mambo, Pachanga, Cha Cha Cha and Boogaloo. Even if he never steps out of his father's shadow, I still consider his dancing head over heels above the others.
There's one London based dancer (Lewis Barr) who is heavily Mambo influenced but is more original and looks better to me.
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FM and Juan Matos carried the mantle for NYC mambo worldwide for many years and were at the forefront. Both were stylish and artistic in their own ways.
Some dancers really don't become prominent until others leave and a lane opens up for them. It's interesting to me how some dancers/artists burn out, leave the scene, get older, die out or fall off and it opens a lane for others to emerge. This is probably the case with people like Magna, Juan Matos, FM, ET and others that dominated the mambo scene for so long and eventually left a lane open for others to emerge. Or perhaps one dancer ascending in a space while another is descending is just coincidental?
I guess some would argue that there are some dancers that have created their own lane and didn't need one opened for them. Perhaps someone like Terry or Maykel Fonts might be an example of that?
I guess some would argue that there are some dancers that have created their own lane and didn't need one opened for them. Perhaps someone like Terry or Maykel Fonts might be an example of that?
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desconocida
Son
That's a harsh and imho a slightly silly take. These guys - and I am referring more to Diego and Elian, because, frankly, I don't see Javi as being on the same level as them yet - LOVE and popularize mambo. They are still very young (I don't even think Elian is 25 yet) and at the beginning of their respective careers, why do we expect them to reinvent the wheel to prove their worth? There are only so many stylistic variations that can be done and I assume, they've all been done at some point already. There isn't much new to invent and that's fine - many people fell in love with MAMBO and that's what they want to see and learn and what they get from artists that you're so dismissively describe as "clones". And btw., they really aren't. Yes, they're both shorter, petite guys who, doing the same movements will look somewhat similar, but especially Diego has proven numerous times with his routines with Yaritza that they have something exciting to show to the public - their routines aren't clones of Adolfo's choreographies at all. It is purposely old-school but always with a modern twist. When talking about social dancing - ok, I guess one could say Diego is not "spectacular" in the sense that he doesn't do anything new. But that's exactly the point - it's social dance, there for human connection and experiencing music together (and yes, I happen to know that this is how Diego sees it and have enjoyed numerous dances with him, moreover have heard many women rave about how much they enjoyed their dances with him). At the end of the day, you'll get criticised either way: if you're Franklin or Frankie you don't care about your partner, if you're Diego or Elian (also a tremendously fun social dancer, btw.) you're a clone. You certainly don't need to look at somebody who you don't want to see but young, super nice, pretty knowledgeable and still developing dancers who are always on the social dance floor dancing with everyone the entire night are definitely a huge plus for this community.
And, btw., Franklin is a genius not because he does something new: he's barely added any moves to his repertoire over the past 15 years. In fact, sometimes you see him teach almost the same sequence he's taught 15 years ago. He's a genius because he constantly evolves his movement, because you can look at him doing essentially the same steps over and over again and discover that he added new nuances. His quality of movement and the way he keep evolving it after so many years is absolutely unmatched in the salsa world (I'm pretty sure, if he was so fortunate to receive ballet lessons early on, he could have gotten on to become one of the greatest in that genre, as well - provided his body would have permitted that, of course). Will Diego or Elian become a second Franklin? Probably not (though Elian is a very talented dancer, who knows where his journey will take him). Do they contribute to this scene? Absolutely!
And yes, I quite enjoy watching ET Junior as well, that doesn't take away from others. Luis is fun to watch, too, I guess him having paired up with Katrin was a tremendous blessing for him because this is what naturally made him add a bit of Broadway glam to his dancing and makes him stand out more. Without that, you'd probably consider him yet another "clone", by those metrics.