Spin the Lady only on 2nd measure?

[Ashwin Jain]

This has been bugging me for a while. Do we spin the ladies only on 5,6,7 as a rule and never on 1,2,3? Some instructor told me this recently(as a rule!), and indeed i see that 90% of the time, except for the wrap turn. Other than the prep , is there any reason behind it? Can we turn experienced followers on 1,2,3 who need not much prep?

Thanks,
Ashwin

 

[MacMoto]

Hi Ashwin, welcome to Salsa Forums

I'm assuming you are talking on1 (when dancing on2, the follower spins over the 1-2-3).

In slot-based salsa styles, you tend to structure moves where you have the setup measure (where the leader sets up a move) and the execution measure (where the follower executes the move/turn). In on1, 1-2-3 is the setup and 5-6-7 is the execution. On2, you set up over the 5-6-7 and execute over the 1-2-3 (or should it be 6-7-1 / 2-3-5? I need to think about this...). However, this timing is not necessarily followed in spins. Spins are rule breakers, and that's why you need to prep the follower - in order to get the follower to break away from the basic step.

There are several points you need to bear in mind when spinning the follower:

- Right (clockwise) spins are executed on the right foot; left (counter-clockwise) spins are executed on the left foot

- The follower's weight need to be on the foot on which she's going to pivot

- The follower needs to know that she's expected to spin (i.e., the leader needs to prep the follower)

- The follower needs be allowed to take a back break at the end of the spin

As long as these conditions are met, you can spin the follower on different beats.

In a single right turn, the follower turns on the 6 - the 5 is a step forward on the left foot. Pivoting is done on the 6 when the weight is on the right foot. This is done using the basic step timing, so minimal prep is required.

In a double right spin, the leader gives the follower a prep so she doesn't shift her weight to the left foot on the 5. This allows him to spin her on the 5 and 7.

You can squeeze more spins by either turning her faster over the 5-6-7, or starting the spins earlier. If you prep her over the 1-2, she can start spinning from the 3. If the conditions are optimal (good floor + spinny follower + perfect prep from the leader), you can probably get 5-6 spins over the 3-4-5-6-7-8.

You mentioned the wrap turn. In this move, the follower's turn over the 5-6-7 acts as a spin prep, so she can start spinning from the 1 (or even 8 if your prep is clear, but it usually feels a bit too hurried).

All these are about right spins, but there's no reason why you couldn't spin the follower to the left (except the fact that most followers are so used to spinning to the right, left spins often catch them by surprise I know guys who like to give a "right spins, check-prep, left spins" sequence, and I'm rubbish at following the left spins part ).

 

[Ashwin Jain]

Thanks MacMoto. Thats a very good post. makes sense!

Yes I meant ON1..

 

[SmartAlx]

Excellent post as usual MacMoto.

Ashwin, they teach that the second measure is for the girls at my studio too. But as I got more and more experience and eventually began to teach myself, I learned that you can actually turn a girl on any beat. You just have to prep her properly. You have to understand if you need to redirect her and time the redirection properly. A good example is leading the girl in a left spin. What MacMoto said is true for a right spin: you begin her spin on 5 because you have prepped her early. But try to figure out how you would spin a girl to her left. Would you lead her to spin on the 4, on the 5, or on the 6? When would you prep her? Would she get confused and start to spin to the right? How would you prevent that? Would you need to check or redirect her? Could you spin her on the 1 or the 2? Depending on what you had her do on the 7 and 8, you can actually get her to spin on the 1 or the 2.

You should take an instructor's rules of thumb with a grain of salt. A lot of instructors give rules of thumb that are really only applicable to beginning and intermediate level moves. Since most of their students will never reach the advanced stage, it's understandable. When you get to the advanced stage, you start to understand the rules and circumstances enough to redefine the rules. And when you really philosphize about salsa the way that MacMoto and some of the other experts here do (and me - although I would hardly call myself expert), you create rules of thumb that are true for any level, even the beginning levels. That's what MacMoto has given you: rules that are true for all levels, even beginning and advanced levels. I find these globally true rules of thumb the most valuable, especially to the beginning and intermediate students. You'll really only get those kinds of rules from truly advanced salsa instructors, which I'm finding is a pretty rare breed.

(This is a good reason to try to seek out instructors who are also advanced dancers. There are a lot of excellent salsa instructors who might be solid intermediate dancers. They are good at leading a class and explaining the beginning and intermediate steps. And they are probabaly a lot of fun to learn from. They might be fun to dance with and they probably look good dancing intermediate patterns. But they aren't genuine advanced dancers so they probably only know the rules of thumb that are true for beginning and intermediate levels. They can only teach you so much before you have to start unlearning. I don't want to unlearn something in order to become an advanced dancer.

I'm not trying to knock any of your instructors understand. Some of my best friends fit this description. You just need to understand what you are getting in to when you start learning. If you don't care about getting to the advanced level, then these fun intermediate instructors are probably perfect for you. But if you ever want to become advanced, then you'll probably want to find some additional instructors who can push you up to the next level.)

 

[opm1s6]

Depends on what level you are. At an advanced level on2 there are plenty of patterns where the follow is asked to do more on 567, but they're usually because of an innate prep that was developed from the pattern in 123, and the momentum is continued through 567 into an automatic prep. Not sure if you'll see much of this in the ET styled patterns, but the schools known for performance salsa have made a science of it. I'm sure similar things can be done in on1.

 

[Ashwin Jain]

Hey, I have been thinking in terms of those listed by MacMoto rules lately.. this really opened up my mind
do we sometimes execute half turns on opposite leg - right turn on left foot and left turn on right foot. We do that in cross body here.. girl steps forward 2 steps and does a half turn

 

[DaveFUK]

This has been bugging me for a while. Do we spin the ladies only on 5,6,7 as a rule and never on 1,2,3? Some instructor told me this recently(as a rule!), and indeed i see that 90% of the time, except for the wrap turn. Other than the prep , is there any reason behind it? Can we turn experienced followers on 1,2,3 who need not much prep?

You can spin the follower on any beat you want just follow Macmoto's principles.
The key is the prep. If the follower isn't preped then it's not gonna work(very well!).
If the follower has good follow technique then you can prep them on any count and there lies the rub, many followers don't have good enough follow technique to recognise/follow a prep on an unusual(to them) count.

When introducing spin prep for the first time I always preface it with things like 'as far as you're concerned at the moment spins happen 5,6,7' because at the level they're at it does! However once the students progress we give them technique and exposure to prep and spin on all counts.

You can't give a new born baby Steak and Chips and there's no point explaining why they can't have it cos they wouldn't understand the explaination

 

[DaveFUK]

Excellent post as usual MacMoto.

Ashwin, they teach that the second measure is for the girls at my studio too. But as I got more and more experience and eventually began to teach myself, I learned that you can actually turn a girl on any beat. You just have to prep her properly. You have to understand if you need to redirect her and time the redirection properly. A good example is leading the girl in a left spin. What MacMoto said is true for a right spin: you begin her spin on 5 because you have prepped her early. But try to figure out how you would spin a girl to her left. Would you lead her to spin on the 4, on the 5, or on the 6? When would you prep her? Would she get confused and start to spin to the right? How would you prevent that? Would you need to check or redirect her? Could you spin her on the 1 or the 2? Depending on what you had her do on the 7 and 8, you can actually get her to spin on the 1 or the 2.

You should take an instructor's rules of thumb with a grain of salt. A lot of instructors give rules of thumb that are really only applicable to beginning and intermediate level moves. Since most of their students will never reach the advanced stage, it's understandable. When you get to the advanced stage, you start to understand the rules and circumstances enough to redefine the rules. And when you really philosphize about salsa the way that MacMoto and some of the other experts here do (and me - although I would hardly call myself expert), you create rules of thumb that are true for any level, even the beginning levels. That's what MacMoto has given you: rules that are true for all levels, even beginning and advanced levels. I find these globally true rules of thumb the most valuable, especially to the beginning and intermediate students. You'll really only get those kinds of rules from truly advanced salsa instructors, which I'm finding is a pretty rare breed.

An excellent reply to MacMotos excellent reply

(This is a good reason to try to seek out instructors who are also advanced dancers. There are a lot of excellent salsa instructors who might be solid intermediate dancers. They are good at leading a class and explaining the beginning and intermediate steps. And they are probabaly a lot of fun to learn from. They might be fun to dance with and they probably look good dancing intermediate patterns. But they aren't genuine advanced dancers so they probably only know the rules of thumb that are true for beginning and intermediate levels. They can only teach you so much before you have to start unlearning. I don't want to unlearn something in order to become an advanced dancer.

Totally agree with you here as well, but...
The 'rules of thumb' for advanced dancers are actually 'rules of thumb' for all dancers no matter what the level of dancers. It's just that they're not so obvious in beginners dancing style.
The reasons many of these 'rules of thumb' never get taught is exactly what you've said above.

A good teacher will feed their students 'the rules' gradually as the their students become proficient in previous material. As I mentioned else where on this topic 'you can't feed Steak and Chips to a new born baby' BUT you can do everything in your power to prepare them for it in full knowledge of what is to come!
No matter how good a teacher a person is if they don't understand basic fundamentals in intimate detail or if they've no idea of what's to come, or have no plan for getting their students there then there's either going to be a plateux or an unlearning process.

You CAN take complete novices and start to prepare them for being advanced dancers (what ever that might mean ) from day 1, gradually feeding the info they require BUT you do need to know exactly where they're going AND you need to understand the journey yourself!

 

[DaveFUK]

Depends on what level you are. At an advanced level on2 there are plenty of patterns where the follow is asked to do more on 567, but they're usually because of an innate prep that was developed from the pattern in 123, and the momentum is continued through 567 into an automatic prep. Not sure if you'll see much of this in the ET styled patterns, but the schools known for performance salsa have made a science of it. I'm sure similar things can be done in on1.

Yamulee do loads of this sort of stuff.

 

[azzey]

Personally speaking (apart from the rules MacMoto and various people mentioned) I spin the girl to specific accents of the music.

If the accents are on 67, then setup for 5 is good. If the accents are earlier then a setup by 2 followed by however many spins to fit the accents following.

I call this technique "musical spins". Haha I just named it.

 

[SmartAlx]

Totally agree with you here as well, but...
The 'rules of thumb' for advanced dancers are actually 'rules of thumb' for all dancers no matter what the level of dancers. It's just that they're not so obvious in beginners dancing style.
The reasons many of these 'rules of thumb' never get taught is exactly what you've said above.

Was that my point that not all instructors are created equal? At my dance studio we have, uh 8 or 9 salsa instructors. Only one of them is an advanced salsa dancer. Guess who understands the rules better than anyone else? Guess who is better at teaching beginning students.

So a teacher might still give you THEIR rules of thumb, but their rules of thumb might NOT be applicable to all levels of dance, especially if they are not advanced dancers. Their rules of thumb might be completely wrong, as in this case of turning a girl only on the second measure.

No matter how good a teacher a person is if they don't understand basic fundamentals in intimate detail or if they've no idea of what's to come, or have no plan for getting their students there then there's either going to be a plateux or an unlearning process.

Exactly. That's one of the complaints advanced dancers have with the studio I go to.

You CAN take complete novices and start to prepare them for being advanced dancers (what ever that might mean ) from day 1, gradually feeding the info they require BUT you do need to know exactly where they're going AND you need to understand the journey yourself!

Precisely.

 

[DaveFUK]

Was that my point that not all instructors are created equal? At my dance studio we have, uh 8 or 9 salsa instructors. Only one of them is an advanced salsa dancer. Guess who understands the rules better than anyone else? Guess who is better at teaching beginning students.

I totally agree, all instructors are not created equal and there are a lot around who think they are more equal then they actually are

The best teachers should always be teaching the beginners!
It's where the fundamentals are laid down and it's the place where the most good AND the most damage can be done!

It always makes me smile when I go around various classes and see that the beginners are more often than not 'relegated' to being taught be a new teacher/poor teacher/teachers assistant!
It's one of the ways I judge a school/class. If the top bloke isn't teaching/taking an active roll in the beginners classes then I'm usually dubious about the quality of teaching full stop.
Over the years I've realised I actually get the most enjoyment out of teaching beginners. Every week another 'door' opens for them and it's very fullfilling to see the looks on their faces and know you've helped them open that door.
Don't get me wrong I enjoy teaching the advanced classes as much as the next guy and too be quite honest the classes I least enjoy are the middle level classes.

 

[SmartAlx]

Oh I don't really enjoy teaching the advanced levels. Too easy. Then it becomes more about teaching moves rather than concepts. I like teaching people how to dance. I don't care so much about teaching them once they get there.

I really enjoy teaching the middle level classes the most. I think this is where students really learn the most. Beginners are easy to teach since you know what they know, nothing. Advanced students are easy to teach because they learn quickly. But improver/intermediate, they are the most challenging. Intermediate classes have people who just entered from the beginning class. They need to learn slowly. And at the same time intermediat classes have more experienced students who are almost ready to jump to the advanced level. They learn quickly and become bored when you teach slowly. It takes a very talented teacher to keep the entire class interested. I love that challenge.

In addition to that, the students each week learn something new and in a matter of a few weeks you can see them improve. That gives me a real boost. It's the improver/intermediate levels that really create the dancer.

But yeah, I do agree that the beginning levels should be taught by advanced dancers.