Skill progression in Salsa... insanely slow?
- Thread starter Chris_Yannick
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It takes a while for Linear leads to get going but when they get there, it is noticeable. I remember watching guys struggle tremendously but when they finally 'got' it, it was like watching a totally different person dancing.
At most Linear parties I've been to, the skill gap can be quite high between the good and bad dancers so the good ones stick out.
When I go to a Cuban party, everyone kind of blends in together. It takes some time before I notice the good leads.
But then what is the criteria for what a good lead looks like? Flash doesn't do anything for me. Nor do guys who look like they lead rough.
At most Linear parties I've been to, the skill gap can be quite high between the good and bad dancers so the good ones stick out.
When I go to a Cuban party, everyone kind of blends in together. It takes some time before I notice the good leads.
But then what is the criteria for what a good lead looks like? Flash doesn't do anything for me. Nor do guys who look like they lead rough.
Well, just search for "rueda de casino" or something similar and you will most likely find that in many videos (outside of Cuba) many, if not most of the leaders are executing the most basic moves poorly.
Seeing as it took 4 schools and 8 instructors and lots of self study to get what I needed to know, i doesn't surprise me. I don't know about the casino scene but you were taking a stab in the dark with your teacher. It's not like "accreditation" where you knew you would get what was essential in 101 before moving on. I almost see it as the no child left behind fail where so many people move on who shouldn't. I understand that in other dances, you get a certificate from an inter/national body who certifies you as a competent instructor. That in itself is no guarantee but helps.
As I said earlier, the versatile nature of linear and infinite combinations make it a tougher dance. For the brief time I did rueda, it was not as exciting. Apples to oranges.
As I said earlier, the versatile nature of linear and infinite combinations make it a tougher dance. For the brief time I did rueda, it was not as exciting. Apples to oranges.
GentleDancer
Son
Especially rueda is for having fun and if it is not a specialized rueda group you will mostly see something funny but not proficient. Also it is nearly always somewhat hectic, so leaders have even less time for doing it right. Beginners will get into a mess.
One time I had participated as a follower and although this a year ago I still remember that every leader (except the teacher) was pinching my fingers in a nearly painful way. Yes, this was not fun.
Over here, there is some kind of complex where Cuban style dancers tend to put Cubans on a pedestal. As a result, many see authentic Cuban dancing as something that they will never attain and thus settle for dancing for fun.
On the flipside, Linear dancers don't give much regard to Cuba or anywhere else. Their heroes are all social dancers. Good dancing is good dancing. So many leaders can inject a lot of their own personality into a dance to the point where it no longer resembles Latin dancing. However, the idea of proficiency is not measured by a single culture's standard and there is no authenticity restriction placed upon them.
I can see this applied to my own dancing. When I practice Rumba in public, I am being judged by the 'Cuban standard' and therefore I am more mindful about it because I don't want to break too far from the mold and look ridiculous. People will look at me and say "well, that's not how it looks like in Cuba.. therefore he sucks"
However, when dancing a Linear dance with Mambo shines, no one looks at you and says "that's not how they do it in New York." Nobody gives a crap about how they danced in New York or the Palladium. There are so many good dancers outside of New York (and the Americas) that there is no standard for what good Linear dancing should look like. You can be considered a good Linear dancer with zero body movement as long as you lead like a god... we have plenty of examples of those around.
I think this reasoning can partly be attributed as to why there seem to be more proficient Linear leaders compared to Casino leaders.
On the flipside, Linear dancers don't give much regard to Cuba or anywhere else. Their heroes are all social dancers. Good dancing is good dancing. So many leaders can inject a lot of their own personality into a dance to the point where it no longer resembles Latin dancing. However, the idea of proficiency is not measured by a single culture's standard and there is no authenticity restriction placed upon them.
I can see this applied to my own dancing. When I practice Rumba in public, I am being judged by the 'Cuban standard' and therefore I am more mindful about it because I don't want to break too far from the mold and look ridiculous. People will look at me and say "well, that's not how it looks like in Cuba.. therefore he sucks"
However, when dancing a Linear dance with Mambo shines, no one looks at you and says "that's not how they do it in New York." Nobody gives a crap about how they danced in New York or the Palladium. There are so many good dancers outside of New York (and the Americas) that there is no standard for what good Linear dancing should look like. You can be considered a good Linear dancer with zero body movement as long as you lead like a god... we have plenty of examples of those around.
I think this reasoning can partly be attributed as to why there seem to be more proficient Linear leaders compared to Casino leaders.
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Wouldn't the dance become more fun if they could perform basic leads well instead of dozens of variations?
In my opinion the problem is mostly the teaching. The instructors dance one way, but teach a more simplified version to attain higher retention of new students.
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dancingmaquina
Changui
I totally agree! Yesterday, I was looking at class offerings in my scene. One of the local schools just finished an eight-week progressive series for beginners. The next session -- and the only class available at this school-- is for advanced beginners; so, it is clear that this course is aimed at the last series' participants. How are you an advanced beginner after only eight weeks? What does that communicate to you about the level of skill needed to "dance well"? What is even worse is there are virtually no progressive classes for intermediate dancers in this area! So, in the next eight weeks when you are an intermediate dancer you will have to rely on either drop-in classes, infrequent workshops or a performance team to develop your skills. And, while it is possible that through some of these mechanisms one may become a better dancer, I I think that it is unlikely that one will become a good dancer.
I understand that there will be always instructors that are only in it for money. I also understand that the will always be students who will never care to improve. My frustration is that there are not enough spaces for or teachers interested in developing serious dancers. I used to think of Congresses as ideal spaces to bring more serious dancers together because of the talent level of performers and teachers and the interest level that I thought the high cost to participate might attract. But, more and more beginner dancers are dominating the dance floor at Congresses in the U.S. It is so discouraging to travel and not enjoy the social dancing. With that said, I would love some recommendations for US Congresses where the dancing quality tends to skew a little higher!
I think that's more an ideal than reality. The reality of social dancing is that the more variations of moves you know, the more you can impress your partner. Or at least not bore them as much.
The other thing is that people almost never compliment others on leading basic things well.
However, being surprised, adding variety and not being predictable is routinely praised.
Not necessarily true in my experience. I get compliments for leading skills and smoothness (to some extent for body movement from bystanders) but never for variations. And I constantly hear complaimts about leaders who do complex variations but can't lead well.
The exact words wasn't about leading variations but the insinuation is that leaders aren't boring them.
Btw, the number one complaint I hear are leads being rough.
In that case the best way is to say funny jokes
Funny, I was just involved in one of these pointless debates the other day.
Anyway, in the US there are lots of bad casino leads for sure, hopefully I'm not one of them! A few observations (in no particular order):
- Instructors - in their never-ending and quixotic quest for authenticity - are sacrificing good dancing mechanics and technique on the altar of political dance correctness. You can't change the laws of physics
- I have become convinced that a lot of instructors feel threatened if any of their students become too good, hence they simply want to stand up and maintain an army of compliant, perpetual beginners. Who cares if you're a lousy dancer, at least you're not back-stepping, right?
- The endless distractions and workshops - rumba, afro, son, danzon, choreos, etc. Nothing against any of those pursuits, but none of that is going to make you dance rice and beans casino any better. See my point above
- The idea that there are the huddled masses out there yearning for authentic Cuban culture - most ppl just want to dance "mainstream" casino and/or linear. All this esoteric stuff is a niche market
- The insistance on only playing timba in class and at socials (especially the fast heavy stuff)
The problem w/ the traditional Miami rueda curriculum was that it front-loaded all of these patty-cake group moves into the Beginner level(s). Fun moves, but they should be spread out more so you can focus on your "building block" casino moves.
My 2 cents. Carry on.
I only said search for reuda videos because then you probably get a variety of different skill levels but can get a pretty good overview about the general level.
With moves such as "pa bajo", I can only imagine
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Ironically for me, latinos and latinas seem to enjoy watching me dance because I inject a lot of personality into my dance. When I was dancing with my wifey (common law) in cuba I got more reactions (positive) from locals when I added more silliness to my mediocre casino.. even up here I find the casino crowd more forgiving. The geographical differences fascinate me.
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Well it's more interesting than to watch robots. There is life and energy vs the forced fake performance pattern monkey. You had fun and shared something others found fun too
If I ever get back, I should check out the Casino scene and see if there is as much Cuba idolizing/romanticizing as there is here. Not sure if Son is even a thing in Canada, but would be very curious to see if there are people who dance it.
I know what to expect from the Linear scene and I find what people like no matter where you are in the world to be pretty consistent.. (namely a light, clear lead, musicality...).
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I only said search for reuda videos because then you probably get a variety of different skill levels but can get a pretty good overview about the general level.
With moves such as "pa bajo", I can only imagine
The rueda comment wasn't directed at you, it was for ppl who think you need to reinvent the wheel (no pun intended) to teach casino.
As for Pa Bajo, cracks me up how you guys treat that move as some sort of casino Holy Grail or purity test. Speaking of which, remember the video of the guy from Casino D'Primera you posted a few weeks ago? Guess which version he learned. I know this is a tough one so take your time
I am not a purist at all, I do not even consider myself a casino dancer. The "salsa class" closest to where I lived at that time just happened to be taught by a Cuban but I quit after a few lessons
But the move surely looks quite funny
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Vlad teaches casino and dances Son. He advocates for forward stepping in his classes as its integral to the moves he calls. There is a cuban guy that teaches son. I'm not.sure about the scene itself a I usually only come across casino dancers rarely. He is Latino and learned in Cuba so he has his biases lol. But hes not stuck up about it.