Silence or lack of leadership in salsa dancing community?

[Chris_Yannick]

Just to compare,

The other community I'm involved in has a special forum where people can post videos of themselves and get feedback. The trainers/coaches/membership are always commenting and offering advice. The membership is very active (about 800 members total but not all are active) and many are committed to improving, regardless of their skill level. On the forum side, there is an area where members can keep a regular log/diary of their activities and many coaches/trainers read the logs and give encouragement. No one is forcing anything. Members are doing this on their own spare time. Trainers also host live work-out sessions as well as do Q&A almost weekly. This is all happening online too.

I have never seen this in the Salsa community. Even for a monthly paid subsciption, you can't get this level of feedback. There seems to be a lack of commitment on both the student and teacher side. I'm not sure if this is specific for Salsa, or dancing in general.

But in the fitness world, I've noticed it's entirely different. People are motivated. You can find a lot of like-minded people to build a community around and the leaders act like actual leaders. The level of accountability is worlds apart.

To make matters worse, the pricing subscription model for Salsa is quite high for what is essentially pre-recorded classes without live feedback.

 

[Offbeat]

I had made

I had made a comment on Joel's fb ad about loving his program but missing one little thing.
and he actually messaged me and asked what it was. I was surprised. Not sure if that's what you mean.

Being responsive is good. Leadership in community is a lot more. It is about caring and being the interested in growing the community. ET did it for a long time in 90s and 2000s in the NYC.

Except for a few isolated places, there is none in the salsa world. Neither at local level nor at international level.

 

[Offbeat]

I only see this with competition. I guess define "leadership." It's starting to feel like a niche vs a social venue. This would have to be an instructor who acts as the DJ as well.

There are other dance communities where you do see leadership in community and the people caring enough to step in as leaders.

 

[Smiley79]

There are other dance communities where you do see leadership in community and the people caring enough to step in as leaders.

A few more groups started popping up in NYC to get socials started again. Going to test out a few and see what they bring. Unfortunately, for us working folks who aren't making a living in the entertainment or music industry, taking this role is too taxing. If I hit the lotto however.....

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Being responsive is good. Leadership in community is a lot more. It is about caring and being the interested in growing the community.

I agree. Being responsive and answering questions is the bare minimum

Leadership, IMO, is about nurturing and fostering community.

High profile Salsa instructors rely on their name to get business. But they have no idea how to provide goodwill to their communities.

One reason I ended Eddie Torres Jr's paid subscription service is because once all the recorded media was consumed, very little value was being added. He himself goes long periods in absenteeism and the community is stagnant. There is no long term vision and it's obvious that this is only a pet side project.

As a leader, you can't abandon your community like that. If you can't be there personally, build a team that can.

In the fitness community I'm in, I get feedback all the time, not only directly but indirectly in the form of encouragement. But If I ever have any specific questions, I will get an answer right away from the community or the trainers. They built up so much goodwill that even when I don't actively participate, I always feel like I am part of a community.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

A few more groups started popping up in NYC to get socials started again. Going to test out a few and see what they bring. Unfortunately, for us working folks who aren't making a living in the entertainment or music industry, taking this role is too taxing. If I hit the lotto however.....

If I had unlimited time, money and resources to do whatever I want, I wouldn't try starting anything in the scene. I'd be a bigger consumer and do more dancing in exotic places for sure, but mobilizing people in the Salsa community is not something I consider fun or enjoyable.

I feel the same way about teaching Salsa. I think it's completely energy draining. Passionate teachers can do it, but I'm not that type of person who can put out that much energy and gain relatively little in return. Plus anything that isn't 1-to-1 drains my energy.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Salsa leadership feels like sudden bursts of energy followed by long periods of inaction.

Someone has a good idea, spends a lot of time organizing it, executes it, then there is a void. A period when nothing happens.

May just be the nature of the beast. Salsa people like the highs and can get off on it, but I think of Salsa as a consistent buzz. My enjoyment of Salsa never wavers nor does it depend on what the next greatest thing is being organized.

 

[MrR]

Looking back at experiences with several Salsa/Bachata scenes and the rebuilding after Corona, I see another problem:
While there are local "leaders", there is a high level of tolerance towards different forms of corruption - while making a serious business out of it (= asking good money for good quality) is often frowned upon.

There is a strong sense of "it has to be free".
And well, the corruption of "free" is the second intentions. Many parties I have seen being organized by guys abusing this position of influence to hit on every girl to the right and left - often guys in their 50s using their chance to get at student girls half their age. Quickly leading to strong protective behaviors - clique building and closeness towards new/different.
On the other hand the corona dancers who were organizing secret parties here are using now their position of power to spread their antivaxxer ideologies, openly attacking organizers who actually somewhat enforce the rules and who ask for a sustainable entrance fee. Plus of course spreading their general alternative facts world view.
And well, all of these people then of course are not from the selection of people who would be able to sell dance skills, as they themselves are often at best established local dancers.
Additionally these "free" organizers put everyone who asks for a sustainable amount of money into the money milker's corner instantly.

And well, as any kind of business is seen as money milking anyway, many instantly turn towards it:
Either they fill their classes with anyone willed to pay - quickly making them an accumulation of basically failed dancers and no room to learn - supporting the idea that you can learn more without classes.
Or they ask for exorbitant prices for rather bad workshops, also filled with too many people and simple frontal (or central in the case of a circle) teaching. Often done by young show couples who quickly make a dime to finance their university degree and forget about it afterwards anyway.
Investing the time and effort to nurture sustainable classes with room for actual improvement? Not really. Only if it's for the personal benefit = show groups to present.

And yeah, there is the next point lurking:
It's all about the show and the prestige.
Actual improvement of social dancers is rare. Everything marketed is show dancing, styling, patterns, prestige. Names, looks, status.

And once a business is running it's all about nepotism.
Having encountered actual dancing DJs in the Zouk scene I learned to understand, how much a DJ can frick up a party. Just that Salsa and Bachata DJs seem to be only selected by their personal connection to the organizers - and by being cheap. (Oh, and by race/origin. So many really, really crappy DJs marketed by nationality...)
And the female "teachers" in 9 out of 10 cases are cute mid level dancers whom the teacher is hitting on / dating.

And well, then this combination of being cheap on the one hand and then many people being willed to overpay once something is prestigious enough.


And yeah, the personal involvement again:
On an average S-B-K Party you can tell whom the teachers clique is, just by watching the room for 15-30 minutes. It's often a mixture of hype and segregation.
On many (small) Zouk events you could not tell the traveling international star from some high level local and in general there is MUCH less segregation of the different dance levels. And yes, the scenes which actually produce improvement are the scenes without this prestigious segregation.


When I started dancing I was in an environment, where the teachers were actually involved to the social dancing on a personal level and my teacher built up the scene of his students. He invested into improving himself and his students. He taught insights, not just patterns. Looking back, he was the best Salsa teacher I ever had, despite being just a PhD student giving classes once per week for the fun of spreading his hobby.
He advertised every party far and wide and organized going there together, so people did not stay behind.
Just he left when his PhD came into the difficult phase.
Years later, after moving to a bad scene, I went to a large festival half way between those two scenes. I met more people from my old classes than from my whole new scene. Within his activity phase of about 2 years that teacher had produced a lasting effect.
If I did not meet such a community builder that early in my dance career, it would have ended again after less than a year.

 

[TikiTaka]

Is there actually money to be made in the salsa scene?

 

[MrR]

Is there actually money to be made in the salsa scene?

That is the problem:
It is hard to make a sustainable money in a mentality of "it has to be free or star", but if you time it right you can make a quick dime for low quality.
Less in Salsa, more so in Bachata nowadays. (Also the Kizomba scene seems to be great in commercializing, but I am not into that scene at all.)
For someone meaning to make a business for decades, it's more tempting to fill the classes with lost cases and at least have a steady income.
For a young show couple it's more temping to give overcrowded workshops and milk money from the next generation of 0-2 years dancers. That doesn't last long but as they are mostly students, who will have a better income soon anyway, they don't care.
And never have seen actually good dance teachers most of their students can't tell how crappy of teachers they actually are. And when they start to, they simply stop taking classes - leaving the actually good teachers without a customer base aside from elderly "class goers".

 

[TikiTaka]

It is hard to make a sustainable money in a mentality of "it has to be free or star", but if you time it right you can make a quick dime for low quality.

Well I have seen some workshops here taught by amateurs who do not have good fundamentals charging almost as much as workshops taught by real pros, e.g. Diana Rodriguez, Bersy Cortez, Luis Vasquez. Why charge at all if you are not that good?

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Is there actually money to be made in the salsa scene?

Very little. I've met many social dancers who organically became DJs and teachers. They always start with good intentions. They want to build the scene, attract more people, make their city more attractive....yada yada... Most end up treadmilling, not really going anywhere. The most 'successful' end up traveling and becoming more well-known but through building their own brand, not by building community. Sticking around and building a community isn't seen as profitable. Being a well recognized personality in the scene is more desirable. Even though I think there is more money in building a sustainable scene, most people get drawn to the spotlight and their ambitions take them away from building local scenes and instead they focus on stardom.

The problem with going the latter route is that they only have so many good years before they become old and someone else comes along who's better. I would hate to be a dancer whose income is reliant on physical skill sets alone. Only a select few will reach a point where their stardom gives them financial independence, but I think that has more to do with their business savvy and ability to transform themselves.

 

[TikiTaka]

Being a well recognized personality in the scene is more desirable. Even though I think there is more money in building a sustainable scene, most people get drawn to the spotlight and their ambitions take them away from building local scenes and instead they focus on stardom.

Also what is the point of being a "star" in the dance scene lol? Seems to be the goal for a lot of people

 

[MrR]

Well I have seen some workshops here taught by amateurs who do not have good fundamentals charging almost as much as workshops taught by real pros, e.g. Diana Rodriguez, Bersy Cortez, Luis Vasquez. Why charge at all if you are not that good?

Those are the money milkers I am talking about.

It's not a sustainable business in most cases, as long as word spreads how bad they are.
But instead of going to a (usually not existing!) better option, people leave those workshops all together - my own story!

But yeah, many of those star workshops you can forget about, too.
Most I have seen - a few exceptions though - were more show than class. Bad teaching concept and filled with fans. Often these bad local teachers are simply copying what they saw their stars doing.

Best workshops I had were from invested regional-type teachers - usually community builder types btw.
A good workshop is worth the money the stars ask for but should be much less crowded than they do.
A bad workshop isn't worth leaving the house, no matter how famous the star is.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Also what is the point of being a "star" in the dance scene lol? Seems to be the goal for a lot of people

Young, hip and attractive people want to be seen. Even though I think dancing is a horrible avenue to do such a thing, many amateur dancers are validation-seeking and will try anything to become recognized. Then those same people become validation-seeking professionals. There can be no leadership from such a position.

When I speak with DJs, I'm always impressed at how passionate they are and how they generally seem more rooted in reality. I find them more tolerable than dancers, but again, I don't think anyone's getting rich off of DJ'ing in the Salsa world. However, I think they are better leaders and ambassadors than the dancing 'stars'.

The social dancer turned teacher turned Salsa celebrity is seen as the desirable route, but it's the polar opposite of building sustainable scenes.

I'd rather be a lifelong social dancer and keep this hobby of mine forever rather than be that guy who says Salsa is "something I used to do.. but now I'm not young nor popular and went broke so I quit..."

 

[MrR]

When I speak with DJs, I'm always impressed at how passionate they are and how they generally seem more rooted in reality. I find them more tolerable than dancers, but again, I don't think anyone's getting rich off of DJ'ing in the Salsa world.

That's something I see with the good DJs, too.
They are really into their music and most of the have a girlfriend around which does not compete with the fashion victims on the dance floor but is the same since many years. (To few female DJs to have statistics for them.)
Usually you can tell a lot about the quality of the DJ without ever having to listen to them. Good DJs scout the room an half hour before their set starts. Bad DJs scout the skirts instead and show up just in time (or too late) to hook up their laptop.

But also good DJs tend to have a well paying day job, not caring about the money.
Best was the DJ being chased by the organizer who wanted to pay him

 

[Chris_Yannick]

But also good DJs tend to have a well paying day job, not caring about the money.

The good DJs I know have diversified portfolios. They promote, organize, DJ, produce... but I have not met many who had day jobs competing for their time. I don't see how they have time for a regular day job. Dancers, on the other hand, I see more often with regular 9-5 desk jobs.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

They are really into their music and most of the have a girlfriend around which does not compete with the fashion victims on the dance floor but is the same since many years.

Haha.. Yes, although (male) DJs are also known to attract female attention so it can go both ways.

 

[MrR]

The good DJs I know have diversified portfolios. They promote, organize, DJ, produce... but I have not met many who had day jobs competing for their time. I don't see how they have time for a regular day job. Dancers, on the other hand, I see more often with regular 9-5 desk jobs.

Hm, I know one DJ like that. Studied musician and yeah, his DJ sets, his understanding of the acoustics and his musicality classes are another game. Latin dancing scene in Germany isn't that professional.
And some teacher-organizers-emergency DJs. But they usually are more of businessmen than artists, often lacking the skill in execution.

But I think a higher level of professionalism on professional size events would be very beneficial for the scene.
Around those professionally acting events the smaller, hobbyist or dance school organizers then can simply get used to a better execution.