No one
Because no one deserves to be ? 
Though there might be some good local ones which are doing good stuff in their respective community.
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Silence or lack of leadership in salsa dancing community?
- Thread starter Offbeat
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No one
Because no one deserves to be ? Though there might be some good local ones which are doing good stuff in their respective community.Correction. My comments were confined only to the dancing aspect.
In both those respects, Tango beats Salsa hands down. Of course, Tango doesn't have a trend of filming social dancing which has become part and parcel of salsa congress culture. I don't find filming of social dancing big in WCS or Lindy hop either. However, having the videos by themselves is not leadership unless it is also being used to convey something useful, thought-provoking, teach-worthy, or makes you stop in your track to reconsider something about your dance.
Indeed. I mentioned that. There were more of these when I started which I found immensely helpful. They were all local, as in the interaction was more local. Once people started migrating to first MySpace and then Facebook, it all disappeared.
Tango for example has a very active FB page for finding random someone to dance Tango at the airport while waiting
Local Tango bands exist in almost every place it is danced. People learn Spanish to dance Tango (it is not necessary). All I am saying the level of commitment of an average dancer, as well as instructor/leader, generally tends to be far higher in Tango. It all begins with the culture of leadership.
The potential is always there. Salsa by any standards drafts other dances by miles when it comes to participation and spread. That potential hasn't got translated into something concrete is what I am saying.
I think every country and city have their own leaders. Some like ET has global influence, some are just leaders for their town or group of students. Our forums have had many salsa leaders over years and still are. El Chino just released a vinyl with select songs from 2020. I bet it will have global impact, like many of his selections before.
What I think you're saying about leadership, sadly, I don't think is possible in Salsa.
Though I'm still curious about the Tango scene. A few more questions if you will:
1) Does Tango have a big street component? Do people dance it on the street or is it something you see mainly in studios?
2) How much of a family dance is Tango? What I mean is: do many people dance Tango within their own family often, especially in Argentina? And if yes, do they put as much emphasis on technique as studio trained dancers?
3) If you study outside of Argentina and become famous (does that ever happen?), do people in Argentina recognize/respect your fame and ability?
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I know a few ambitious folk who planned to move to New York and join Yamulee for example. Or go to Milan and study with Adolfo. This is one example of people willing to drop everything to pursue Salsa. When it comes to Salsa institutions of high level, I can't think of one that really stands out. Even if you get there, it still doesn't really mean that much to the rest of the Salsa community. For example, entire countries in Latin/South America don't give a crap if you are the principal dancer of Yamulee. For them, it's all about the 'sauce' and whether you embody the rhythm. There is a large subcontinent of people who believe Salsa is basically only meaningful when danced at home, to a local band, within a close knit circle who grew up with you.
IMO, this schism within Salsa (huge communities people not respecting or even acknowledging other styles within Salsa) is a BIG problem and is why no such institution exists that could unify Salsa and therefore, bring a degree of leadership to the community.
Maybe we should compare leadership in other street dances like Hip Hop. To me, it seems that Hip Hop has a huge amount of leadership despite being a street dance. But then I'm not in the scene so I don't know.
I once attended a Hip Hop freestyle streetdance battle in my town (which isn't very big) and it drew a HUGE crowd. I'm talking thousands. Of course it was sponsored by RedBull, but that to me signals that Hip Hop is recognized as a legitimate dance form. There is no way Salsa could draw that many people.
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If I may add what I saw in Argentina (But of course, there is always 1000 truths)
Generally it is mostly danced in studios. But there is many different types of them. From fancy to unheated and full of graffitis, from young hippie crowd to places where the average age goes down 20 years when one enters the room.
But whoever learns to dance Tango - wherever they do it - the emphasis on technique is like the first thing that you do when you learn it, as you can't even walk 2 steps correctly without it.
I haven't seen it in the street without it being organized. But there is regular dance events in different public parks. BA is absolutely full with all types of culture, so it doesn't really stand out. A Tai Chi community just beside the Tango crowd can be bigger some days.
Generally it is mostly danced in studios. But there is many different types of them. From fancy to unheated and full of graffitis, from young hippie crowd to places where the average age goes down 20 years when one enters the room.
I'd say not generally. Families who dance do, of course, but it is not something I generally saw.
But whoever learns to dance Tango - wherever they do it - the emphasis on technique is like the first thing that you do when you learn it, as you can't even walk 2 steps correctly without it.
Thanks for answering these questions!
That is interesting. I guess I'm not surprised. BA sounds like a very colorful place and so my image of it is like people everywhere dancing Tango and shops/cafes playing Tango music 24/7.
This is really interesting. I would say this is biggest difference when we talk about Salsa being a street dance that requires basically only music and whoever is around to dance with. If you can't stay on rhythm, you are still dancing Salsa as long as some magical unicorn comes along and gifts you with Sabor LOL.
So in Tango, if your technique is crap, no one will EVER tell you you are a good dancer, correct? Does that mean that technique comes before connection to music, in your opinion?
I saw it a bit less in shops and cafes, but there is a huge quantity of practicas and milongas all the time, so the options to dance are pretty much 24/7.
It's true that salsa usually is less pretentious in this aspect, I like that a lot about Salsa.
Depending on where you are (club, city, country, etc.) many people might not tell you if you're a good dancer because they only care about how good they are.
I've seen many places where Tango goes together with a myth about milongueros and their rules, and 1000 misinterpretations from it. -quite often leading to a really not nice ambiance.
However, as soon as you want to dance in close embrace, if your technique is not good, you risk both falling on your nose, perhaps falling ON the follow. Usually not very good cards for a second dance.
It's really hard to compare Tango with Salsa, it's two different worlds, and in general also age.
So the behaviour and focus is quite different. Also the feeling in your body after you've done it.
Another big issue is that how you dance with your follow influences how the couple behind you and the couple before you can dance, means all of the couples are dancing together. So there is less tolerance for beginners in socials, which sucks.
Regarding leadership etc it is true that there is a lot more systematic approaches to learning and teaching dance and music than in Salsa. There is also different styles, so it can be chaotic also in Tango. But I think there is a bit more of a clear line.
Why not. I have met people who had a lot of skill and potential but no temperament.
No Tango doesn't have a street component like Salsa does. But it is as much a social dance as Salsa is.
Studio is a bit of a misnomer to use since it gives different connotations to Tango. Tango dancing owes a huge credit to its evolution in the brothels and other undesirable sections of the society of the time. Tango is a moving dance and is usually danced in its own spaces indoors.
Tango has a performance component to it but it is very small and comes in two parts:
1. Stage Tango - This is more like ballet-like production
2. Maestro Performances - In the middle of social dancing the visiting guest teacher might be called to perform. It is usually considered an honor to be invited to perform. They are less performances and more demonstrations. Sometimes they are called demonstrations. Ninety-five percent of the time they are non-choreographed, non-rehearsed, and music is something that a DJ will choose based on the orchestra or genre preference of the performers.
Doing Stage Tango moves in social Tango is hugely frowned upon. You are considered lower in the Tango hierarchy if you indulge in stage tango moves as a show off and you might even start getting declines to your dance invitations.
Unless you come from a Tango dance family, you won't find it being danced in a family. If it is, it will sort of like an apprenticeship of the younger generation by the older.
No. Most people in Argentina don't know how to dance Tango. It is a sub-culture of its own. Think something more like santeria. But with its recognition as UNESCO heritage and the Argentinian govt trying capitalize on it as an Argentinian export, there is some commercialisation like competitions which didn't exist before. You have to also remember that the Argentinian junta drove Tango underground by restricting/banning it for three decades or more from the 1960s to1980s.
There is no such distinction. There is no such thing as studio trained dancer in AT. You are required to hone your skills in practicas and social dance floor. Both are your training grounds.
If you don't have the right technique you will soon find yourself shunned.
Not yet. It is beginning to happen in recent years. That is not to say you don't get respect for your dance skills. Fame is mostly reserved for the very best of them. Many of them happen to be social dancers who realized they could get invited to teach in western countries and it is a good source of income. Like Adolfo moved to Italy, many small and big Argentinean dancers relocated to different countries to make living as full-time instructors. There is another contingent of recognized Argentinians who will travel most of the year teaching in different parts of the world.
AT dancers recognize good instructors irrespective of whether they are Argentine or not. Outside of the dancing community, neither the music nor the dance is that big even in Argentina. Most of the dancing is done to the music that was created and recorded before 1955. There is no new Tango music for dancing.
There is neuvo Tango where people dance tango to non-tango but tango like music, etc. But that didn't catch on in popularity. Think of it as Tango's equivalent of BS or something. On the music side, there is Piazzolla who tried to the modern evolution of Tango but that has been confined to more listening music.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
I agree definitely with different styles not being respected. At least ONE teacher says we should be glad Toronto isnt just dancing and teaching cumbia style anymore (while h** students who were only 5 at the time make smug snickers). Mind you at the same time, the latin American dancers don't always respect the international style either.
On an aside was Me. Freeze or Ken Swift at that Red Bull event?
Had to cut off my last post as I was getting in to meeting. Another example of new tango music is by gotan tango. Again it is for listening. Not made for dancing unless you are going to dance neuvo.
I don't mean taking a break for 6 months to go to New York nor I meant changing work and moving to New York. What I meant was getting up one day and deciding life isn't worth it. Giving up your present lifestyle and security, resigning your job/work, and diving into Tango headfirst without bothering to think of consequences. To be fair some people who do that, do so later in life by which time they have already secured enough economic security. But not always. It is a whole different level of commitment to dive into the Tango lifestyle.
Strictly speaking, they don't exist in Tango either. Some made efforts to codify Tango for teaching purposes and faced a heavy pushback. There are a lot of very respected teachers in the Tango world. People often will learn from multiple teachers, even if they have a primary one.
Tango has something equivalent in its abrazo (embrace) and connection. The difference is it is universal. Most tango dancers anywhere in the world seek similar things rather than dissimilar in the dance.
Tango has its own schisms which might make salsa look like more child's play. It goes from different forms of embrace to techniques for walking. What it doesn't prevent though is the segregation of dancers or the community. The only difference is where neuvo and traditional dancers can't stand each other. Because it is very difficult to have both forms in the same space. Plus traditionalists have pretty much beaten back neuvo to an extent that it is more of a niche thing within Tango.
With so many local salser@s working at the tech companies, I have tried to impress upon the organizers to seek corporate sponsorship. It is not difficult. The companies wish to sponsor diversity and sponsorship of 50K or 100K is not a big thing for them. With the right relationship, you can lock a 5-year contract. However, the organizers come from a non-corporate background and don't understand how these things work. There is also city funding which is available for cultural activities. The organizers of salsa don't attempt to tap into that funding opportunity either. Again it shows a total lack of imagination on how to create a better experience. At least in big cities of the USA it won't be too difficult for congress organizers to get a corporate company to sponsor a big Latin band with a recognized name. There are salsa dancers who do this as part of their daily job.
BTW the person at the center of the latest Google controversy on AI ethics is a regular local salsera and a part of the salsa scene since her PhD or pre-PhD days.
I don't mean taking a break for 6 months to go to New York nor I meant changing work and moving to New York. What I meant was getting up one day and deciding life isn't worth it. Giving up your present lifestyle and security, resigning your job/work, and diving into Tango headfirst without bothering to think of consequences. To be fair some people who do that, do so later in life by which time they have already secured enough economic security. But not always. It is a whole different level of commitment to dive into the Tango lifestyle.
Strictly speaking, they don't exist in Tango either. Some made efforts to codify Tango for teaching purposes and faced a heavy pushback. There are a lot of very respected teachers in the Tango world. People often will learn from multiple teachers, even if they have a primary one.
Tango has something equivalent in its abrazo (embrace) and connection. The difference is it is universal. Most tango dancers anywhere in the world seek similar things rather than dissimilar in the dance.
Tango has its own schisms which might make salsa look like more child's play. It goes from different forms of embrace to techniques for walking. What it doesn't prevent though is the segregation of dancers or the community. The only difference is where neuvo and traditional dancers can't stand each other. Because it is very difficult to have both forms in the same space. Plus traditionalists have pretty much beaten back neuvo to an extent that it is more of a niche thing within Tango.
With so many local salser@s working at the tech companies, I have tried to impress upon the organizers to seek corporate sponsorship. It is not difficult. The companies wish to sponsor diversity and sponsorship of 50K or 100K is not a big thing for them. With the right relationship, you can lock a 5-year contract. However, the organizers come from a non-corporate background and don't understand how these things work. There is also city funding which is available for cultural activities. The organizers of salsa don't attempt to tap into that funding opportunity either. Again it shows a total lack of imagination on how to create a better experience. At least in big cities of the USA it won't be too difficult for congress organizers to get a corporate company to sponsor a big Latin band with a recognized name. There are salsa dancers who do this as part of their daily job.
BTW the person at the center of the latest Google controversy on AI ethics is a regular local salsera and a part of the salsa scene since her PhD or pre-PhD days.
I see a leader potential in you right here.
Myself, I freeze to think that I'll have to navigate these corporate politics. But if you can do it, it will be a great push for salsa culture!This is what festival organizers do.
I also believe the potential for leadership is present in the Salsa community, but it's coming from the wrong sources. Teachers, promoters, organizers, stage dancers, even social dancers are all over the place with their passion and motives.
Salsa DJs are the only group of people I look up to when it comes to providing guidance and knowledge in the Salsa community. They have the knowledge to educate their listeners but also inspire people to dance.
The leadership has to start with putting the music first before everything else. Then work its way through and infect people until they realize Salsa is nothing without its musical heritage.
I'm not saying it's the DJs responsibility to educate people in the community, but if there is going to be any kind of leadership, it has to start with the music.
I would also add Salsa bands and musicians to the list of potential leaders, but I feel DJs have a more established rapport with the dancers as they are frequently in contact with pretty much everyone in the community and can connect everyone together. DJs are the key.
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That is one thing that sets apart Tango from almost every other dance including salsa.
An average Tango dancer knows his music, orchestra, etc far more than average salsa or swing or any other dancers. It helps that Tango is confined to music between 1920s to 1950s. But it is more culture of the dance that almost every tango instructor will emphasize that you get to know your music. The tandas are organized by orchestras usually. The first song of the Tanda will pretty much tell you whether to dance or not because the remaining 3 songs in the Tanda will have similar rhythmic expressions (and probably the same orchestra). Knowing your orchestra and whose music you are dancing to is very important in Tango.
I am the black sheep of Tango
If you play a music I won't be able to tell which orchestra it belongs to. That is like getting a F grade as a Tango dancer
Now that I've experienced what it's like having real leadership in another community (fitness), I'm actually quite surprised that no such community exists in Salsa. Or maybe it does but I haven't seen it.
Maybe there is no reason for encouragement or leadership, when the majority of people believe Salsa to be some kind of recreational activity? You either love it or you don't. Latino people would laugh at the idea of having some kind of support group for Salsa.
But I've definitely come across many more discouraged people who are not satisfied with their Salsa than people who are satisfied with where they are. Yes, it's mostly a studio focused crowd, but there are enough of us that having a support framework in place makes sense.
Bottom line: if you have to take a class to learn Salsa, then leadership in the community SHOULD exist in some form.
As it stands, every school I've been a part of in the Salsa world have done a piss poor job at delivering coherent leadership. Many online programs also do a poor job because most teachers are in absenteeism and have no idea how to build a proper community.
As for myself, I continue to improve and I have a clear direction, but there was VERY LITTLE help in the community and leadership was completely non-existent. I needed to become my own source of inspiration.
Maybe there is no reason for encouragement or leadership, when the majority of people believe Salsa to be some kind of recreational activity? You either love it or you don't. Latino people would laugh at the idea of having some kind of support group for Salsa.
But I've definitely come across many more discouraged people who are not satisfied with their Salsa than people who are satisfied with where they are. Yes, it's mostly a studio focused crowd, but there are enough of us that having a support framework in place makes sense.
Bottom line: if you have to take a class to learn Salsa, then leadership in the community SHOULD exist in some form.
As it stands, every school I've been a part of in the Salsa world have done a piss poor job at delivering coherent leadership. Many online programs also do a poor job because most teachers are in absenteeism and have no idea how to build a proper community.
As for myself, I continue to improve and I have a clear direction, but there was VERY LITTLE help in the community and leadership was completely non-existent. I needed to become my own source of inspiration.
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1derpalm
Son Montuno
I had made
and he actually messaged me and asked what it was. I was surprised. Not sure if that's what you mean.
I had made a comment on Joel's fb ad about loving his program but missing one little thing.
and he actually messaged me and asked what it was. I was surprised. Not sure if that's what you mean.
Sorta. I mean, it's good that he actually takes the time to message you back. I like that he runs his online school like a real business. It's not just a side gig. Out of everyone else who has an online program, Joel's is miles ahead. It's a step in the right direction for sure. He invites the right people to give workshops. I would like to see more engagement in the community when it comes to giving real-world feedback. I don't know if Joel has this in place or not as part of his subscription program.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Nope.
I only see this with competition. I guess define "leadership." It's starting to feel like a niche vs a social venue. This would have to be an instructor who acts as the DJ as well.
I see it more with performance/competition culture as well. I was thinking there should be more leadership for social dancers. There are a ton of people out there who don’t perform/compete but who still want to imorove but don’t know how.