Silence or lack of leadership in salsa dancing community?

[MAMBO_CEC]

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With this in mind, how can we expect the average dancer to have a clear picture of the history of salsa as there simply is no such picture and no consensus over where it comes from. Look at all the discussions we've had on it.

Another excellent post on this subject, I agree with all of your points except the above. I do believe there is a clear picture of the history/roots of salsa. Frankly I am somewhat surprised that there is still doubt and controversy about its origins. Cuba, New York and Puerto Rico being ground zero, for the growth, implementation and development of this genre that we so love.

 

[Smejmoon]

Another excellent post on this subject, I agree with all of your points except the above. I do believe there is a clear picture of the history/roots of salsa. Frankly I am somewhat surprised that there is still doubt and controversy about its origins. Cuba, New York and Puerto Rico being ground zero, for the growth, implementation and development of this genre that we so love.

Once you start digging deeper, the clear picture dissappears.

 

[terence]

With this in mind, how can we expect the average dancer to have a clear picture of the history of salsa as there simply is no such picture and no consensus over where it comes from.

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The average dancer, I will admit, has little or no interest in origins ( and lots of techn. ) however , I think the roots of origin are pretty clearly defined.
Many will accept that Mambo transitioned musically and dance wise in the very late 60s to the larger expansion in the 70s.

If anyone knows the variations in old school Mambo, it becomes fairly obvious that the majority of foundation work ( and several advanced steps ) is identical in salsa . That conclusion will give a pathway to salsa's antecedents .

I'm in a somewhat unique position having lived thru the "changes " in the genre ( and fighting them in the past ! ) and in summary; those who are entrenched in the genre (teachers for one ex ) have somewhat of a duty to educate their students to some degree , on the roots of the genre ..and for that there are sources.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

Once you start digging deeper, the clear picture dissappears.

? How so? Dominican? Mexican? Colombian?

 

[Smejmoon]

? How so? Dominican? Mexican? Colombian?

Yes. See how you made it more complicated?

And then add all east coast, west coast swings, latin hustle and wherever all the body rolls and pops come from.. Hiphop?

 

[terence]

Yes. See how you made it more complicated?


and wherever all the body rolls come from.. Hiphop?

No.. old school mambo..

 

[vit]

Considering that dolphins do that while swimming, it could be somewhat older ...

 

[granrey]

The average dancer, I will admit, has little or no interest in origins ( and lots of techn. ) however , I think the roots of origin are pretty clearly defined.

I asked this in another tread (why teachers do what they do). it seems to me teachers cover this topic to look more knowlegable and give validation to students.

 

[ctcmichael]

There isn't much leadership in the salsa scene because (I think) we don't need one, nor do we want one. (A very loose "we" here since this is all my thoughts)

Salsa dancing is, at the end of the day, just a dance. Sure there there is a lot of history and culture behind it, but many people do it because it's fun (at least to begin with.) If you put any form of leadership into it, some people (not necessarily the leaders themselves) will start pointing fingers at people, telling others that they are dancing wrong because they don't dance like the leader figures.

Example: people make Johnny Vasquez the leader of on1 salsa. Does that mean anyone not dancing the glamorous LA style is dancing wrong? Should we hunt down everyone who prefers a smoother style?

The point I am trying to make is that we as a community will never be able to agree on who is/are the leader(s) of the dance. Salsa is such a broad term for so many different styles of dancing you cannot appoint a leader for every style. You can have a group of like-minded people discussing an aspect of the dance (e.g. the roots of salsa) and there will always be people who will see your conclusion as a steaming pile. I am part of the salsa dancing society at my university, and couple weeks back a Colombian student saw us dancing (we dance and teach on1), and he straight up told us that "that's not real salsa." You can never please everyone, and any attempt to establish leadership in the salsa community would only do more harm than good.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

. I am part of the salsa dancing society at my university, and couple weeks back a Colombian student saw us dancing (we dance and teach on1), and he straight up told us that "that's not real salsa." You can never please everyone, and any attempt to establish leadership in the salsa community would only do more harm than good.

Ahh yes therein lies the problem, everyone has their idea of what "real" salsa is. SF is rife with people with their take on what "real" salsa is. I find it kinda ironic that you're being castigated by a Colombian as to what real salsa is....had he been Cuban, or from New York or Puerto Rico...different story( I jest). In defence of the OP (offbeat). He did narrow it down to the linear On2/mambo/salsa community, on why doesn't someone speak out about the over reliance on turn patterns? To my mind I already have leaders, people like Eddie Torres, Franklin Diaz, Frankie Martinez, Tomas Guerrero, Jimmy Yoon. to name a few, people whom I think are still relevant with regard to dancing on2, whom as far as I know always stress FUNDAMENTALS, over injudicious use of turn patterns. Are lots of people listening to them?...the answer would seem to be no. There is a reason why Terry Taulliat is the most popular social dancer...turn patterns, it also helps that he's very musical and a phenomenal dancer.

 

[ctcmichael]

people like Eddie Torres, Franklin Diaz, Frankie Martinez, Tomas Guerrero, Jimmy Yoon.

I have to say that is quite a sophisticated list of on2 dancers that everyone should respect, and covers various styles - smooth like Frankie and Franklin, elegant/classical like ET, Tomas with his famous Santo Rico spin technique. I have never heard of Jimmy until now, and even though he does emphasise on fundamentals in the Youtube videos I can find, his use of syncopation of “and 1” does not seem natural at all to me. It could just be his style, but if I am to dance with his students I would probably think that they are not dancing right; similarly his students might have a difficult time leading someone that wasn’t taught by Jimmy because of that seemingly out of time step.

Every dancer would (and should) eventually develop their own style and flavour of dancing, and as long as the fundamental technique stands there is no right or wrong way to dance. That is (to me) what makes salsa so interesting. If anyone wants to centralise the technique/ styling down to every single finger then they should switch to ballroom salsa.

That of course isn’t what OP is talking about, but discussions of topics and ideas surrounding the salsa community does exist, most notably the Olu Olu coffee lounge in various congresses and festivals, featuring many big names and their opinions on different issues. You also have Facebook posts proposing a problem/question, but that tends to end in heated arguments, broken friendships and a more segregated community. Hell I even talk with my local teachers sometimes, ranging from techniques, length of congress workshops, performance vs social dancing, etc.

We don’t need any leadership on opinions; what we need is respect for others’ opinions, humility to listen to others, and enjoy dancing.

 

[vit]

I have never heard of Jimmy until now, and even though he does emphasise on fundamentals in the Youtube videos I can find, his use of syncopation of “and 1” does not seem natural at all to me.

Well ... it can be a kind of "natural" ... when one doesn't have steady timing of the body and steps or the timing of the leader and follower is somewhat different, you will see a lot of "& something steps" (something = 1, 2, 3, or 4) even if not taught. Quite frequent here in Europe (depending on the venue of course)

 

[ctcmichael]

steps or the timing of the leader and follower is somewhat different

Bar the possibility that one of them is dancing on Palladium timing I would call that dancing off timing.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Coming back to this topic. Where is the leadership? The only kind of leadership I have seen since the fall of social dancing has been from the DJs, who continue to provide us with some stable entertainment and music.

Salsa professionals have taken to online trying to provide classes to those who still want to learn.

Other outspoken influencers, promoters, people who were very popular are now suddenly quiet. Take away their main platform - festivals, social dancing and selfies - and suddenly there’s nothing to discuss, except for the diminishing hope of social dancing’s return.

I’ve probably learned more about the history, listened to more music and danced/studied dance technique at home more than in the last 10 years combined.

I also agree with the idea that leadership in Salsa isn’t needed to survive or thrive. Salsa is a personal journey. Whether one thrives depends on having a deeper connection.

 

[Offbeat]

Coming back to this topic. Where is the leadership? The only kind of leadership I have seen since the fall of social dancing has been from the DJs

I agree, within the narrow confines of DJing and bringing more varied music.

Salsa professionals have taken to online trying to provide classes to those who still want to learn.

There is difference between profession and leadership, or between doing your job and leadership, or between teaching and leadership.

Other outspoken influencers, promoters, people who were very popular are now suddenly quiet. Take away their main platform - festivals, social dancing and selfies - and suddenly there’s nothing to discuss, except for the diminishing hope of social dancing’s return.

The false prophets

I’ve probably learned more about the history, listened to more music and danced/studied dance technique at home more than in the last 10 years combined.

Regarding history, that is one thing participating in discussions on SF has been great at. So many times I have to go and do some research on a topic to have a meaningful discussions on history and evolution. That has seldom gets discussed in person. Because when out we are all busy dancing and little time to indulge in drawn out discussions.

I agree with the idea that leadership in Salsa isn’t needed to survive or thrive. Salsa is a personal journey. Whether one thrives depends on having a deeper connection.

Now you are talking like a heretic philosopher what you say can apply to anything from someone making pottery to an artist painting a picture to a scientist working in a lab.

 

[Latinjazz]

May be I am imagining but I think there is a distinct lack of leadership in salsa dancing community. Whether it is at international level or very local level. I am not advocating any structure but rather a lack of voice from those who could lend one. Of course I am narrowing it to dancing only. When I compare it to the other social dancing communities, which salsa dwarfs easily, it becomes even more glaring. Think for yourself, if there is any other blog or source that you visit for salsa dancing other than salsa forums. Including YouTube, which seems only for watching the videos of others dancing.

Yes, there were some websites which did some interviews with the leading lights. Many salsa dancers look upto various so called salsa stars. But beyond teaching patterns or shines, what do they do? The professionals in other fields put a lot more effort in being influencers and providing thought leadership whether via blogs or other form of interactions. Isn’t it surprising that we don’t know of any regular blog from the known international stars.

There was a time when the cities like SF, LA and NYC had local discussion sites where everyone (or most of the influential dancers) use to participate. After the ascent of FB, those sites went away or died of neglect.

A few known names have at sometime contributed to discussion on the SF. But that has been far and few inbetween. In terms of collective wealth of knowledge and wisdon, SF is an amazing source. There very few other activities related sites that can match the breadth and depth of knowledge on the SF (Audio-Visual, Cars and Photography, are a few that come to mind). Yet I can bet the farm that the most stars, organizers and instructors in the salsa dancing world are probably not even aware of its existence. It can't be that hard to miss. When you go and search about some aspect of salsa dancing on Google, first few results are usually SF pages.

I rarely seen any dialogue being fostered, whether at festivals or at local levels. Is it lack of intellectual curiosity or is the salsa dance world full of salsa prophets. This lack of leadership has side effects like a very poor instructors trading their crafts to mediocre level of dancing to lack of appreciation for live music.
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I just saw this thread thanks to @Chris_Yannick thread-defibrillator and I have to say I don't really understand what this is about. Is this about SF or about what? And leaderships how and for what?
Can you help me, @Offbeat ? I guess the subject is even more actual now?

 

[Offbeat]

I just saw this thread thanks to @Chris_Yannick thread-defibrillator and I have to say I don't really understand what this is about. Is this about SF or about what? And leaderships how and for what?
Can you help me, @Offbeat ? I guess the subject is even more actual now?

Let's compare with Tango dancing.

How much material do you find on Tango dancing itself on the internet compared to Salsa dancing. Useful, serious, thought out, thought provoking discourse whether in form of blogs, participatory discussions, lectures, interactive give and take in real world, about the details, nuances, history, etc of respective dancing.

On Tango I find a lot. For salsa, there is only Salsaforum which has a wealth of knowledge. I don't find the leading lights in salsa dancing community doing anything that can be termed as thought leadership. A few isolated instances being exception. The problem and the consequence is that it has led to mediocrity in salsa scene.

Or to pick a very random example show me a salsa dancing equivalent of Tango chaos. That is one excellent random source I picked. There are many others. In salsa dancing as far as I can see Salsaforum is the only one. There were some excellent local resources but they have largely disappeared.

What I am saying is that the so called leaders in salsa dancing community, whether at international level or local level than an average salsa dancer looks up to, have failed the community by lack of leadership. They are no more than instructors who want to show you few moves in exchange for money. That is a transaction. It is not leadership.

I am not talking strictly about dancing. Not the music. On the music side you will find plenty good sites for dissecting, dissemination, and discussing salsa music.

 

[RogueBlader]

OK, besides Eddie Torres, who would be considered the current leaders in the salsa community? Or, if the answer is "no-one", who should be a leader in the community?

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Let's compare with Tango dancing.

Ok let us do that.

How much material do you find on Tango dancing itself on the internet compared to Salsa dancing. Useful, serious, thought out, thought provoking discourse whether in form of blogs, participatory discussions, lectures, interactive give and take in real world, about the details, nuances, history, etc of respective dancing.

On Tango I find a lot.

I have not checked Tango so I'll take your word for it. I agree that well-thought out articles on Salsa dance, history and music is rather sparse. However, when it comes to videos, I find Salsa has quite a lot of resources, especially for music. You can find it everywhere. If people tell me they can't find Salsa music, then it's obvious to me they aren't looking in the right places. IMO, what is missing from Salsa is not a lack of resources, but a reliable source of distributing and archiving of said resources.

Or to pick a very random example show me a salsa dancing equivalent of Tango chaos. That is one excellent random source I picked. There are many others. In salsa dancing as far as I can see Salsaforum is the only one. There were some excellent local resources but they have largely disappeared.

I only perused this site. I've seen plenty of Salsa sites that had similar information but then disappeared. Now, the information (or misinformation) about Salsa is spread across many platforms, blogs and social media channels. Worse yet, the information is mostly bland and generic.. like 10 things how to impress your Salsa partner..lol..... Not saying these aren't useful tips, but you could apply it to ALL partner dances.

The ironic thing is that beginners eat this information up. I think there are more tutorials on Youtube with a focus on getting beginners to dance Salsa very quickly than in any other partner dance.

Very few videos are focused on what actually makes Salsa different than say Tango, or Kizomba, or Bachata or Zouk. It's just another dance that can be learned on the quick.

What I am saying is that the so called leaders in salsa dancing community, whether at international level or local level than an average salsa dancer looks up to, have failed the community by lack of leadership. They are no more than instructors who want to show you few moves in exchange for money. That is a transaction. It is not leadership.

I think there are quite a few potential leaders in the Salsa community, but they are tucked away in some corner of the world. In almost every local Salsa scene there are people with leadership qualities. Not to the degree of Eddie Torres, but still there are many people with valuable information to share. What I find missing are good ambassadors for Salsa. Just regular people who will spread the good word of Salsa and who aren't looking to gain financially. I think part of the reason is that Salsa is the most visible of the Latin dances, so people kinda assume it doesn't need ambassadors, but it does, especially when it is being grouped togeher with many other dances.
As for teaching, this is still a big problem. Somehow many dancers in Salsa are finding something is 'missing' when they dance Salsa, so they fill the void by going to another dance.

A question for you @Offbeat . Do you often see Tango dancers leaving the community to pursue other dances? I am curious to know the proportion of dancers who quit tango to defect to another dance?

 

[Offbeat]

A question for you @Offbeat . Do you often see Tango dancers leaving the community to pursue other dances? I am curious to know the proportion of dancers who quit tango to defect to another dance?

Almost none. Recently when I told Tango friends that the average life of an active salsa dancer (active as in dancing at least twice or thrice a week) is somewhere around three years, they were kind of shocked.

The second question was has anyone left everything in life to pursue Salsa. I said none that I know. Tango has ruined quite a few people who have given up everything to pursue it 24/7. More as non-professionals. Just to keep dancing it.