Silence or lack of leadership in salsa dancing community?

MrR said:
Tangueros are subject of a music battle that would make Yuca proud, with the "good" music being much older and nobody from the good old times available to interfere with their religion.
Click to expand...

Salsa's a bit different, in that 'good' new salsa is still being produced. (Not in the same quantities as back in the day it's true, but definitely with a sound that has progressed from back in the day.) Also in all but the most hardcore salsa events, it is common for other genres such as bachata to be included.

Personally as long as there's plenty of classic salsa (old and new, dura, romántica and hopefully mambo) then I can put up with other genres such as bachata, timba and merengue.
 
Last edited:
wol said:
From my experiences:
LindyHopers love their music and just worship live music :)
Click to expand...

Unfortunately my experience was the opposite. It was particularly painful for me as I've been listening and obsessing over vintage jazz, blues and R&B for far longer than I have with Latin music.
 
I'm beginning to think if it's just because dancing in general doesn't bring in a lot of money so it doesn't foster any kind of leadership. What would be the point of being a thought leader in something that isn't financially lucrative? Are even the top dancers in the world making millions??? Unless they are diversified and doing many other things besides owning a school, to promoting, choreographing, appearing on TV... it's hard to imagine dancing in any form attracting high level thought leaders.

To me, salsa doesn't need thought leadership in its current form unless it truly goes mainstream. As of right now... I'm happy just going to parties, enjoying the music, meeting friends and traveling to festivals. Rinse. Wash. Repeat ad nauseum.
 
MrR said:
As far as I see it, the Salsa scene is very conservative with a hierarchical top-down mentality in which it is only second to the ballroom scene.

Some examples:
- music
Although the thread was about dancing, at least 2 people already wrote about the watering down of the music (in some kind).
Actually the problem is vice versa - the notion that the dance has to follow a music style of the mid 20th century and adapting to modern music is discouraged. Somebody who actually is about dancing and developing the dance always is under attack by music fanatics, for whom the dance is only an appreciation of the music, while the dancers don't unite and simply say the necessary phrase: "SHUT UP!"
Thanks to these music fanatics people for example are afraid to go to a DJ and tell him, that he is playing old people's music all the time. (Resulting in a gap between oldschool-Salsa-venue and Latin-party, filled by crappy DJs.)
Click to expand...

Salsa has been around since circa 1970, and it clearly came from the NY mambo scene, and musically from son cubano. Genres which go back to at least the 1940s. So complaining that the music is not as contemporary as reguetón makes no sense. Sure if a DJ plays oldies all night then that's not a balanced night, but a lot of the best salsa is from the past. If you don't particularly like salsa music then you'll never be happy with a good salsa DJ.

MrR said:
There is a strong notion of "this is how it is done" and "not done like it should be done - WRONG!".
People trying their own approaches, trying to develop the dance without already being at the top (and thus having authority) are shouted down, shunned or at least seen as strange.
When I come to a new scene I am often greeted with animosity by the establishment - the alphas and their followers, the cool kids - for being and dancing different. Often times these are the only organized groups around, so the others, despite often times being the better developed dancers, have less of a vocal power.
Click to expand...

Often true. However if you want to 'develop' salsa dancing by disassociating it from both salsa music and anything that looks Latin American - personally I hope people do give you a hard time.

MrR said:
Everywhere people connect salsa strongly to Latino culture.
Click to expand...

Let's hope so.
 
Last edited:
MrR said:
- patriarchy
With this folklore often times comes a very patriarchal approach. Man says, woman does. So follows from the first second often times are excluded from the development process - no matter what politically correct people say. So the lead simply hands down what is given from above, without ever having a "discussion" about what he is doing there, as the follow has to follow. His actions never being questioned only few see a reason to reflect, what they are doing there (look at the discussion about bad leading that just took place). Have you ever wondered, that there are only very few women in this forum active? Probably because they were taught to/selected for being quiet very early on.
Click to expand...
There are more than very few women active in this forum. However you're right in that the majority of salsa 'stars' are male, and it is a patriarchal scene in some respects.

MrR said:
Well, these dogmatic top down structures suppress critical thinking. Critical thinking is the one of the most dangerous things for dogmatic and hierarchical structures.
For real discussions, developing a matter, it is necessary that the participants think about the matter deeply and critically.
Click to expand...
Very true. But how can deep critical thinking lead you to conclude that the best thing for salsa is to discard genuine salsa music and any connection to the culture that produced it?
 
Chris_Yannick said:
I'm beginning to think if it's just because dancing in general doesn't bring in a lot of money so it doesn't foster any kind of leadership. What would be the point of being a thought leader in something that isn't financially lucrative? Are even the top dancers in the world making millions??? Unless they are diversified and doing many other things besides owning a school, to promoting, choreographing, appearing on TV... it's hard to imagine dancing in any form attracting high level thought leaders.

To me, salsa doesn't need thought leadership in its current form unless it truly goes mainstream. As of right now... I'm happy just going to parties, enjoying the music, meeting friends and traveling to festivals. Rinse. Wash. Repeat ad nauseum.
Click to expand...


Commercial success has never been a reason for passion and development in any area. Often commercial success is a result of it and not the cause. If salsa goes mainstream, we will be tearing our hair and complaining a lot more. Going mainstream always has a cost associated with it.

What you enjoy is fine. The question is why the skills in the craft not improving. Personally to me they either seem stagnant or declining. Something that I don't seem to observe elsewhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vit
1. The most interesting thing about this thread is that so far, not a single follower/lady/girl/woman has commented. What does that say?

2. The people on SF are obsessed with codifying a social activity, while the general population is against over-intellectualizing it. Even here, there is a distinct aversion to deconstructing small things by some members. And it makes sense.

So that's why I don't tell people I'm on these forums. Most people don't like to hear 'you have to learn to count,' because they believe social dancing should be about feelings and rainbows and it should all be 'natural,' bla bla.

The comparison that comes to mind, for me, are dating and pickup sites. The reason those sites and forums are looked down upon by the general public is a strong aversion to codifying what should be something totally natural and spontaneous. And not to name names, but I know FOR SURE of several people on SF that frequent other pickup sites based on their writing, because there's ideological crossover between these two groups.
 
elanimal said:
2. The people on SF are obsessed with codifying a social activity, while the general population is against over-intellectualizing it. Even here, there is a distinct aversion to deconstructing small things by some members. And it makes sense.
Click to expand...

I am not sure what your definition of codifying is. If anything general trend on SF is against codifying anything in salsa.

elanimal said:
So that's why I don't tell people I'm on these forums.
Click to expand...

Hmm why are you here if you can't tell someone about it :) I often tell other salsa dancers if it comes up in conversation in some context.

elanimal said:
Most people don't like to hear 'you have to learn to count,' because they believe social dancing should be about feelings and rainbows and it should all be 'natural,' bla bla.
Click to expand...

What has counting got to do with SF. Most of the time people who are telling people to count are the instructors out there. As to merits of whether someone should count on or not have nothing to do with SF.

P.S. - I think you missed the point where I wrote that this was more directed towards salsa dancing community that has arose out of schooled dancing.
 
Offbeat said:
I am not sure what your definition of codifying is. If anything general trend on SF is against codifying anything in salsa.
Click to expand...

To me codifying is deciding what's right and wrong. For example 'lobster claws,' aka using your thumbs while leading turns specifically. There was shock and surprise in some other thread that not everyone knows about this.

The general consensus here and other places, which I believe is true and is how I teach my lowly beginners, is that abolishing lobster claws should be part of the salsa code.

When we frequently lament that salsa dance teachers suck and there are so many 'frauds' out there, what we're inherently saying is they are against our code.
Offbeat said:
Hmm why are you here if you can't tell someone about it :) I often tell other salsa dancers if it comes up in conversation in some context.
Click to expand...
I have told some people about it and they judge me as a nerd who's a bit too into salsa. Which is alright, that's what I am. But I'm not going out of my way to tell people about the wonderful benefits of discussing the semantics of 'codifying' and lobster claws because that largely falls on deaf ears, jejeje.
 
Offbeat said:
Commercial success has never been a reason for passion and development in any area. Often commercial success is a result of it and not the cause. If salsa goes mainstream, we will be tearing our hair and complaining a lot more. Going mainstream always has a cost associated with it.

What you enjoy is fine. The question is why the skills in the craft not improving. Personally to me they either seem stagnant or declining. Something that I don't seem to observe elsewhere.
Click to expand...

But financial gain does play a role in whether someone wishes to improve their craft to the highest skill attainable.

You are right. I don't think commercial success is a reason for very passionate people to improve their craft, but it's a reason for a lot of people.

If someone is bad at salsa, they will just quit. Salsa has a very high drop out rate among beginners with good reason - it's friggin' hard!

When I was into photography, I went hard in the beginning because there was always something more to look forward to and more gear to buy. I probably spent more on photography in 3 months than I have dancing 10 years in salsa. There is a huge incentive to spend in photography, and because of that, there are tons of resources online for every thing photography related.

Can people go hard in salsa? Sure, but you reach your ceiling much faster - as in you know much sooner whether you will continue after a few weeks/months. It's also incredibly easy to get discouraged because of the social element (rejections and the like..). I often hear people say "well, I suck at salsa, but that's why I have a day job.. I feel sorry for people who do this for a living." Salsa is just not an activity that gives people incentive to improve as much as other hobbies.

All in all, I would say the reason you don't see people improving across the board is because of 3 main factors:

1) many people only look at salsa as a social activity where social status is more important than actual ability
2) lack of competitiveness as compared to other hobbies, sports
3) no financial gain to be had

It's not a big mystery why people don't talk about salsa or participate in discussions. It's boring for them.
 
Last edited:
Chris_Yannick said:
lack of competitiveness as compared to other hobbies, sports
Click to expand...
Lack of cooperation. Not competition... In many cases, ego starts to grow with dancing skills. Not so many dancers who remain a person who you want to turn in if you need advice. It is very important for beginners. People just start to blame in mediocracy dancers who do not have enough information. And sometimes it feels much safer just be silent than asking something or saying something "wrong" that is obvious for "salsa stars."
 
Offbeat said:
Commercial success has never been a reason for passion and development in any area.
Click to expand...

The question coming to my mind now that you mentioned it is do we actually want passionate "leaders" in salsa. There was one from Cuba, very passionate about casino, to the extend that he misbehaved according to rules accepted here, trying to save his pure casino version that seems to be dying in Cuba as well, but I think not much of us here actually liked his way of dancing

I understand, all of us would like someone being passionate the same way as we are, problem is just that those passions are quite different from each other ...
 
Marisha said:
Lack of cooperation. Not competition... In many cases, ego starts to grow with dancing skills. Not so many dancers who remain a person who you want to turn in if you need advice. It is very important for beginners. People just start to blame in mediocracy dancers who do not have enough information. And sometimes it feels much safer just be silent than asking something or saying something "wrong" that is obvious for "salsa stars."
Click to expand...

It's funny because I don't know if I would even want to seek advice of a "salsa star". I'm a social dancer. I know I will not do this for a living. I don't care to enter competitions or to perform. There is no incentive for me to shoot for the stars. I would rather just encourage beginners to continue dancing, which in itself is hard. When someone has the idea that they are no good, it's very difficult to change their opinion about their own dancing.

I agree with you that someone with a huge dance ego is hurtful for the scene, but it's very difficult to avoid these people in dance. There's no way of telling them that they are doing more harm than good. At least when you are bad at a sport or a game, you will know because you will lose. You can't lose in salsa. Nobody in their right mind would seek advice from an athlete with a losing record. There are statistics to help us differentiate those who knows what they're talking about. How do you know who is knowledgeable in dance? Basically anyone with more experience than you can become a teacher.
 
Last edited:
Chris_Yannick said:
How do you know who is knowledgeable in dance?
Click to expand...

I would ask even more general question: how do I know who is knowledgeable about what in dancing and how do I know that I want that and why would I want that and not some other knowledge ... in short, I'm totally confused :p
 
Chris_Yannick said:
It's funny because I don't know if I would even want to seek advice of a "salsa star." I'm a social dancer. I know I will not do this for a living. I don't care to enter competitions or to perform.
Click to expand...
I was not clear enough. "Salsa stars" ..I mean someone who thinks he or she knows everything about salsa. Arrogant dancers with a huge ego. And I am not talking about seeking advice from "salsa stars."
 
vit said:
I would ask even more general question: how do I know who is knowledgeable about what in dancing and how do I know that I want that and why would I want that and not some other knowledge ... in short, I'm totally confused :p
Click to expand...
I like to ask technical questions and see them struggle.

I also noticed that those who DO have the answers tend to have "Intellectual Curiousity" (like us), and more often then not - they get excited to hear such questions, and to give answers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top