Should a follow stay conscious/unconscious (lol not literally) :) :) :)

S

smiling28

Moderator
Hi team,

Would LOVE your help on this one  I may be completely wrong so great to get others opinions.

I got some great feedback from a dancer whom I have immense respect for who said basically:

The follow have to surrender to the leader
the leader haws t lead and keep connection very clearly
the follower has to folllow but has to always be in control of herself and her body but not have to think aobut the moves at all
that is the basis of zouk
i surrender to you but in taht dance
you did not let me do my part
you kept bringing me back to the"conxious" state
very hard for me

Now admittedly that was about Zouk but I have had the same thing said about my salsa/tango/dancing in general lol.

Why do I do that, when I dance, I don’t just want a ragdoll of a personality. Yes they say in zouk the girl is a ragdoll in the body but not in the mind. Same as salsa. It for me is very improvisational. It is about personality/character.

Eg. I had such an incredible dance with a couple of beautiful dances at the weekend. Probably the best ever. And I got compliments from these type of girls that I give them space/security/openings in the music to play/enjoy.

I guess a lot of it came from girls ‘switching off’ to just do turn patterns. No point for me. Its why I love merengue whereas most don’t. Its not the moves/switching off. It’s the play/improvisation between the 2 people.

Whereas, above my feedback is that I brought the girl back to the conscious state and this is bad. (also makes this point about salsa)

So what do you follows prefer? As a lead do I accept my ‘style’ or try to improve this area. If so, how?
 
You expect a serious answer with a question like that! :) :P j/k

I've tried following a couple times and the buzz came from being able to surrender. I think where the consciousness thing comes in, and where the feeling of surrender is lost is when there is ambiguity. So as a guess I'd say as long as your 'style' doesn't create any ambiguity in your lead then your partner should be able to stay in the zone.
 
I think of a bit as soft focus w/eyes or having focused eyes -- peripheral or direct vision. I think a lot of following is about having that soft focus.. I know where I am, where I'm going, the choices I'm making; but I'm not having to avoid other dancers' elbows consciously, I may be dancing alone/freestyle, but I'm not thinking "oh, now I'm going to Suzy-Q." And interestingly, it is that mix of structure & freedom that makes me feel I can be in that space to be more free & expressive.

Think about it as with being a passenger in a car: If the driver is a good driver & you're confident in his/her abilities, you can look out the window, enjoy the scenery, have a deep conversation, etc. If the driver makes you nervous b/c of his/her habits, you're going to talk w/him/her, etc., but you'll always be ready to shout a warning or something.

Sometimes it's as simple as floorcraft mastery or providing clear direction, or other times it can be stuff like being self-conscious himself (as in, very aware consciously of what he's doing & not letting go himself), or the quality of how a lead watches me & notices what I'm doing that will determine whether I get in the zone or not.
 
My experience with following is that it's like being the batter in baseball (or maybe cricket). You're waiting for the pitcher to initiate action, and you want to be relaxed and ready to respond.
 
In my opinion, some of the best followers know how to be an active participant in directing how the dance develops AND know when and with whom they can do this and to how much degree.

Yes the leader is in charge for greater than 50% for the dance, but communication goes both ways.

This of course cannot be done "unconsciously."
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. Still pretty confused on this topic though.

I love what Roo posted about 'the zone'.

However, I dont want some hindu cow to dance with all the time ha ha... OMG that sounds terrible but you know the whole 'as calm as a hindu cow' thing. Anyway, maybe I have a dance like that..........IN TANGO lol). But in Salsa, the music is saying come alive. Express. Be, feel. BE ALIVE!!!

Turn on not off. I figure you are not saying that the girl turns off (hindu cow zen state lol).

Using your driving example which I love by the way and use myself, The guy does not tell the girl to look out the window or look at the scenery. He does not start counting backwards saying deep conversation in 3.........2...........1

I.e The girl is still very much active. Now in my leading i currently leave gaps probably for the girl to do things. Whatever SHE wants.

However, I guess the point of the thread is that should I also lead those moments as free time more clearly OR should I not do that. How can I lead 'free time' for the girl better so that the girl is not taken out of her zone and it is not disrupting the flow of the girl :) :) :)




*thank you for helping me rephrase the question
 
Well Smiling dear,

A follower's power come from being able to let go.
I do not mean to be a Hindu cow, on the contraru, letting go is being able to control what you do without controling your partner.
If I am given the time, space, and vibe for being a follower, I will use my autopilot to do the patterns, while my manual self will take over the sabor.

To sum it up, it is a combination of being HERE and THERE
 
Re. the follower's consciousness,

When I follow, my focus is on two things: the lead, and the music.

When I follow, my consciousness is focused on the lead and how it feels; I respond to what I *feel*. I don't *think* in terms of moves, patterns. But at the same time, the way I move is directed largely by the music (or combination of the lead and the music). The mood of the music decides what sort of dance the leader will get from me. I also try to hit breaks as they happen while I follow, using styling, varying the timing of turns, varying steps, etc. Sometimes the leader notices what I'm doing and like it; other times they just think I'm following badly :lol:.

Now, one thing I noticed when I danced with you was that you seemed to like to let the follower go quite frequently but only for short bursts. Problem with that was a lack of clear structure. There were no musical cues for the solo times. Those freedom times felt as if you were letting me go after a move went wrong and you were only waiting for bit before regrouping. Now, without any musical cue, it takes a few beats for the follower to realise it's solo time and start doing shines. You were picking me up when I was just getting started. That way, those gaps felt more like interruptions of the flow than space for self expression.

I think I mentioned this to you before, but it would help if you design those free times with clearer intent and commitment. Be aware of the musical cues (there are clear moments where the music says "go for it"), and lead the start of the solo time clearly so that it doesn't feel like an accidental break-off. Give the music justice - don't pick her up too quickly (unless she's clearly lost/uncomfortable). To me, a dance with five 4-bar solo times that don't go with the music is much harder to handle than a dance with one or two long (16- to 32-bar) solo(s) to the descarga section of the music.

Also, girls who are expressive can use a whole range of styling (not just arms but the whole body) to do so while following the lead at the same time. They can also hijack if they feel it's right. You don't need to leave "gaps" all over the dance for their self expression.
 
lolita said:
Well Smiling dear,

A follower's power come from being able to let go.
I do not mean to be a Hindu cow, on the contraru, letting go is being able to control what you do without controling your partner.
If I am given the time, space, and vibe for being a follower, I will use my autopilot to do the patterns, while my manual self will take over the sabor.

To sum it up, it is a combination of being HERE and THERE
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with Lolita

LOL - just kidding.

I was actually going to post something on this but have not gotten around to it.

I haven't been dancing much in my home scene for a lot of different reasons - but it seems that I have danced with the regulars way too many times and we both go on auto pilot. We are just going through the motions -they know exactly what I am going to do next :( I haven't had time to learn new patterns - or ways to change my current ones. Just been too busy with work.

But, over the last four months or so I have had to opportunity to travel around dance in many different places - that was cool. I generally try and dance with the more advanced dancers in the scene. Many of them simply go on auto pilot before we begin :( just totally space out. They follow on auto pilot and to me - it feels like I am just practicing my patterns - no real connection. Honestly - chicago was probably the worst - I danced with more women on auto pilot there than any where else - no matter what I did they just spaced out. They seemed bored - they could follow my patterns with their eyes closed and not even think about it - because they have followed those same patterns hundreds of times. I tried to get them to snap out of auto pilot - but I couldn't do it.

However, other places - say like Vancouver, BC - the ladies were very present and as long as I stayed present with them and made it fun they would stay with me and avoid auto pilot :)

To avoid auto pilot - I generally try and lead ordinary patterns in a slightly different way - or make some variation that is fairly unique - or I will do something silly - or make very big motions (exagerate something or another) - or I will bring them in very close - where our cheeks are almost touching and then give them a big smile (one pattern is a X body lead with my right hand holding their right hand and I lead a x body lead but I over rotate them so that we are both facing the opposite direction that the lady was originally facing and I have my arm over their shoulder bringing them in close).

But sometimes nothing works. Its actually very frustrating for me - I dance to express myself and make a connection and to have fun - its very difficult when you are the only one present in this partner dance.
 
lolita said:
Well Smiling dear,

A follower's power come from being able to let go.
I do not mean to be a Hindu cow, on the contraru, letting go is being able to control what you do without controling your partner.
If I am given the time, space, and vibe for being a follower, I will use my autopilot to do the patterns, while my manual self will take over the sabor.

To sum it up, it is a combination of being HERE and THERE
Click to expand...


oh being here AND there.

See I only had the 'here' and clearly lacking the 'there' lol

Actually your post above is golden. This concept is hard for me to grasp. Its like trying to understand a woman................................

So if I have understood that above as an analogy. A follower wants the lead to take them on a clear good trip which the lead is responsible for (driving the car) and allow the follow to feel so secure/taken care of/appreciated/special that she can finally relax and unwind knowing she is being taken care of as she deserves???
 
MacMoto said:
Re. the follower's consciousness,

When I follow, my focus is on two things: the lead, and the music.

When I follow, my consciousness is focused on the lead and how it feels; I respond to what I *feel*. I don't *think* in terms of moves, patterns. But at the same time, the way I move is directed largely by the music (or combination of the lead and the music). The mood of the music decides what sort of dance the leader will get from me. I also try to hit breaks as they happen while I follow, using styling, varying the timing of turns, varying steps, etc. Sometimes the leader notices what I'm doing and like it; other times they just think I'm following badly :lol:.

Now, one thing I noticed when I danced with you was that you seemed to like to let the follower go quite frequently but only for short bursts. Problem with that was a lack of clear structure. There were no musical cues for the solo times. Those freedom times felt as if you were letting me go after a move went wrong and you were only waiting for bit before regrouping. Now, without any musical cue, it takes a few beats for the follower to realise it's solo time and start doing shines. You were picking me up when I was just getting started. That way, those gaps felt more like interruptions of the flow than space for self expression.

I think I mentioned this to you before, but it would help if you design those free times with clearer intent and commitment. Be aware of the musical cues (there are clear moments where the music says "go for it"), and lead the start of the solo time clearly so that it doesn't feel like an accidental break-off. Give the music justice - don't pick her up too quickly (unless she's clearly lost/uncomfortable). To me, a dance with five 4-bar solo times that don't go with the music is much harder to handle than a dance with one or two long (16- to 32-bar) solo(s) to the descarga section of the music.

Also, girls who are expressive can use a whole range of styling (not just arms but the whole body) to do so while following the lead at the same time. They can also hijack if they feel it's right. You don't need to leave "gaps" all over the dance for their self expression.
Click to expand...


Brilliant post. Many thanks. Perfect example of different styles for different people.

And continuing that driving analogy above, short bursts would seem to be me letting go of the steering wheel randomly for short periods.

Obviously unsettling the girl. Whereas the girls it has worked well for have grasped that opportunity and only needed that moment to have their direction/impact on the dance :)

THanks, something to think about. I think that I am recognising small pieces of the music where I want the girl to express herself but need to find methods to keep the flow of the dance and hang on. (eg. instead of letting go for that short burst, maybe a cross body lead with styling )

Many thanks!
 
smiling28 said:
oh being here AND there.

See I only had the 'here' and clearly lacking the 'there' lol

Actually your post above is golden. This concept is hard for me to grasp. Its like trying to understand a woman................................

So if I have understood that above as an analogy. A follower wants the lead to take them on a clear good trip which the lead is responsible for (driving the car) and allow the follow to feel so secure/taken care of/appreciated/special that she can finally relax and unwind knowing she is being taken care of as she deserves???
Click to expand...

Too much security will get her on an autopilot mode thought. I would say that it is best if you keep her in check every now and then. A break, A stop, A tease....Do it so she would stay alert.

As you know, us girls(or at least me) hate routine...Think of it as sex (am I allowed to say that?) The more surprises, The alerter the girl would be.
 
lolita said:
Too much security will get her on an autopilot mode thought. I would say that it is best if you keep her in check every now and then. A break, A stop, A tease....Do it so she would stay alert.

As you know, us girls(or at least me) hate routine...Think of it as sex (am I allowed to say that?) The more surprises, The alerter the girl would be.
Click to expand...

This point is good - as was your first reply. The only thing I might add is that it does not necessary be a passive thing for follower. A really experienced followers could prod the leader to go off his autopilot mode (or perhaps a better phrasing is to dare him to raise his game). Again, knowing when and to how much degree to do this with different leads (certainly not for every lead nor for that matter for every follower) is tricky - akin to learning to become a virtuoso courtesan perhaps.

The issue about music and structure brought up by MacMoto is important also. I think it's nice to feel a follower trying to hijack to a shine, etc exactly at the same time I'm leading her to do exactly the same. Maybe one can use a mutual or simultaneous O-word for it (or just a nice feeling from feeling that both of you are on the same page).
 
hyh said:
The only thing I might add is that it does not necessary be a passive thing for follower. A really experienced followers could prod the leader to go off his autopilot mode (or perhaps a better phrasing is to dare him to raise his game).
Click to expand...
How would a follower do this without insulting the leader?
 
John S2 said:
How would a follower do this without insulting the leader?
Click to expand...

One thing I've seen is for a follower to 'syncopate' a single turn; ie, delay the start of the turn, then finish it in an instant. It shows that she really could have done 2 or 3 in the same amount of time, and that she's an expert at spinning.
 
hyh said:
This point is good - as was your first reply. The only thing I might add is that it does not necessary be a passive thing for follower. A really experienced followers could prod the leader to go off his autopilot mode (or perhaps a better phrasing is to dare him to raise his game). Again, knowing when and to how much degree to do this with different leads (certainly not for every lead nor for that matter for every follower) is tricky - akin to learning to become a virtuoso courtesan perhaps.
Click to expand...

Good point, I usually get the **Did you just spank me** look...And no, I do not spank on the dance floor, well not always!
 
John S2 said:
How would a follower do this without insulting the leader?
Click to expand...

Treading very carefully and nicely while possibly stroking leader's ego and being highly selective on which leader to try this on. I believe I already said it's not easy.
 
John S2 said:
How would a follower do this without insulting the leader?
Click to expand...

For me this is usually in the eyes. I usually start a dance apart to give her a chance to play, and if she plays, then we play more during the dance. If she freezes, then it's straight into partnerwork and I keep her fed with moves and patterns.

Girls can wake up the leader by small abuses of timing like snowdancer says, or by grabbing the non-led time to do something that reflects her personality. One partner I used to like dancing with would dig me in the ribs with her left hand as I turned away from her on a CBL. That was certainly a wake-up!
 
sweavo said:
One partner I used to like dancing with would dig me in the ribs with her left hand as I turned away from her on a CBL. That was certainly a wake-up!
Click to expand...
You are giving me ideas LOL - but I'm not sure how the guys here would take it! :lol:


smiling28 said:
THanks, something to think about. I think that I am recognising small pieces of the music where I want the girl to express herself
Click to expand...
I think the problem with this (*you* giving *her* bits of "space for expressing herself") is,
- if the girl is not an expressive type, it just unsettles her as you say.
- if the girl is an expressive type, she would rather express herself when *she* feels like it than when *you* feel like it. And she's probably quite capable of borrowing/stealing/hijacking moments to achieve that.

One thing you could try:
You can use those bits of music more to express *yourself* by adding little styling and fun/flirtatious tricks (by that I mean things the followers don't expect, e.g., false leads and checks, sudden stops, leading by unorthodox methods) of your own instead of just leaving gaps and trying to get the follower to do things. If she's an expressive type, she'll think it's fun and respond; if not, it will at least wake her up from autopilot.
 
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