Shades of Salsa Music

[salsamarty]

So, for most follows, those who really doesn't know or care much about the music, good timing is not really that important. Lead is what they care about.

How can you not care about the music? What's the point of being out on the dance floor?

 

[Melvin]

How can you not care about the music? What's the point of being out on the dance floor?

Most people have very little interest in what's playing, they dance the same way regardless of the ambience of the music. They express themselves rather than interpret the music. To me it looks like they're having fun.

 

[salsamarty]

Most people have very little interest in what's playing, they dance the same way regardless of the ambience of the music. They express themselves rather than interpret the music. To me it looks like they're having fun.

I don't doubt that they are having fun. I think the general draw of people to music and dancing is that the music inspires people to express themselves in way that is connected to the music. I think what you (and I) are generally seeing is people who don't (yet) have the skills to make that connection with this particular music. I will give many of them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are trying. Others are not in it for the long haul and are just having a fun night out with their friends. Then there are those who will never have the capability of "getting it". I am a slow learner and it took me a long time to find the music. In my early days I would have looked like "them" but I was trying none-the-less.

 

[Melvin]

I don't doubt that they are having fun. I think the general draw of people to music and dancing is that the music inspires people to express themselves in way that is connected to the music. I think what you (and I) are generally seeing is people who don't (yet) have the skills to make that connection with this particular music. I will give many of them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are trying. Others are not in it for the long haul and are just having a fun night out with their friends. Then there are those who will never have the capability of "getting it". I am a slow learner and it took me a long time to find the music. In my early days I would have looked like "them" but I was trying none-the-less.

I often talked, or tried to talk, about music with experienced salser@s with more skill than I'll ever have. Most of them are not interested at all in even trying to find the basic emotions driving the music, what the song is actually about.

They assume without bothering about understanding the song, and "like" it in a superficial way. They have nothing of substance to say about it. They seem to never ask themselves about the story, what situation the singer is in, what the "drama" is. They are interested in themselves only.

They dance away, satisfied with just having fun and showing off their skills. And, I also see less capable dancers, who clearly dance at least a little bit differently to each song.

People with a "big" and outgoing personality often let their larger than life persona take over, just as those with excellent technical skills let these skills dominate their dancing at the expense of making a personal unique interpretation of each song or passage. It can be technical, but impersonal; or personal, but not musical.

I see three components in truly great dancing, which is very rare. Technical skills obviously, (including "hitting the breaks" etc); musicality, the sensitivity to identify what a song is about; and a personality capable of making a unique, interesting and recognizable personal interpretation. You want to see a skilled presentation of a fascinating subject, and it should be in a unique and personal way. Balance between these three components.

Songs are different from each other, and every song also progress and change. Ideally the dancing should reflect this. Not just, "I'm happy, I dance happily" or "I'm cool, I dance smooth", "I'm playful, I dance playfully". Great songs are often about serious problems. "Darker" emotions are often missing in the way most people dance, and I don't think skill is a big part of this.

Wildly off topic this, oh well..

 

[Smejmoon]

Great songs are often about serious problems. "Darker" emotions are often missing in the way most people dance, and I don't think skill is a big part of this.

Do you have an example of "darker" salsa dancing? I know darker dances, but never seen anyone dance salsa like that. Desparate, confused, bored, tired 0 yes. Serious problems - no.

 

[Melvin]

"Darker" is exaggerated, sure. This is not my language and I'm not too eager to get entangled in trying to explain myself or pick out examples for others to make fun of.

 

[la_gringa]

Excellent posts, Melvin.

 

[SnowDancer]

They assume without bothering about understanding the song, and "like" it in a superficial way. They have nothing of substance to say about it. They seem to never ask themselves about the story, what situation the singer is in, what the "drama" is. They are interested in themselves only.

From my limited Spanish, aren't a lot of the songs about "dancing guaguanco with flavour"?

Yes, I know there are darker ones like "El Gran Varon". I don't expect dancers to reflect the lyrics in their style, since most of us don't know enough Spanish. What bothers me is when a song with a romantic melody is being played and some leads are frantically throwing their partners through move after move without any sense of feeling.

 

[Smejmoon]

"Darker" is exaggerated, sure. This is not my language and I'm not too eager to get entangled in trying to explain myself or pick out examples for others to make fun of.

Not sure if I made a right impression, but I'm seriously looking for the examples. There are dark emotions in tango, many bachatas are quite deparate and sad, many zouks have a gothic feel. If you want to see a really dark dance google butoh.

I have not seen such in salsa and the music rarely leads there. Maybe because I lack education. I know it's possible, I could do that, but I don't go to party if I want to entertain blues.

Joe Arroyo's "La rebelion" is a very dark, very beautiful salsa, how would you dance to it? In the pair.

P.S. Dear moderators, we went tangential. Maybe you could pull this out in separate 'dark salsa' thread?

 

[Melvin]

I don't feel inclined to look for examples really, we all see and hear things differently, I suspect it would lead to a tiring meta debate I don't want to get involved in.

As to what is serious and what is "fun", as I see it, most or all stories that interest people have a serious side, they are about problems. Even silly sitcoms on TV that people think about as only concerning harmless fun are constructed around a basic problem, for example family or social relations.

Good storytellers take a serious subject we all know about and tell about in an entertaining way. That's why no one would buy a newspaper with only "happy news". It is problems that attract our attention, not "happiness". We even want them exaggerated, and if we don't have enough real problems we make up imaginary ones.

I usually see salsa songs as typically some guy from the "barrio" telling his friends about his difficulties, with work, relationships, lack of freedom or life in general. The coro, the community listens, understands and offers sympathy. It's a very collective music, call and response.

As to the music not leading away from happiness. "El Varon" is almost too obvious, but why not just quickly pick out "El Negro Bembon", "Lorraras", "Anacaona" as they came to mind. I don't see those as happy songs, and I do think you can hear it without understanding the lyrics.

And romantic songs, romance is almost by definition a state of wanting something hard to come by. Not about having something, but rather about NOT having it. "Machismo" are also recognizable in the music, they do contain strong elements of arrogance, dominance, aggression and areas bordering the misogynic. I believe these deeper layers is what attracts, whether we're aware of it or not.

 

[DJ Ara]

Most people have very little interest in what's playing, they dance the same way regardless of the ambience of the music. They express themselves rather than interpret the music. To me it looks like they're having fun.

I agree with this. For most people it is about having fun; meeting people, and generally improving their social lives, and they are unwilling to let the music, nor its themes and rich arrangements, get in their way.

Unfortunately, most of the "salsa" dance teachers are no different from the average dancer. They just perform their mindless techniques with more skill, and perhaps with more charisma and confidence. I say "mindless" techniques, because their often irrelevance to the music these dancers are supposed to be dancing to.

There is nothing wrong with "having fun" in salsa, and god knows, I have had and I continue having my fair share, but the least the dance teachers (and DJs, by the way) can do is to go deeper in the musical genre they claim expertise in, and pass along their "findings" to their students and followers.

This is called professionalism, that is, knowing something in a multidimensional level, before you begin teaching it to the masses (for money). If more people who claim the title of "salsa teacher" did this, then perhaps less international dancefloors would resemble scenes from the Muppet Show, and more would contain real Salsero essence and hence look like REAL salsa clubs.

Well, we can all hope....

 

[salsa4fun]

I once wondered how the follower would react if I started crying in the middle of a very sad song... Like some of the ones mentioned above, or stuff like "Todo Se derrumbo" and "El Preso"...

Did this ever happened to you ?

 

[El Conguero]

There is nothing wrong with "having fun" in salsa, and god knows, I have had and I continue having my fair share, but the least the dance teachers (and DJs, by the way) can do is to go deeper in the musical genre they claim expertise in, and pass along their "findings" to their students and followers.

This is called professionalism, that is, knowing something in a multidimensional level, before you begin teaching it to the masses (for money). If more people who claim the title of "salsa teacher" did this, then perhaps less international dancefloors would resemble scenes from the Muppet Show, and more would contain real Salsero essence and hence look like REAL salsa clubs.

I agree 100% about having fun. And no matter what other styles / sub-genres are involved, salsa music makes ppl wanna get up and dance! I remember a little recording I did (just playing around really) that my mom & sister overhread and they started smiling and dancing. They know nothing whatsoever about the steps (neither do I though lol) and they just danced and had a good time. I personally thought the recording was awful, because I hadn't mixed or even added the bassline yet, but they got a kick out of listening to my song and dancing along. I personally have more fun playing, but I also have a salsera in the family who feels the same way about dancing. So I think in the long-run it really is about having fun.

As to professionalism, I must admit I have always found that term awkweird I say this because as a Spanish/ESL teacher I heard it a lot (both in my education and in "professional development"). So in salsa what makes a person a "professional"? Education? Training? Experience? Honestly, to me, it seems that worrying about professionalism in a field that is all about having fun kind of defeats the purpose.

Don't get me wrong - I constantly research and listen to music and try to improve my skills (my "professional development" as a musician I guess ), and I enjoy doing so. That dancer in my family struggles with salsa because of the specific movements required to do it "well". So if salsa dancing is all about having fun and social life, what is the importance of developing "professionals"?

 

[DJ Ara]

I agree 100% about having fun. And no matter what other styles / sub-genres are involved, salsa music makes ppl wanna get up and dance! I remember a little recording I did (just playing around really) that my mom & sister overhread and they started smiling and dancing. They know nothing whatsoever about the steps (neither do I though lol) and they just danced and had a good time. I personally thought the recording was awful, because I hadn't mixed or even added the bassline yet, but they got a kick out of listening to my song and dancing along. I personally have more fun playing, but I also have a salsera in the family who feels the same way about dancing. So I think in the long-run it really is about having fun.

It is all about fun or having a good time. That is the effect of dancing to and listening to music on people who are fans of both.

However, I have never seen anyone who does not dance salsa, get up and dance to it all night, unless they are drunk, in which case they will be bumping into people and genrally making others uncomfortable.

I have seen non-salsa people drop into salsa nights. They will have a few drinks and throw themselves on the dancefloor and have fun, while sometimes shouting, "arriba, arriba".

However, after a few songs they usually get bored and come to the DJ and ask, "Do you have any English music?". Others, will just leave, after making some "noise". What I say, is based on 21 years of DJ-ing experience.

Now, on a mixed Latin night that is aimed at non-salsa crowds, one can keep the attention span of the non dancers by quickly varying the rhythms, by perhaps playing a couple of up beat salsas and then going on to a couple of Merengues, followed by some Reggeatton, and then coming back to a couple of more salsas. That king of a mix can work and create great "FUN" atmosphere.

As to professionalism, I must admit I have always found that term awkweird I say this because as a Spanish/ESL teacher I heard it a lot (both in my education and in "professional development"). So in salsa what makes a person a "professional"? Education? Training? Experience?

When I mention professionalism, I am talking in context of people who work with this music. Salsa Teachers, DJs and promoters.

What makes person a professional in salsa? Having a clue would be good start, nowadays.
A professional in any field will have studied that field, hence will understand that field, and have a grasp of it on multiple levels.

It does not matter wether what one claims to be a teacher in something that is regarded as "fun" or not. For example, many people will dance Rock and Roll for fun. The least they can expect is for their dance teacher to be able dance it correctly, which also means, be able to interpret Rock and Roll songs, and in turn, teach it to properly to students. They would perhaps also expect their dance teacher to have valid knowledge of the music and bands, so as to use quality music in his instruction.

The DJs in turn would be expected to research Rock and Roll music and play the very best, for the crowds who would have already been familiarized with the good music in their Rock and Roll classes.

In salsa what you get, generally speaking, as there are exceptions, of course, is mediocre teachers, teaching mediocre dancing to mediocre salsa music. The students then go on to dance in clubs with mediocre djs playing more mediocre salsa, and other Latin rhythms. So, what you end up with is the clueless, teaching their cluelessness to the unsuspecting crowds, who in turn become clueless. Yes, they all end up having fun, but what happens when a real SALSERO walks into a club where these clueless "champions" are turning and spinning their hearts out on the dancefloor, to mediocre music, while having "fun". Well, the Salsero in question will end up having a lousy night, that is if he decides to stay, in the first place.

Shouldn´t it be the authentic salseros who are having fun in a given salsa night?

Well, it truly seems that the patients have taken over the asylum.

There is something very wrong in the international salsa scene, and that is a lack of professionalism, together with an overflow of opportunism.

What we have in salsa nowadays is "professionals" with a little bit of knowledge, filling up the gaps by making up stuff, and selling it as salsa.

Honestly, to me, it seems that worrying about professionalism in a field that is all about having fun kind of defeats the purpose.

In my humble opinion, professionalism is necessary in any field. All fields will have teachers and students; opinion makers and opinion followers; authentic knowledge and mediocricity, and so on. Personally speaking, if I am paying a person to teach me a given dance, even if it is for "having fun", then I want them to be qualified teachers, who know their stuff, and not some glorified con-men, or women, who have seen an opportunity to make a quick buck.

The fact remains that thousands of people nowadays are learning salsa from unqualified and mediocre instructors. They are paying for, and learning half baked salsa dancing. Many of them do not differentiate the good music from the bad one. It is really a question of, "what I like is good music, what I don´t, is bad music", of course, the "what I like" is largely based on what they have been exposed to by their clueless teachers and DJs.

So, we have salsa teachers who cannot teach salsa; salsa dancers who cannot dance salsa, even if they have a healthy arsenal of salsa-esque techniques; we have DJs who are not Salseros, but "like" salsa, just as they "like" bachata, merengue, regeatton, et al, and finally, we have promoters who could not care less.

Don't get me wrong - I constantly research and listen to music and try to improve my skills (my "professional development" as a musician I guess ), and I enjoy doing so. That dancer in my family struggles with salsa because of the specific movements required to do it "well". So if salsa dancing is all about having fun and social life, what is the importance of developing "professionals"?

I would not require the people who go out for a night of fun to be professionals, but the people who teach them to dance, have to be!

The DJ who plays the music, also has to be professional.

The promoter has to be a professional too. He must love, and know his salsa, so as to ensure that the DJs and the dance teachers who work for him, are doing their jobs properly.

A salsa club´s primary mission should be to promote good salsa music. This means creating appreciation for this genre, with the help of the dance teachers and the DJs, and where applicable, live musicians, who of course, should also be professionals.

 

[terence]

.



So if salsa dancing is all about having fun and social life, what is the importance of developing "professionals"?

In the simplest of terms, having the set skills to facilitate ease of passage thru ANY given aspect of the genre.

As a pro, we have a saying.. " First comes the hard work and then the fun begins "...

I do not know any Art form that does not have some form of basic discipline.

Its foundational to all dance forms and genres ; this is not to say one cannot have enjoyment without formalised instruction ( millions of Latinos do ) , more to the point, it may limit the extent of the "voyage " thru the labyrinth of musical styles and their application to the " dance " ...

What I do notice with many( most? ) beginner students, is they tend to get to hung up on minutae ; it has much relevance, but is not the avenue one should "walk " down in the too early stages ( more important issues to deal with ) ..

The "social " aspect of dance has been repeatedly overshadowed ( in ALL genres ) thru the advent of Competitions and Congresses ( they tend to promote elitism .. there wil be many who disagree with this.. but.. they have not lived thru all the changes I have been thru in dance )... like you stated, this is supposed to be fun,and the pursuit of excellence, can at best be disappointing ... that is not to say one should not neglect improvement , but as a world famous coach once said " Dont get hung up on your feet, and forget how to dance ! "....

 

[El Conguero]

like you stated, this is supposed to be fun,and the pursuit of excellence, can at best be disappointing ... that is not to say one should not neglect improvement , but as a world famous coach once said " Dont get hung up on your feet, and forget how to dance ! "....

Now we're talkin'.

As I said before I am all for improving (and in my music I enjoy practicing and learning more, which is actually a big part of how I found this site. Bt a concern of mine is that interest in "elitism" and "excellence" that, while fun to shoot for, can be frustrating and (as you said) disappointing at best.

But at the same time I don't think we should neglect improvement either. Obviously, there are some basic things a musician or dancer should know - for congueros that would be the basic tumbao pattern, for a timbalero the basic cáscara/mambo bell patterns, and for dancers the counting, basic movements etc. And once you get down the basics it only gets better from there. But you don't have to be Giovanni Hidalgo or Tito Puente to be able to play the music.

 

[terence]

. And once you get down the basics it only gets better from there.


But you don't have to be Giovanni Hidalgo or Tito Puente to be able to play the music.

Unfortunately, not always the case !...


I do..( unless they are on a CD )

 

[DJ Ara]

Just to emphasis my point.

No one expects a club dance floor to be full of professionals. However, one expects the DJs, the dance teachers and the promoters to be professionals. For that, they will need to be Salseros (capital S).

The public, or the clients are there to have "fun", however, they are paying for a service, wether they are learning to dance, or just out to dance salsa. The providers of the service HAVE to be professionals!!!!

The problem is that there are not enough professionals out there, hence the phenomenom of "Muppet Show dance floors" and Mediocre music that have become the norm, so much so, that the REAL professionals are having a hard time being professionals, and making living in an attempt to do a quality job!

 

[borikenSalsero]

Jimmy Bosch's Otra Oportunidad.

there is nothing but pain coming out of this song. the piano alone at the beginning should make you want to slow down, and feel sorrow. the trombone, omg. it's like jimmy's crying.

 

[borikenSalsero]

Panteon De Amor - Orquesta Zodiac
La Cuna Blanca- Raphy Leavitt