Searching for Grace

@offbeat
The keyword in the context is 'control as you wish', the shelf life of a pro ballet dancer is what until early 30's? It's not their choice, it's because they can't control their bodies as they wish anymore. It's the 'wish' that makes it sound strong. Even in the sense of balance, i may disagree though less so.

Also, I will say that for me, being graceful is quite different than dancing with grace.
 
Yupuhhuh said:
@offbeat
The keyword in the context is 'control as you wish', the shelf life of a pro ballet dancer is what until early 30's? It's not their choice, it's because they can't control their bodies as they wish anymore. It's the 'wish' that makes it sound strong. Even in the sense of balance, i may disagree though less so.

Also, I will say that for me, being graceful is quite different than dancing with grace.
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Still doesn't mean you can't be graceful and dance with grace. They may not be able to do the physically demanding and difficult movement. But if they were dancing with grace, age is not going to make a whole lot of difference. I don't know about ballet, but I know of other classical dance style with masters at 70 and 80 years of age who can put the 20 years old to shame.
 
Sabrosura said:
To me grace implies elegance of movement (as well as fluidity, smoothness, ease of movement). And good ballroom dancers are certainly graceful, in my opinion.
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I agree, Sabrosura... and whether one likes or dislikes Slavik's style, I would say he definitely has Grace.
The solo opening of this dance performance is one of my favorite examples of the poetry of motion that drew so much attention to his dancing when his star was shining brightly...

But there are so many examples of Grace amongst salsero/as, as well. BR dancers definitely don't have that locked down. A great & graceful dancer is that, regardless of their chosen form of expression, IMO.
 
Offbeat said:
Still doesn't mean you can't be graceful and dance with grace. They may not be able to do the physically demanding and difficult movement. But if they were dancing with grace, age is not going to make a whole lot of difference. I don't know about ballet, but I know of other classical dance style with masters at 70 and 80 years of age who can put the 20 years old to shame.
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I have always thought there was something about this man:

 
I think this is a great topic, Toan! To me it sometimes seems that 'grace' has an undeserved bad rep in salsa, probably the more so in Europe where most of us spent time (and lots of it) aiming at becoming more 'authentic', or 'street', 'back-to-the-roots', or whatever we may call it, and at a certain stage of your salsa skills development 'grace' sounds like the worst enemy of all these desired qualities. I myself am also guilty of this - been there, done that, fought with what I thought was 'grace', won the battle, I now want my 'grace' back :D
Ok, on a more serious note: I completely agree with Sabrosura on this topic: ultimately a complete and absolute control over your body is key to achieving grace. A control that has been automotized and internalized to a point where it is not visible to the eye of any observer. I think a great example of grace which does not contradict the concept of raw and natural movement can be found in many Alvin Ailey pieces.
Of course it is not solely the ability to control, but also the knowledge about how to control and in what direction to steer as well as the wisdom to know when to let go entirely and simply trust your body to do the right thing. But I assume by the time one figured out the control part, one also knows how to apply it.
 
Offbeat said:
Still doesn't mean you can't be graceful and dance with grace.
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This is true and i hope I haven't made any comments contrary to this. Perhaps it may even be true that to have grace you must first learn to be graceful. As I said, for me they are two different things.

Offbeat said:
They may not be able to do the physically demanding and difficult movement. But if they were dancing with grace, age is not going to make a whole lot of difference. I don't know about ballet, but I know of other classical dance style with masters at 70 and 80 years of age who can put the 20 years old to shame.
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Out of everything written, I think this paragraph would be where I started looking at dancing with grace. For me it has nothing to do with controlling the body, though perhaps, for some, controlling the body needs to happen first.
 
I think dancing gracefully does require bodily control. But it's not a fierce, hard control, it's a detailed, nuanced, but complete control. By gaining skill in precision, timing and balance, it's possible to achieve the required movements with the appearance of being effortless. That's graceful. Smooth movement that appears effortless. Without the skill, it won't be smooth, without the practice, it won't seem effortless.
 
sweavo said:
I think dancing gracefully does require bodily control. But it's not a fierce, hard control, it's a detailed, nuanced, but complete control. By gaining skill in precision, timing and balance, it's possible to achieve the required movements with the appearance of being effortless. That's graceful. Smooth movement that appears effortless. Without the skill, it won't be smooth, without the practice, it won't seem effortless.
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+1 The more I search into this, the devil is really in the details, this video is a non-salsa video, it is at points extremely simple, but the attention to detail and subtleties is amazing

 
I also agree that muscle control is key here. To me the ultimate dance grace-wise is ballet. They appear completely relaxed and light as feathers but you can only achieve this after years and years of hard training. And importantly - in front of the mirror. You need this feedback on how your movement reflects the intention you put in it.

The other side of the coin here is whether going too far in this kind of training will restrict your natural expression of the music and your natural style. I personally don't think a reasonable amount of such training will do any harm. Maybe even open new doors in what you would be able to express. But I do believe we need to consider this and try not to get stuck in copying movements and styles.
 
Isn't grace really the end product when you bring together a collection of things you might train or possess such as poise, fluidity, balance rather than *what* you train itself. I would say just like sabor some aspects of grace are more inherent than trained.
 
toan-hoang said:
Why would you leave grace for the ladies? Would you say the same for style or class?
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In the long list of priorities, it strikes me as fairly unimportant for a man; in some ways grace could get in the way.

I love graceful women but it's a tricky attribute to apply to a man.
 
WessexSalsero said:
In the long list of priorities, it strikes me as fairly unimportant for a man; in some ways grace could get in the way.

I love graceful women but it's a tricky attribute to apply to a man.
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I think masculinity and grace can be combined; check Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, even Jackie Chan (youtube.com/watch?v=j4Y62DGkyXw)

When I think of masculine grace in salsa, I think of Frankie Martinez and how he epitomizes the cat-like way of moving: a grace that is feline rather than feminine.

Probably right though, starting from nothing, grace shouldn't be the #1 priority... that's jumping the gun somewhat. Newbie men should prioritize the pre-requisites of control, timing etc.

Heck, some of 'em should start with deodorant and manners, and work up to timing etc...
 
For ladies I feel grace is all in the arms - creating a languid movement all the way down to the fingertips (in a soft manner - no pointy fingers or sharp movements).
I recently took a styling class from Frankie and if I remember correctly he said back home he does not call them styling classes but Arm Movement classes and this is to a large extent what creates his look
 
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