Salsa open diary

[1derpalm]

I have this girl from my previous dance studio, who I thought is on the mutual understanding with me that we don't enjoy dancing with each other, therefore don't ask for a dance. I have not asked her for a dance for nearly a year now. But she still make the dramatic moves to avoid me. I was at Boston salsa festival yesterday. In the room that lead vs followers ratio was like 1:2, when she still make those moves (turn around, walk quickly away from me or grab someone quick before I ask...)

Girl, read the room. We had twice as many girls as guys here. You would have to put a gun on my head to have me ask you for a dance. And you'd better don't miss it if you pull the trigger. WTH!

I hate people like that.

 

[Sabrosura]

I could not start Tango since the thought of being a beginner sickens me. Doing it once in Salsa was enough.

It's pretty unlikely that anyone with years of salsa (or other partner dancing) experience would go through beginner's hell if learning another dance.

To offer my own experience with kizomba: I had very little experience with it, 3-4 months of weekly classes but very little social dancing (this was before covid). Those courses gave me a good technical foundation with basic kizomba dancing, but not much more. However, I also had my salsa (and ballroom, and bachata) 10 years' experience to help me.

Fast forward to June of this year (having not danced any kiz since my courses in 2019): I show up in Paris and get into the kizomba scene intensively. Within a few weeks, my dancing shoots up to a level where I can now follow super-intricate leading, in all kinds of styles, from some of the best leads in Paris, who tell me that my following is at an extremely high level, e.g. that I can follow subtle weight transfer lead cues that most kiz follows can't.

Another way to gauge how good you are as a follow in kizomba is how long the really good leads dance with you (because in kizomba you can dance anywhere from a couple songs, if the compatibility is not great, to...tons of songs with the same partner if you have good connection ) -- back in June, the really good leads would dance with me for a few songs on average, i.e., not that long. Now, I have some of the best leads in Paris dancing with me for an hour+ (my record so far is two and a half hours with the same partner )

(This is no small feat in a scene where the lead:follow ratio is often 1:2 or higher - meaning, there are a ton of follows competing for good leads.)

Dancers who have been dancing kizomba for many years, some 10+ years, will ask me how long I've been dancing it and are shocked when I say, just a few months -- they assume I have years of kizomba experience

So, all this to say, I successfully avoided beginner's hell completely thanks to my prior dance experience. Fairly certain I would have had a very different experience had I started kizomba with no dance experience.

All this to say, if fear of beginner's hell is a factor in not wanting to learn another dance, I think one can rest assured the beginner phase will be a lot smoother than with one's first partner dance.

 

[1derpalm]

It's pretty unlikely that anyone with years of salsa (or other partner dancing) experience would go through beginner's hell if learning another dance.

To offer my own experience with kizomba: I had very little experience with it, 3-4 months of weekly classes but very little social dancing (this was before covid). Those courses gave me a good technical foundation with basic kizomba dancing, but not much more. However, I also had my salsa (and ballroom, and bachata) 10 years' experience to help me.

Fast forward to June of this year (having not danced any kiz since my courses in 2019): I show up in Paris and get into the kizomba scene intensively. Within a few weeks, my dancing shoots up to a level where I can now follow super-intricate leading, in all kinds of styles, from some of the best leads in Paris, who tell me that my following is at an extremely high level, e.g. that I can follow subtle weight transfer lead cues that most kiz follows can't.

Another way to gauge how good you are as a follow in kizomba is how long the really good leads dance with you (because in kizomba you can dance anywhere from a couple songs, if the compatibility is not great, to...tons of songs with the same partner if you have good connection ) -- back in June, the really good leads would dance with me for a few songs on average, i.e., not that long. Now, I have some of the best leads in Paris dancing with me for an hour+ (my record so far is two and a half hours with the same partner )

(This is no small feat in a scene where the lead:follow ratio is often 1:2 or higher - meaning, there are a ton of follows competing for good leads.)

Dancers who have been dancing kizomba for many years, some 10+ years, will ask me how long I've been dancing it and are shocked when I say, just a few months -- they assume I have years of kizomba experience

So, all this to say, I successfully avoided beginner's hell completely thanks to my prior dance experience. Fairly certain I would have had a very different experience had I started kizomba with no dance experience.

All this to say, if fear of beginner's hell is a factor in not wanting to learn another dance, I think one can rest assured the beginner phase will be a lot smoother than with one's first partner dance.

I've seen vids of your dancing and your an anomaly in a good way. I'll be honest and say doubtful anyone will pick it up as quick as you.

 

[Bostontraitor]

I've seen vids of your dancing and your an anomaly in a good way. I'll be honest and say doubtful anyone will pick it up as quick as you.

Here is a video of me dancing. As you can see I have more connection, more musicality, more energy... Do you think I am anomaly in a good way too? I expect myself become a good kizomba lead in about two weeks.

francildocapricho on TikTok

So quero uma recaídinha com voce chama no Piseiro @jovina.falcao @marcynho sensação @Gabi Martins #AnimaisNoTikTok #FreeFireXAnitta #viralvideo #francildocapricho #fyp #tiktok #videodemilhoes #piseiro #brasilia

www.tiktok.com

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I've seen vids of your dancing and your an anomaly in a good way. I'll be honest and say doubtful anyone will pick it up as quick as you.

Yeah.. One of my Salsa teachers defected to Tango and I quote, this is what she said to us:

If you want to learn Tango, be prepared to learn how to walk for 2 years. I had to do this, then YOU WILL TOO.. IT”S NOT FAIR OTHERWISE!

The last part was a joke, but geez, that didn’t make me want to learn Tango or any other dance. Eventually, I did try it and it wasn’t torturous but it wasn’t easy either and I didn’t feel like reprogramming my brain just to have a chance at being a serviceable Tango dancer.

I mean, I could probably become pretty good at some other dance if I really tried, but I still don’t find any of the other partner dances appealing from a dancing or musical standpoint.

I’d only do it to increase the potential for more dances, but that wouldn’t be necessary if people would just stop defecting from Salsa.

 

[Sabrosura]

Do you think I am anomaly in a good way too? I expect myself become a good kizomba lead in about two weeks.

Joking aside (and different topic) -- kizomba classes are much, much better at teaching technique, connection, musicality, etc. compared to salsa classes (most of whom teach none of these things and only "moves"), so it's no wonder that there are kizomba leads with only a few months of dancing/classes who dance at a level most salsa leads with *years* of experience are not anywhere close to.

Let that sink in.

Then there are the many really amazing kizomba leads who are an absolute dream to dance with and many of them reach that level after only 3-4 years of dancing, compared to salsa, where leads like this, even after 10+ years of dancing, are one in a million.

 

[Sabrosura]

I didn’t feel like reprogramming my brain just to have a chance at being a serviceable Tango dancer.

Well, brain flexibility is a good thing And the benefits go both ways. Dancing kizomba has improved my salsa in just a couple months, in ways that years of dancing just salsa did not.

I mean, I could probably become pretty good at some other dance if I really tried, but I still don’t find any of the other partner dances appealing from a dancing or musical standpoint.

Right, you have made it clear you are not interested in learning another dance, so not sure why you try to come up with rationalizations like avoiding beginner's hell If you indeed wanted to learn another dance, you would. But as you stated, you don't, so, no need for trying to come up with other rationalizations.

Re: your not finding other dances appealing, I will echo what Sergio said in the other thread:

I do believe it is a very narrowed view to compare dances and to argue that we don't like a specific dance without trying it seriously, passing the discovery, toggling phase.

 

[Amun]

Joking aside (and different topic) -- kizomba classes are much, much better at teaching technique, connection, musicality, etc. compared to salsa classes (most of whom teach none of these things and only "moves"), so it's no wonder that there are kizomba leads with only a few months of dancing/classes who dance at a level most salsa leads with *years* of experience are not anywhere close to.

Let that sink in.

Then there are the many really amazing kizomba leads who are an absolute dream to dance with and many of them reach that level after only 3-4 years of dancing, compared to salsa, where leads like this, even after 10+ years of dancing, are one in a million.

I love the idea of having more musicality (in my area there is literally none of that in salsa classes). I know you are quite a high-level dancer but can you tell if kizomba has a higher percentage of creepy guys in it? I struggled a lot with this even in salsa at the beginners level and kizomba seems even "more suited" for this

 

[Sabrosura]

I love the idea of having more musicality (in my area there is literally none of that in salsa classes). I know you are quite a high-level dancer but can you tell if kizomba has a higher percentage of creepy guys in it? I struggled a lot with this even in salsa at the beginners level and kizomba seems even "more suited" for this

I think this depends more on the area / specific dance scene than the dance itself. E.g. in my 10 years of dancing, salsa in New York and now kizomba (and salsa) in Paris, I have encountered very few creepy guys. E.g. in Paris there will be kizomba guys who try to flirt with me after we dance, but they are still respectful, not creepy, and once I reject their advances they back off. During the dancing everyone is respectful of the physical closeness, I have not experienced any abuse of the dance intimacy.

Actually I feel a lot safer in kizomba than in salsa because no one is being rough or hurting my shoulders like in salsa And any flirting that might happen will happen after the dance, not during. And you generally get as much physical intimacy as you want -- you can get close to the lead or stay a bit apart, the woman gets the choice of how much physical intimacy there is during the dance. And even if you do get close, people won't assume you want to get sexual -- people are aware it's a dance that requires physical closeness, and the physical closeness is not misinterpreted as sexual interest. It's actually really nice that you get to experience this lovely physical closeness without it being misinterpreted as more, it feels like a very safe space of connection

Also, kizomba, unlike BS or even salsa, seems to have very little tolerance for bad dancers who are there just to get close to women. If a guy is there just to hit on women and can't really dance, he will quickly get rejected. I see these guys regularly get told "No" when they invite women. Good dance skills are essential, and most creepers don't have the willingness to spend that kind of time and effort learning to be good dancers.

In the last 3 months of my intensive kizomba dancing in Paris (almost every night, and sometimes two parties on the same night), the guys I have danced with have been very respectful. I can only recall one instance of a guy who was pushy and uncomfortably touchy-feely during the dance, and I quickly ended the dance and he got the message. So, we're talking one guy out of several hundred.

To keep in line with our collective SF dislike of BS - I think the highest probability of creepy guys is in sensual bachata Because unlike kizomba, BS is an easy dance with low barriers of entry, so it's a creeper's paradise.

 

[Amun]

I think this depends more on the area / specific dance scene than the dance itself. E.g. in my 10 years of dancing, salsa in New York and now kizomba (and salsa) in Paris, I have encountered very few creepy guys. E.g. in Paris there will be kizomba guys who try to flirt with me after we dance, but they are still respectful, not creepy, and once I reject their advances they back off. During the dancing everyone is respectful of the physical closeness, I have not experienced any abuse of the dance intimacy.

Actually I feel a lot safer in kizomba than in salsa because no one is being rough or hurting my shoulders like in salsa And any flirting that might happen will happen after the dance, not during. And you generally get as much physical intimacy as you want -- you can get close to the lead or stay a bit apart, the woman gets the choice of how much physical intimacy there is during the dance. And even if you do get close, people won't assume you want to get sexual -- people are aware it's a dance that requires physical closeness, and the physical closeness is not misinterpreted as sexual interest. It's actually really nice that you get to experience this lovely physical closeness without it being misinterpreted as more, it feels like a very safe space of connection

Also, kizomba, unlike BS or even salsa, seems to have very little tolerance for bad dancers who are there just to get close to women. If a guy is there just to hit on women and can't really dance, he will quickly get rejected. I see these guys regularly get told "No" when they invite women. Good dance skills are essential, and most creepers don't have the willingness to spend that kind of time and effort learning to be good dancers.

In the last 3 months of my intensive kizomba dancing in Paris (almost every night, and sometimes two parties on the same night), the guys I have danced with have been very respectful. I can only recall one instance of a guy who was pushy and uncomfortably touchy-feely during the dance, and I quickly ended the dance and he got the message. So, we're talking one guy out of several hundred.

To keep in line with our collective SF dislike of BS - I think the highest probability of creepy guys is in sensual bachata Because unlike kizomba, BS is an easy dance with low barriers of entry, so it's a creeper's paradise.

I wonder if this is also influenced by the fact that you are a very skilled dancer already or if kizomba is actually really better off - which is surprising because to my eyes it is much more sensual than salsa and bachata and I would assume it's easier to hide there. Creepy guys were so common here that I actually wanted to stop with salsa but I realized the better I got the less likely they wanted to dance with me. The strategy was that they learned a few basic moves and went only after beginners, they avoided skilled dancers like a plague. However I'm a bit worried when you say in kizomba good dance skills are essential, I have none I was hoping I might get some skill there and improve if the classes have higher standards than salsa

 

[Sabrosura]

@Amun
To add to what I said above, there is another aspect of kizomba that leads to it being less prone to creepers than bachata or salsa: in kizomba dance culture there is a certain feeling that a big part of the dancing is making the woman feel good (emphasis on "feel good", whereas in salsa it tends to be more about "look good").

E.g., a lot of the dancing in kizomba is focused on creating dance enjoyment for the woman Like, I have had kizomba dance sessions where the guy was basically almost entirely focused on creating gentle pleasant movements in my body (this is usually on slower music, like douceur, and it is *nothing* like the ridiculous stuff in BS, I am talking about musical, pleasant, gentle movement.) I lead and follow in kizomba and follows reign supreme in kizomba, the dance is all about making them feel as good (and safe) as possible And as the follow is often the one who decides when to end the dance session (which could range from a few minutes to an hour+ if the dance connection is very good), that's another reason why leads are focused on making follows feel as good as possible in the dance, so that the follow will dance with them for longer, since they know the follow can end the dance session at any time (so can the lead of course).

I think this aspect of the dance culture in kizomba further contributes to the lower tolerance for creeps in kizomba.

Also, there is very low tolerance for guys who do risky tricks, other dancers will look down on them for putting the woman's safety at risk, or for doing moves without musicality, just for the sake of moves (hello, salsa ).

And also, at least in Paris, the kizomba community seems very tightly-knit, and the parties have a very intimate, almost family-like feel, like, there are free snacks and drinks and even chocolate fountains Of course, I don't know if it's the same in other dance scenes.

 

[Sabrosura]

I wonder if this is also influenced by the fact that you are a very skilled dancer already or if kizomba is actually really better off - which is surprising because to my eyes it is much more sensual than salsa and bachata and I would assume it's easier to hide there. Creepy guys were so common here that I actually wanted to stop with salsa but I realized the better I got the less likely they wanted to dance with me. The strategy was that they learned a few basic moves and went only after beginners, they avoided skilled dancers like a plague. However I'm a bit worried when you say in kizomba good dance skills are essential, I have none I was hoping I might get some skill there and improve if the classes have higher standards than salsa

I'd say, go for it, what have you go to lose You may discover a new dance love

And indeed, take a couple months of kizomba classes first. With a good teacher, that should give you enough technique to geta good start. Hopefully you have some good teachers in your area (happy to recommend some if you tell me where you are located). And, you can always come to Paris for an intensive kizomba week many people do this and have a lot of fun at the regular weekly parties and classes.

And remember that you can always say "Thank you" to end the kizomba dance session (because until one of the partners ends it, it is assumed they both want to continue). It is considered polite to dance at least 2-3 songs with a partner to allow the connection to form (but songs in kizomba are shorter than in salsa). After that, you can say thank you if you want to end the session, or just keep dancing until one of you decided to end it. A good point to end a session is also when the music style changes (in Paris, that's usually every 20-30 minutes, but in other scenes this may not happen).

 

[Amun]

@Sabrosura you described it in such a way I'm really tempted to run to town to find the first kizomba class available! Though I will have a problem with attending classes soon as I'm moving to a village so might need to go to Paris intensive week. Is that actually good for beginners? I love intensive classes please send me a link if you know about something. I speak a little french but would be great if there was something for English speakers. But have to say I'm also worried as I have a big problem with musicality which seems very essential in kizomba

 

[Amun]

Actually, when I opened the topic, I might as well ask here. As I said, I seriously struggle with musicality. How do you improve this? I had a private class and the teacher played music. He asked me to find 1 and 5. I couldn't. He found it for me and ask me to clap to another similar song. I couldn't find it. We tried again and after a while, he openly asked if I would like to do some dancing instead (in other words we were wasting time there). I tried with a different teacher one more time and it was basically the same, she asked me to find 1 and 5, we tried and after a while she diplomatically suggested dancing. I'm getting desperate, to be honest, I found some app here with salsa music where you can turn on/off different instruments but didn't help one bit. I tried to listen to salsa music, but no improvement there. Before someone asks how the hell I can go to socials I purely rely on lead to find 1 and I somehow manage to stay on the beat

 

[TikiTaka]

Actually, when I opened the topic, I might as well ask here. As I said, I seriously struggle with musicality. How do you improve this? I had a private class and the teacher played music. He asked me to find 1 and 5. I couldn't. He found it for me and ask me to clap to another similar song. I couldn't find it. We tried again and after a while, he openly asked if I would like to do some dancing instead (in other words we were wasting time there). I tried with a different teacher one more time and it was basically the same, she asked me to find 1 and 5, we tried and after a while she diplomatically suggested dancing. I'm getting desperate, to be honest, I found some app here with salsa music where you can turn on/off different instruments but didn't help one bit. I tried to listen to salsa music, but no improvement there. Before someone asks how the hell I can go to socials I purely rely on lead to find 1 and I somehow manage to stay on the beat

In my opinion this video is very helpful.

Try to understand where the "1" is in the piano pattern, then it will be easier when you hear the music. It is easier to hear compared to turning on/off instruments in an app, in my opinion.

Particularly the "salsa montuno" and "son montuno" may be particularly relevant to learn.

 

[Amun]

In my opinion this video is very helpful.

Try to understand where the "1" is in the piano pattern, then it will be easier when you hear the music. It is easier to hear compared to turning on/off instruments in an app, in my opinion.

Particularly the "salsa montuno" and "son montuno" may be particularly relevant to learn.

thank you but this video made me wonder if I'm simply so tone deaf that I'm beyond any help. If he didn't say where 1 is I would never pick it.

 

[TikiTaka]

thank you but this video made me wonder if I'm simply so tone deaf that I'm beyond any help. If he didn't say where 1 is I would never pick it.

It's normal. I listened to salsa many years without knowing where the "1" is. Probably danced On1, On3, On5, etc.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

thank you but this video made me wonder if I'm simply so tone deaf that I'm beyond any help. If he didn't say where 1 is I would never pick it.

No you're not. Salsa is difficult. Don't beat yourself up about it.

Salsa is about patterns. Once you become more familiar with them, it becomes clearer.

You might want to try listening to songs that have vocal counting overlayed on top. Then listen to the original track and try to guess where the 1 is.

Another thing that might help is to remember that musical phrasings in Salsa music tend to be repeated 4 times.

Here is a tutorial with visual aids that show you what I mean by repeating patterns.

 

[Offbeat]

Actually, when I opened the topic, I might as well ask here. As I said, I seriously struggle with musicality. How do you improve this? I had a private class and the teacher played music. He asked me to find 1 and 5. I couldn't. He found it for me and ask me to clap to another similar song. I couldn't find it. We tried again and after a while, he openly asked if I would like to do some dancing instead (in other words we were wasting time there). I tried with a different teacher one more time and it was basically the same, she asked me to find 1 and 5, we tried and after a while she diplomatically suggested dancing. I'm getting desperate, to be honest, I found some app here with salsa music where you can turn on/off different instruments but didn't help one bit. I tried to listen to salsa music, but no improvement there. Before someone asks how the hell I can go to socials I purely rely on lead to find 1 and I somehow manage to stay on the beat

Musicality and finding the beat are not the same. Yes, you need to be able find the beat, understand structure of the music, how different instruments accent or play on which beats, and after all that how those very rules are broken. It is almost a rat hole. If you do all that, it isn't guaranteed make you a better dancer, it will only make you listen better. That's a lot of stuff! You shouldn't let that take away enjoyment of dancing or being musical when dancing.

If you search forums you will find old posts from @UnlikelySalsero on how to find the beat in salsa music. He had a blog and then converted that into YouTube series. But we also have threads discussing finding 1 and 5, etc.

I can totally relate to feeling tone deaf. I would always get offbeat when dancing and still do sometimes. I tried everything, all the exercises, every trick and crutch, etc. Finally also had privates where we only focused on finding the beat and stepping on it. My instructor was also a very good musician in addition to being a great dancer. He tried many different ways in the private (which I took after about year and half to two years). I think I was one of his greatest challenge, many things that had worked with countless others wouldn't work with me However one of the most famous salsa instructor told me it took him two years to be able to find the beat and step on it. He also took privates from the same guy I took privates from. Finding a beat is one skill you have to acquire. Then stepping on the beat correctly is the next skill. When you combine the two, the difficulty increases.

However as a follower you can use leader as a crutch. As you dance more and hear the music more you will develop a feel for where the key beats are. It may not be 1 or 5, but you could feel the rhythm of the music like say the conga rhythm or the clave or the piano riff and be able to derive where the beats are. A lot of exercises about finding the beat often tell you to isolate instruments. Because certain instruments play notes on certain beats. That never worked for me. Two worse things that mess me up is either counting out the music or trying to isolate the individual instrument. My instructor right from the start emphasized that I should hear the music as a whole and the phrasing whether it is 8 bar measure or whole phrase. And then use that to find 1. That did help. I don't try to isolate individual instruments to this day. Then there is a cheat code, e.g. when horns come in or when chorus comes or when the singer starts to indicate where 1 or 5 might be.

Many people struggle with salsa music and finding the beat. In fact it is very popularly known that some salsa musicians can't step on the beat when they dance. As I said these are two different skills. Most of the dancers in their first and second year don't consistently step on correct beat. So don't beat yourself up too much about it.

Musicality and responding to the music is a whole different ballgame. Because you are trying to dance to the mood of the music, react to the accents, play with the rhythm like you are an instrument yourself, react to what your partner is doing, hit the breaks, and so many different small things. Freestyle shines by yourself can help you improve musicality. Just put on the music and groove to it. Don't worry how you look, because you can do it while at home. You can later polish your movements. Get used to feeling the music and dancing to it without worrying whether your step is right or wrong. Once you are comfortable then you can start doing it when dancing. Try some other partner dances and you might get exposed to musicality in a way that currently you can't in salsa.

 

[Bostontraitor]

Joking aside (and different topic) -- kizomba classes are much, much better at teaching technique, connection, musicality, etc. compared to salsa classes (most of whom teach none of these things and only "moves"), so it's no wonder that there are kizomba leads with only a few months of dancing/classes who dance at a level most salsa leads with *years* of experience are not anywhere close to.

Let that sink in.

Then there are the many really amazing kizomba leads who are an absolute dream to dance with and many of them reach that level after only 3-4 years of dancing, compared to salsa, where leads like this, even after 10+ years of dancing, are one in a million.

IMHO, all the close quarter dances requires more connections than Salsa. From Zouk to kizomba will be an easy walk. Salsa is not the first type of dance that I learned. I even learned bachata before salsa, I never felt salsa required much connection compare to other dances. I also took a few months kizomba lessons. If you know how to sensual bachata or zouk, the transition to kizomba will be very smooth.

It's hard to be a good salsa dancer because salsa has more elements for the individual skills. At a higher level, you dance to the music and you dance to the instruments. Zouk, kizomba, very much a partner dance. At higher level, you dance to the mood.