Salsa open diary

Gaviota said:
You're missing the point by a margin.

Once the chorus comes in, the whole song is entirely straightforward. It's the first minute and a half which is under discussion.

And while I'll agree that the 8 count and the 5 in particular is dancer language, the underlying concept of "finding the 1 vs 5" is musical phrasing in 2s, 4s, 8s of bars, which is absolutely a musical thing, not a dance thing. Dancers aren't inventing structure there.
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Negative. I addressed the beginning, but I also wanted to state that as the song progresses (well past 1:30), different sections start at different times instead of being "straight forward" and only coming in at "1". One can call what I extrapolated in the rest of the song as a, "by the way" addition. This reminds me, with regards to rheemixed struggling, I am very selective with whom I dance timba. It can be a an absolute chore or disaster with some follows. I'm talking about an intangibility.

I never said anything about inventing structure, what I was saying was that the dance reference is not the same as the music. The item of discussion is the song, hence I wanted to set the reference/framework with regards to the music. I explicitly left out of phrasing so as to not confuse people who are not wise to the theory. I was keeping it simple. A lot of dancers already think the music is an 8 count because of the 1,2,3,5,6,7 ****, that's even if they bother to look into it.
 
Chris_Yannick said:
As funny as this sounds, as a lead who doesn't switch, I am glad that switching isn't very common in Salsa. Obligation aside, I want to set the pace and tempo of the dance.
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Switching is most common in fusion. I have hardly ever gone to fusion no more than two or three times before Covid and none later. I don’t know if it has become more popular. I recall I saw very low rate of switching within the dance back then.

Next up the ladder is WCS. Role switching is relatively more common than exchanging roles within a dance. At most I may have witnessed one or two dance at most during the night where roles were exchanged in the same song.

Then in tango too, there might be an odd dance once in a while where there is switching within the dance.

No matter which dance, switching within a song requires both partners able to dance and willing to, both roles. You can’t randomly switch without other person agreeing. Or the other person is willing to switch but doesn’t known the opposite role. In which case switching degrades the quality and turns into random experiment.

In fusion and WCS the music is formulaic and straight forward.

Outside of fusion, I don’t see switching within a dance anything but an exception. It is even rarer for switch within dance to happen between opposite genders. When it does happen it is same gender partners.

Chris_Yannick said:
With that said, you can have very musical dances without switching.
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Indeed.

Chris_Yannick said:
There are certain very good follows who make shared responsibility possible in Salsa without having to hijack.
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Yes. It takes the dance to next level when your partner can enhance your own dance and musicality. That is what sets a really good partner apart from the rest.


Chris_Yannick said:
Not fretting over things like where the 1/5 is or what side of the Clave I'm dancing on is a good way towards achieving that.
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If music changes it is okay to take a bar or two to adjust. You get used to the bridge when either the music or the clave or both change the direction (is that the word to describe the 1/5 or clave direction change?).

Unconsciously after dancing a lot or hearing the music a lot we can at least recognize the bridge. Whether you can recognize if anything changed in the music depends. Sometimes you catch it quickly. Sometimes it takes time. If it takes time, you can do one of several things. Hold the dance - in place close hold, in place back and forth (e.g. interrupt the CBL and send the follower back - do this 2 or three times), multiple 360s, multi spin, just back and forth standard basic - add more flavour to it with body movement, or the best is you realise the song is tricky so break apart for solo shines when the bridge comes. Otherwise too, if you temp lost where you are in the song, going solo always works whether for a couple of bars or more. That used to be my go to trick when I lost timing.

 
eclo said:
I find it you have good musicality you don't need to know the songs. I quite like a few familiar favourites but I also love to discover new tracks. The key to being a good DJ is balancing that.
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After many discussions, I realised that some people are intuitive dancers. They don’t need to have heard the music before. Some people aren’t and prefer to know the music. Being intuitive dancer doesn’t mean you have the tools (skills) to express in your dance what you are hearing. A same person can be on a spectrum where certain music style they are more intuitive to than other style. Within salsa music we have so many rhythms. You could be intuitive to one set of rhythms than to the rest.

There is also a difference between music that is better for hearing than dancing and the music that could be tricky to dance. Skills and experience as a dancer will also dictate how you dance to or how much you enjoyed a tricky song.
 
Jaime_Pipoca said:
A lot of dancers already think the music is an 8 count because of the 1,2,3,5,6,7 ****, that's even if they bother to look into it.
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Unfortunately dance instructors don't mention this. When I did beginner courses as follower last year it called my attention: possibly there are people in the course who play an instrument and these will think "Why the heck is instructor counting until 8?" They should shortly mention this difference, but many instructors who don't play an instrument might not even know about it.
 
Offbeat said:
Switching is most common in fusion. I have hardly ever gone to fusion no more than two or three times before Covid and none later. I don’t know if it has become more popular. I recall I saw very low rate of switching within the dance back then.

Next up the ladder is WCS. Role switching is relatively more common than exchanging roles within a dance. At most I may have witnessed one or two dance at most during the night where roles were exchanged in the same song.

Then in tango too, there might be an odd dance once in a while where there is switching within the dance.

No matter which dance, switching within a song requires both partners able to dance and willing to, both roles. You can’t randomly switch without other person agreeing. Or the other person is willing to switch but doesn’t known the opposite role. In which case switching degrades the quality and turns into random experiment.
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Role switching within a song is rare even in WCS. As you wrote both must be really good, I don't see it happen below advanced level. Sometimes an improver follower hijacks for two seconds and makes a variation of her taste, but then the lead continues being the lead.

In salsa I don't see role switch within a song coming and that's ok, it would change the whole dynamics too much. It's not good to fusion everything into every dance. In Bachata I did already role switch within a song for fun, but both agreed before and both must be able to do both roles (I struggle as follower of course, but for fun it was ok).

This Leo Lorenzo video shows many WCS role switches within a song, happening every few seconds, it's described into the video when it happens. Mind both are absolute pro dancers plus it was a switch competition, so the many switches are expected. Normally it's not that often and as I said I don't observe it below advanced level, so even in WCS it's a rather exceptional thing. But fun to watch.

 
MamboJazz said:
Unfortunately dance instructors don't mention this. When I did beginner courses as follower last year it called my attention: possibly there are people in the course who play an instrument and these will think "Why the heck is instructor counting until 8?" They should shortly mention this difference, but many instructors who don't play an instrument might not even know about it.
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I think most people who played instruments will understand the concept of musical phrasing well enough to follow it as an 8 count. The biggest thing for me was I would count it out as 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4 like I was counting out measures when I first started. The other thing I noticed was moreso how even some instructors couldn't find the 1 or 2 that easily or it took them a couple bars. Before I started dancing, I had no idea that wasn't intuitive for a human being.
 
rheemixed said:
I think most people who played instruments will understand the concept of musical phrasing well enough to follow it as an 8 count. The biggest thing for me was I would count it out as 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4 like I was counting out measures when I first started. The other thing I noticed was moreso how even some instructors couldn't find the 1 or 2 that easily or it took them a couple bars. Before I started dancing, I had no idea that wasn't intuitive for a human being.
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They can follow it, but it's absolutely hated. As an excellent salsa dancer and musician I know said after being asked, "What if a dancer tells you salsa is in 8 beats?", and I quote in a very stern manner, "Oh, there would be a revolt." Musicians hate it. HATE IT. With that being said, I can only hope to imagine that my musician friends who are decades invested in music must absolutely cringe when they are forced to do 8 counts to what they know are 4 counts. You don't know how much they shake their heads as they have to sit through the dance lesson as they hear 1,2,3,5,6,7. I think only focusing on the 1,2,3,5,6,7 is Bachata Sensual, as it does a disservice to those who are learning the dance. I was teaching a pianist salsa dancing. I started off with the 1,2,3,5,6,7, as a dancer count and they followed along, but thought it was kinda weird. Then I said let's go with 4 counts now; BOOM. Their face lit up and they began to really flow. Suddenly the doors opened and off they went.
 
Jaime_Pipoca said:
They can follow it, but it's absolutely hated. As an excellent salsa dancer and musician I know said after being asked, "What if a dancer tells you salsa is in 8 beats?", and I quote in a very stern manner, "Oh, there would be a revolt." Musicians hate it. HATE IT. With that being said, I can only hope to imagine that my musician friends who are decades invested in music must absolutely cringe when they are forced to do 8 counts to what they know are 4 counts. You don't know how much they shake their heads as they have to sit through the dance lesson as they hear 1,2,3,5,6,7. I think only focusing on the 1,2,3,5,6,7 is Bachata Sensual, as it does a disservice to those who are learning the dance. I was teaching a pianist salsa dancing. I started off with the 1,2,3,5,6,7, as a dancer count and they followed along, but thought it was kinda weird. Then I said let's go with 4 counts now; BOOM. Their face lit up and they began to really flow. Suddenly the doors opened and off they went.
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There is a very old post or thread. Before bachata was becoming popular. First generation bachata instructors were springing up. Before that no one was teaching. People saw others dance and pick it up. And no, I am not taking about BS, which was no where on the horizon.

I asked if people were counting bachata as 1,2,3,4 (i.e. 1,2,3, tap) or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 (1,2,3, tap, 5 6,7,tap). Whether 4 count or 8 count. Where I was what I was seeing was mostly 4 count. Got a bit surprised when I heard others were using 8 count for bachata. Merengue too. You are better off with 4 count.

When it comes to dancing there is a good reason for 8 count. If musicians think it is weird they are narrow minded or restricted in their ability to relate dancing and music. Most of the salsa music is based around the son clave rhythm. Which is a two bar rhythm. Besides the way music is composed with call-response pattern - is also two bars. The phrasing for dancers makes sense in 8 counts.

This 8 count structure is common in salsa, swing, tango, and ballroom.

I haven’t first hand heard musicians who say they hate it. I know several musicians who attempt to teach musicality (in dancing) to dancers. They too use 8 counts. Seen it in both tango and salsa.
 
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Offbeat said:
Most of the salsa music is based around the son clave rhythm. Which is a two bar rhythm. Besides the when music is composed the call-response is also two bars. The phrasing for dancers makes sense in 8 counts.

This 8 count structure is common in salsa, swing, tango, and ballroom.
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8 count makes sense for salsa dancing with the clave having two bars. But I wonder why all the other dances use it, where it doesn't seem useful. I guess bachata uses it because all western teachers came from salsa and they just kept on doing what they knew from salsa. But not sure why in swing as they often use six counts for their figures. Also not sure why in tango (they rarely use counts in class at all, but in theory they also think in 8 counts). No idea about ballroom, if they also use 8 count the question is: why not 4 count?
 
MamboJazz said:
8 count makes sense for salsa dancing with the clave having two bars. But I wonder why all the other dances use it, where it doesn't seem useful. I guess bachata uses it because all western teachers came from salsa and they just kept on doing what they knew from salsa. But not sure why in swing as they often use six counts for their figures. Also not sure why in tango (they rarely use counts in class at all, but in theory they also think in 8 counts). No idea about ballroom, if they also use 8 count the question is: why not 4 count?
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I repeat - bachata and merengue can be easily danced on 4 counts.

It is not just salsa. As I said WCS, Tango, BR all use 8 counts. Whether you call it call and response or question and resolve or tension and release - you need two (four count) bars.

The rest of the dances don’t use 8 count standalone like salsa does. Tango, BR and advanced WCS dancers think in terms of a phrase of multiple 8 count measures. Different people use different way to define bar or measure. A phrase is some multiples of 8 count measures for dancers. In J&J if I am not mistaken the judging also considers if the movement starts on first beat and how dancers are reacting to the whole phrase. In tango there is no restriction on which count you initiate the movement. But when you dance, good tango dancers are marking the phrase (dancing to phrase of multiple eight count measures). Sometimes you can’t put your finger on why you think a dancer is musical or aligned with the music. Often it turns out they are dancing to the phrase rather than single 8 count measure. You can and should dance to the phrase in salsa too.

In BR it is part of training to dance eight counts and I suspect dancing to the phrase is also something they aspire. Most competitive BR is choreographed to an extent. It is not truly improvisational.
 
I always hated the idea of counting 123 567 for Salsa. In my head, counting up to 8 is more like dancing with training wheels and also for pattern monkeys who can't do anything else.
 
Chris_Yannick said:
I always hated the idea of counting 123 567 for Salsa. In my head, counting up to 8 is more like dancing with training wheels and also for pattern monkeys who can't do anything else.
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You are referring to counting aspect itself, not whether you should count 4 count or 8 count.
 
Offbeat said:
You are referring to counting aspect itself, not whether you should count 4 count or 8 count.
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I mean the counting itself.

Coincidentally, all the things I've been training in the last few 5 years or so, whether it be basic technique or musicality, hasn't required me to count.
 
Offbeat said:
I have been saying that for a very long time :)
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It's definitely the thing that trips people up the most. But can be solved by learning a little bit of song structure.

Also maybe add in solo dancing. As a solo dancer, you don't adhere to timing as much as in partner dancing. IMO, solo dancing gets you to fully lock in to the instruments.
 
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Chris_Yannick said:
Also maybe add in solo dancing. As a solo dancer, you don't adhere to timing as much as in partner dancing. IMO, solo dancing gets you to fully lock in to the instruments.
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Not maybe, but of course.

Couple dancing helps since you can feel how better dancers do it. Also some people feel motivated by responsibility. While others shift responsibility on to their partner.
But solo dancing is how you grow yourself.
 
Dear Diary Farm,

I was dancing and asked a a lady to dance, she responded that she only dances on2, and I obliged. Less than 10 Seconds in, she dismisses me saying she was good and that's not on 2. I stood there shocked and could only think, but I play this music! I think I know where the 2 is! I sat down with a dance friend and retold what happened since they saw me come back. They were shocked. I observed her dancing several times later and she never was on the 2. Not once. All her leads were behind the 2 and still enjoying the dance. I was just beside myself. *faints*............lol.
 
Jaime_Pipoca said:
Dear Diary Farm,

I was dancing and asked a a lady to dance, she responded that she only dances on2, and I obliged. Less than 10 Seconds in, she dismisses me saying she was good and that's not on 2. I stood there shocked and could only think, but I play this music! I think I know where the 2 is! I sat down with a dance friend and retold what happened since they saw me come back. They were shocked. I observed her dancing several times later and she never was on the 2. Not once. All her leads were behind the 2 and still enjoying the dance. I was just beside myself. *faints*............lol.
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Meh I've had a few of those. Just smile and wish them a good rest of the night and move on. I find it more amusing than anything else now.
 
I get music teachers every year. I either start following her or let her solo. I get other kind of dance teachers as well, lol. I think ladies get more of them.
 
Jaime_Pipoca said:
I was dancing and asked a a lady to dance, she responded that she only dances on2, and I obliged. Less than 10 Seconds in, she dismisses me saying she was good and that's not on 2. I stood there shocked and could only think, but I play this music! I think I know where the 2 is! I sat down with a dance friend and retold what happened since they saw me come back. They were shocked. I observed her dancing several times later and she never was on the 2. Not once. All her leads were behind the 2 and still enjoying the dance. I was just beside myself. *faints*............lol.
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Had a similar experience recently. That woman was on my DoNotAsk-list for about two years. Quite a good dancer but some weird behaviour, the details I had forgotten overtime. I found myself standing next to her and the next follower about ten meters away so I thought I give it a try again, after two years a reprieve should be possible. She accepted but I regretted my decision to give pardon in the very first second. I started into bachata basic step but she immediately stopped me physically by grabbing my shoulders with both hands, which had never ever happened to me before. It was too loud to talk but she gave sign that she meant I was out of time. So we stood there, me perplexed, and I showed with my fingers the count I was hearing, while she was showing something different. The song was a bit strange so maybe my timing was not correct, but do you stop your leader like this? I wondered if somebody was watching our discussion on the dancefloor. I would have liked to leave immediately but didn't want to cause a scandal. We finally danced, but she's back on my DNA list for the rest of this decade at least.
 
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