Question about timing!

R

rythwin

Changui
Hey guys. I'm new here, so sorry if this is posted in the wrong section.

So me and my instructor go into huge debates, bordering on arguments on the count of particular songs. A couple of examples would be: Buena Vista Social Club - Candela and Hector Lavoe - Me Gente.

This problem usually occurs when the singer starts singing "off time" or "off beat"... So one of us is wrong when it comes to the timing of the 1 of the song.. I'm unable to dance it to the counts he has for the song, so is there some way someone could help me out with this!

And on a side note, I just joined this forum, and already I've looked at 6 different threads! Loving the responses people have and the community seems great!

Cheers from India :)
 
What style of salsa are you dancing?
In Lavoe's example it's more appropriate to dance on2 (which feels off beat)
In Candela's case the son step is more appropriate.
 
rythwin said:
on1.. but that shouldn't matter either way, because what I identify as the 1-2-3, he says is the 5-6-7 :|
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I disagree!
1-some songs are not meant to be danced on1.
2-You should listen to insruments instead of the signer.
a good reference to follow is the slap of the bongos which most of the time falls on 2 and 6
 
rythwin said:
This problem usually occurs when the singer starts singing "off time" or "off beat"... So one of us is wrong when it comes to the timing of the 1 of the song.. I'm unable to dance it to the counts he has for the song, so is there some way someone could help me out with this!
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Learn his way in class, dance how you want at the party. The initial discomfort means you can learn something. :)

For me the breaking experience was rueda class on5 with latin jazz music. After that night salsa is not the same any more.
 
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Smejmoon said:
Learn his way in class, dance how you want at the party. The initial discomfort means you can learn something. :)

For me the breaking experience was rueda class on5 with latin jazz music. After that night salsa is not the same any more.
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Well, isn't it just that either the instructor or he is right? I would not trust a instructor who says that the 5 is the 1.
 
rythwin said:
Hey guys. I'm new here, so sorry if this is posted in the wrong section.

So me and my instructor go into huge debates, bordering on arguments on the count of particular songs. A couple of examples would be: Buena Vista Social Club - Candela and Hector Lavoe - Me Gente.

This problem usually occurs when the singer starts singing "off time" or "off beat"... So one of us is wrong when it comes to the timing of the 1 of the song.. I'm unable to dance it to the counts he has for the song, so is there some way someone could help me out with this!

And on a side note, I just joined this forum, and already I've looked at 6 different threads! Loving the responses people have and the community seems great!

Cheers from India :)
Click to expand...

I know what you mean about Mi Gente. If you only listen to the vocals you'll get confused. The piano shows better where the 1 is.

As for Candela, it does a similar thing with the vocals but I think it also changes at least once, but I haven't had the time to listen to it carefully.

Having said this, I would also advise you to try and dance the way your instructor says. This is his lesson. It is also good for you to learn to be more flexible about 1 and 5. We've all learned to dance by this convention but in reality it is little more than just a convention. If, for example, you learn dancing on2 you'll have to start going back on 1. Except that there is a sub-style where they dance it the other way round. I hope you get my point.

The most important thing is to know where the 1 is. The direction to start is a convention so it's good to be able to follow it but we should also be open minded about it and not follow it blindly whatever the circumstances.
 
Kading said:
Well, isn't it just that either the instructor or he is right? I would not trust a instructor who says that the 5 is the 1.
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You'd be amazed. I once had to explain to an "instructor" how in the same song 1 can become 5. Me and a student of his had to demonstrate with one of the songs used in the class and count for him. I'm happy to report that he got it :) And I have to give him the credit that he was willing to.

But surely rather than trying to correct somebody during their own class, isn't it better not to go to the class of somebody you don't trust? There must be better ones around.
 
Yeah by default you shouldn't debate with the instructor, but I wouldn't trust an instructor who can't differentiate 1 from 5. I mean come on, no one with such low level of understanding of the music should be teaching. So you might want to consider trying to find someone who knows his stuff :)
 
Kading said:
Well, isn't it just that either the instructor or he is right? I would not trust a instructor who says that the 5 is the 1.
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Well I left my first salsa school because teaching did not go well with music. I did not learn anything. Luckily I found much better teacher. Now looking back 4 years, I probably was wrong about 1/5 back then. I've left classes many times because teachers did not do what they preached. Did not learn anything in those cases. :) One time I bite it and learned something. :)
 
Haha, I like my instructor, and the debates happen out of class timings.. We have them on our time. So changing instructors at this time is not an option. And considering he is the best in the city, I prefer to learn with him.

Okay, in Candela, for example, the songs start with some strings playing a pattern. And the main confusion happens around say 3:30 into the song..
Should I use the same pattern of strings that appears in the start of the song, to identify the one? (One being when the pattern starts)
 
rythwin said:
Haha, I like my instructor, and the debates happen out of class timings.. We have them on our time. So changing instructors at this time is not an option. And considering he is the best in the city, I prefer to learn with him.

Okay, in Candela, for example, the songs start with some strings playing a pattern. And the main confusion happens around say 3:30 into the song..
Should I use the same pattern of strings that appears in the start of the song, to identify the one? (One being when the pattern starts)
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To know.. there are TWO bars of music..each counted, 1,2,3,4.

teachers differentiate the 1st bar, by counting 1,2,3 and the 2nd bar 5,6,7 (or.. 2,3,4--6.7.8 ) .

That sequence CAN change, thru a clave change in the song,, that, is not, however common.;It takes a very experienced "ear" to note that change. BUT, if one arbritarily changes the sequence , then that is what may cause confusion.

Experienced dancers tend to have musical " licenece " when they dance, which may look confusing to others, but, its done with a purpose .
So.. its good to question things you dont agree with or understand.. and welcome to the best salsa forum on the planet !!:)
 
terence said:
Son breaks on "2"
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Very true. My comment was particularly in relation to the two songs presented as example. The point I was trying to make is that not all songs can be danced on1 and in my opinion Candela is the worst song to dance on1. Maybe Mi gente is manageable but not Candela.
 
SalsaGipsy said:
You'd be amazed. I once had to explain to an "instructor" how in the same song 1 can become 5. Me and a student of his had to demonstrate with one of the songs used in the class and count for him. I'm happy to report that he got it :) And I have to give him the credit that he was willing to.
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I can guess who that is. This is from before you went to your present locality, and he has 3 letters in his name?
 
rythwin said:
Okay, in Candela, for example, the songs start with some strings playing a pattern. And the main confusion happens around say 3:30 into the song..
Should I use the same pattern of strings that appears in the start of the song, to identify the one? (One being when the pattern starts)
Click to expand...
I don't really understand what causes confusion at 3:30, but the strings (tres/guitar) patterns don't change over song. So you can use that fror checking.

In later salsa music the same role is played by piano. It does not change over the "Mi Gente", as far as I checked.
 
TwoCentsTipper said:
The point I was trying to make is that not all songs can be danced on1 and in my opinion Candela is the worst song to dance on1.

.
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More to the point.. ALL songs may be danced on 1.. that, in the opinion of many, is incorrect . To my mind,dance is always about preference, in style and substance.

Do some songs seem more 2 than 1 ?.. yep, do I need to adhere to that specific format ?.. no. Even in Son ,which is invariably on 2.,there are some who recognise a more distinct 3, upon which to break .

Fair to say; not all music is composed in the exact same manner, Differences, sometimes, are subtle. We all tend to listen, and sometimes may hear , different interpretations that we respond to, in a different manner than others.

The "1" and "2" argument has gone on for multi yrs . I Doubt it will ever resolve .
 
rythwin said:
I'm unable to dance it to the counts he has for the song, so is there some way someone could help me out with this!
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I'll try... I think there are two solutions:
1) You work on your ability to dance to his numbers. It is an easy-to-learn system because every time he says a number you're supposed to put a foot on the floor.
2) You ignore what he's counting
 
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