Principles behind follower movements(footwork)

A

Ashwin Jain

Inspired by MacMoto's and other's wonderful responses on my previous thread -
hxxp://www . salsaforums.com/showthread.php?p=122720

once again ON1 ...

Are followers having standard set of footworks/movements? if so, can you please list what are they. Or else if they can be lead through non standard footworks with proper timing and support from the lead?And if so, i m wondering what are the principles behind follower footwork. For eg with right timing of lead (may be a pull at 4) can we smoothly lead the followers to move forward 3 steps on count 1,2,3.

as another example -
hxxp://www . youtube.com/watch?v=QLcZUlo1Prc
the move at 2:00 appears to have not so common follower footwork. Can we lead girls who do not know the move to do it?

I hope my question makes sense...

Thanks,
Ashwin


ps: to kill urls i have replaced "http" with "hxxp" and adding space after www .
 
:)

Lots of good questions – I can’t answer the ‘list’ query and I’m not sure it’s possible (are there too many? Maybe there are only six?) But I can attempt to address the leading followers through non-standard footwork query.

In general, unless the footwork is heavily choreographed, I’d say it is possible to lead followers this way and the move you describe (three forward steps) is certainly achievable. The main issue is that inexperienced dancers don’t like to be taken out of their comfort zone and when you lead something out of the ordinary they often get thrown out of sync (depending on how it was led, for your three steps move, a novice follower might attempt to turn). Experienced followers are able to react quickly to subtle leads and are also more able to deal with things they haven’t been shown/taught – if you led travel, without rotation, they will travel without rotating.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to in the video – to me it looks like standard footwork for an inside turn and I didn’t see anything especially out of the ordinary (for an intermediate/advanced lesson?). I guess if you’ve been dancing a while your perspective changes…I remember being taught the CBL with inside turn and thinking ‘wait a minute – that’s an anti-clockwise turn on the 567, I thought the rule was you can only do clockwise turns then?’

I suppose there are certain stylistic conventions in salsa that a lot of followers add to appropriate moves (mambo jazz, that tango leg sweep thingy, body roll after titanic). All are so common that you don’t even have to lead them.

As an aside, I was dancing with a very experienced lady last night and when I led mambo jazz, she gave me such a world weary look – it was like “here we go again, how many of these will I have to do this time”…
 
Thanks Andrew. About the video , yeah it might be perspective : the big step by the lady at 6-7 (not turning at the spot) makes it looks like a 360 done in 3 counts. I think , with your perspective, it might be leadable. Not sure until i try.

Ya i m trying to break those rules. But in a way that surprises ladies in a pleasant way, because it was so smooth until they realize what happened.
 
Ashwin Jain said:
Are followers having standard set of footworks/movements? if so, can you please list what are they.
Click to expand...
I have had several teachers drum into me that one of the most important things for the follower to do is to keep stepping right-left-right, left-right-left no matter what's happening upstairs. This is true whether you dance on1, on2 or Cuban. So that's pretty much the standard set of footworks covered. Whether the follower steps forward, backward or pivoting is determined by the lead (or lack thereof, in which case the follower should do the basic step (unless the leader is in the way)). The exception to this rule is multiple spins, and I explained this in the other thread.

Ashwin Jain said:
For eg with right timing of lead (may be a pull at 8 ) can we smoothly lead the followers to move forward 3 steps on count 1,2,3.
Click to expand...
Yes :) start the lead at 8 and continue pulling through 1-2-3.


Ashwin Jain said:
as another example -
hxxp://www . youtube.com/watch?v=QLcZUlo1Prc
the move at 2:00 appears to have not so common follower footwork. Can we lead girls who do not know the move to do it?
Click to expand...
I've had a look at the vid, and the follower's footwork looks similar to what happens in 360 CBLs and copas. In both cases the lead causes a quick change of direction for the follower so that when the follower replaces her right foot, the left foot is already out forward (but without her weight on it). On the 5 she just shifts her weight to the left foot and continues with the basic step.

Note:
Both the copa and the 360 are tricky moves for the follower because of the quick directional change involved, so it will be quite hard to lead the move in the clip on beginners who are not used to these moves. The timing of the lead is also crucial (there are threads on how to lead the copa and 360 here on SF).
 
MacMoto said:
Note:
Both the copa and the 360 are tricky moves for the follower because of the quick directional change involved, so it will be quite hard to lead the move in the clip on beginners who are not used to these moves. The timing of the lead is also crucial (there are threads on how to lead the copa and 360 here on SF).
Click to expand...

Is copa taught in beginner class series? I seen it drilled into followers early on. Yet I come across many advance beginner/intermediate followers who are crappy at copa.
 
Could be that it's difficult for the beginner leaders, so they don't do it, so the girls don't get the practice, and it escapes their minds... then when the leaders gain the experience and/or confidence to give it a crack, the girls haven't had the practice executing it?
 
Hi AJ

Yeah that was a cool move! Next time I can marry a slow song with a...brave follower...I will give it a try. For me personally I would have trouble leading the 567 part

Here are a few points I noticed from watching the video...several times :)

- Like MacMoto said the followers part begins like a 360 CBL / Copa footwork.

- Notice Oliver is perpendicular to his partner by 7 of the preceding measure (kind of like the 3 of a regular CBL). He has already cleared the path.

- Also, by seven of the preceding measure, he plants his weight over his right side. He won't transfer his weight to the left side until the 6 of the next measure. It looks like he does this by pushing off his right leg on 5 with the weight falling onto his left on 6.

- Notice the position of his hand on 1,2,3. On 1 his hand is closer to the center of her back. The hand slides over to her left shoulder blade by 3.

Like I mentioned earlier the 5,6,7 part is where I would have to experiment.
Since the woman's 5 is almost in place, in order for the follow to be able to walk around you the trick is making her take a large step on the 6.
Initially I would probably settle with sending the woman back to the starting point, and doing something simple.
 
:D
Ashwin Jain said:
as another example -
hxxp://www . youtube.com/watch?v=QLcZUlo1Prc
the move at 2:00 appears to have not so common follower footwork. Can we lead girls who do not know the move to do it?
Click to expand...
Just managed to get a look at the vid.

The first combo, apart from the 360, I'd expected an average follower of 6-9 monmth experience to be able to follow it.
The 360 whilst it looks simple in terms of footwork but is challenging to lead and follow well due to the control of body weight that is required to execute well and at speed.

The second combo was very nice. Whilst in terms of footwork it's not that complex and infact I'd expect most dancers of 9mths or so experience to have it drilled. However what would make it challenging for many followers is that the footwork is lead in what I would call 'unorthodox' or 'unusual' ways. Please note I don't mean incorrect. Due to the fact that some of the leads are unusual I'd say it's not an easy tp to lead well with followers of average experience who'd never come across it.

With a good follower you can lead anything that's leadable whether they've come across it before or not. That's the whole idea of lead and follow. Sometimes if the lead is unusual and the follower has never felt a lead like it before, it might take a second attempt. Normally when I've had this happen the follower asks me to do it again - not always that easy cos most of the time I don't lead combinations by pre thinking them and once they're done they've gone and I've moved on :D
 
DaveFUK said:
Normally when I've had this happen the follower asks me to do it again - not always that easy cos most of the time I don't lead combinations by pre thinking them and once they're done they've gone and I've moved on :D
Click to expand...

Heh yes

She: "Oh I see! That was neat, do it again!"
Me: "What was it?"
 
Echoing the advice that the most important thing followers need to do is just step.

If you are in way over your head in a dance, but keep stepping - you'll be way better off. Once you are on the wrong foot, things can get ugly quickly.

PS it took me five years to figure this out.
 
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