porting over on-1 patterns to on-2/ET2

[trophy4u]

i been dancing LA on-1 for 3-4 years and enjoy it very much. i have just begun to try to pick up on-2 here in LA [yes the alone salsero]. my on-1 has really come into its own and i can say i think look good and entertaining out there. my on-1 calls for bigger strides and other little things here and there which i notice is hard if not impposible to execute on-2.

question for somebody who has made the transition to on-2, i was wondering if somebody can tell me if all patterns from on-1 can be applied to on-2? or do i have to accept that i cannot apply everything to on-2? i am hoping this is just a case of on-1 anticipation and timing getting in the way where i have not truly adopted on-2. any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[MacMoto]

i been dancing LA on-1 for 3-4 years and enjoy it very much. i have just begun to try to pick up on-2 here in LA [yes the alone salsero]. my on-1 has really come into its own and i can say i think look good and entertaining out there. my on-1 calls for bigger strides and other little things here and there which i notice is hard if not impposible to execute on-2.

question for somebody who has made the transition to on-2, i was wondering if somebody can tell me if all patterns from on-1 can be applied to on-2? or do i have to accept that i cannot apply everything to on-2? i am hoping this is just a case of on-1 anticipation and timing getting in the way where i have not truly adopted on-2. any input would be greatly appreciated.

I'm sure this question came up somewhere before, but I can't find the thread...

My opinion is that all on1 moves can be converted to on2 with some adjustment. You may need to adjust the timing of the lead, you may lose a beat here, gain a beat there and so on, and moves may feel different because of that, but I don't think there are on1 moves that cannot be ported to on2. The same goes for converting on2 moves to on1.

However, when LA style on1 moves are converted to on2, they will probably still feel more LA style than NY style, even though the timing is on2. See this post from Azzey:
http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=65062#65062

 

[sweavo]

What Mac said. Looking at the math, everything can be converted BUT:

If you base everything around the break step rather than the count, you get this:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 
L r l . R l r . <- ON1 (starting on 1)
L r . l R l . r <- ET2 (starting on 6)
6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5

So you get a change in emphasis, e.g. on an in-and-out, on1 it goes "Break-and-she's in ... 5-6 she's out" whereas on 2 it's "break and (floaty) ... she's in-she's out (floaty)".

Since it sounds like you've got your on1 nice and solid I think it will just take a while of doing it on2 and being receptive to the idea that the emphasis changes. I find myself using different repertoire on the two different counts because the moves feel so different.

 

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

i've never yet found an On1 move that can't be danced on ET2. Or Power2 or PR2 for that matter. Even Cuban swirl twirly stuff can be danced with ET2 timing if the follower understands what you're doing, though admittedly it does feel odd.
I think for the most part, I just transpose the lead I'd use On1 by 5 counts to ET2 and let the follower get on with it.
If you want a follower's opinion on whether this works, ask MacMoto - she's danced ET2 with me (slot style) while I've been using this principle.

 

[trophy4u]

guys, thank you for all the input and i think day by day as i read up every bit of info here it is making more sense to me. but classroom is always different than performing in the field. although i have not actually went out and did all this yet, it is feeling much more smooth and natural.

it is clicking more and more and i am going to offer how i was able to decipher this puzzle. again this is only my experience and will be confusing and limited to others. what i just found out after reading your posts and then going to the office restroom to practice is, patterns are the same, i feel the same rhythmical push and pull and the weights are emphasized on the same beats [for me i feel 3 and 7] but the major difference is it is with the other leg when dancing on-1 as opposed to on-2. these go for the 'light' steps too, lights would now be on the other leg when doing the same pattern.

my problem was i was trying to emphasize the weight on the same leg with on-1 and on-2. so trying to use the actual on-1 footwork to dance on-2 was my problem. so in a CBL, my weight would be on the L on beat 3 while on-1 but in on-2 i was trying to apply this weight on the 1 beat since i thought it was the 'same' step. what i mean by same step was i thought you can implant a step-1-to-4 on-1 pattern sequence into a step-6-to-1 on-2 slot because i thought they are in essence the 'same step'. but this is not the case. weights are different!

instead the weight needed to be on the R leg while on-2 on beat 7 [beat 7 and 3 are at the same pattern progression point in time], and beat 1 while on-2 is rather a 'light' step. i was interpreting beat 4 on-2 to be the same as beat 7 while on-1 which is not. because of this i was trying to apply my on-1 weights which do not work! instead what i can and should do is use the body rhythm of on-1 but this needs to dance to the footwork of on-2.

i hope i make sense here but this is how i understand it and it seems to feel right to me.

 

[Flex]

You'll find that some moves work better i.e. seem more natural On1, others On2 but you can dance them all, pretty much. The main thing is that the lady's momentum is different at a different stage of the bar. So you have to adjust your timing and direction to fit that - with many moves you can't simply transpose from one beat to another without such adjustments. If you're trying to work things out by yourself, start by doing the lady's steps and you'll see how to transpose the leading.

Followers often say that they feel they have more time On2 - I think this is mainly because there is a bit more time for the business end of the move bought at the expense of a bit less time for the lead in many moves.

 

[MacMoto]

Followers often say that they feel they have more time On2 - I think this is mainly because there is a bit more time for the business end of the move bought at the expense of a bit less time for the lead in many moves.

Interesting - do leaders generally feel they have less time when leading on2 then?

In terms of "more time for followers on2" - I feel there's more time to prep on2 for spinning and also coming out of spins. Not sure if I feel I have more time elsewhere. At Salsology on2 leaders seem to be into mid-move direction changes in a big way, and that makes me feel I have less time/space to relax, but I don't know if it's a timing thing (on2 vs. on1) or leading style/preference thing ("salsology style"?).

 

[Salsamakossa]

MacMoto,

For some moves, it is not an issue, but depending on what needs to be done, it can often be a bit of a rush with on2 moves in particular.

Followers often say that they feel they have more time On2 - I think this is mainly because there is a bit more time for the business end of the move bought at the expense of a bit less time for the lead in many moves.

Interesting - do leaders generally feel they have less time when leading on2 then?

In terms of "more time for followers on2" - I feel there's more time to prep on2 for spinning and also coming out of spins. Not sure if I feel I have more time elsewhere. At Salsology on2 leaders seem to be into mid-move direction changes in a big way, and that makes me feel I have less time/space to relax, but I don't know if it's a timing thing (on2 vs. on1) or leading style/preference thing ("salsology style"?).

 

[SnowDancer]

As others have pointed out, most moves are simply shifted by 4 beats. One exception I can think of is the copa, which you have to learn differently:

On1: 1-3 - Break, end up in the copa on 3. Spin woman out on 5-7.

On2: 5-7 - Break, start to pull on 7. 1-3 - End up in copa on 1, spin out on 3.

I found On2 to be more challenging, since you only hold the copa for 1 beat.

 

[Salsamakossa]

Snowdancer,

Excellent example. Actually On2, you spin the lady out on count 2, not count 3, which is what makes the execution so quick.

As others have pointed out, most moves are simply shifted by 4 beats. One exception I can think of is the copa, which you have to learn differently:

On1: 1-3 - Break, end up in the copa on 3. Spin woman out on 5-7.

On2: 5-7 - Break, start to pull on 7. 1-3 - End up in copa on 1, spin out on 3.

I found On2 to be more challenging, since you only hold the copa for 1 beat.

 

[sac]

Snowdancer,

Excellent example. Actually On2, you spin the lady out on count 2, not count 3, which is what makes the execution so quick.

As others have pointed out, most moves are simply shifted by 4 beats. One exception I can think of is the copa, which you have to learn differently:

On1: 1-3 - Break, end up in the copa on 3. Spin woman out on 5-7.

On2: 5-7 - Break, start to pull on 7. 1-3 - End up in copa on 1, spin out on 3.

I found On2 to be more challenging, since you only hold the copa for 1 beat.

guys, is it fair enough if i say that on on2, most turns are led at the count of 2?even for multiple spins?

 

[NYguero]

guys, is it fair enough if i say that on on2, most turns are led at the count of 2?even for multiple spins?

They happen on the count of 1.
________

 

[rjoe92057]

Followers often say that they feel they have more time On2 - I think this is mainly because there is a bit more time for the business end of the move bought at the expense of a bit less time for the lead in many moves.

Interesting - do leaders generally feel they have less time when leading on2 then?

In terms of "more time for followers on2" - I feel there's more time to prep on2 for spinning and also coming out of spins. Not sure if I feel I have more time elsewhere. At Salsology on2 leaders seem to be into mid-move direction changes in a big way, and that makes me feel I have less time/space to relax, but I don't know if it's a timing thing (on2 vs. on1) or leading style/preference thing ("salsology style"?).

Both leaders and followers should feel they have more time On2.

On2 gives you more time because the pause is at the end of a movement not in the middle. Let's take the basic as an example. The pause is on beats 4 and 8. On2, the pause is at the end of the rock step. Since you have completed any forward or backward movement and are in place/stationary during the rock step, adding the pause after that extends the time you are in one place which is why it feels and looks slow here. On1, the pause occurs while you are moving forward or backward. You slow down the rate at which you are moving to account for the pause beat but you are still moving. You then take the rock step in place after which you have no pause and must step forward or backward immediately.

This is also why On2 looks different and looks slower because there is more contrast between quick and slow.

As far as the mid-move direction change thing. A lot of that will make the dance feel faster. That is why I say do it in moderation. You also have to realize many leaders are abrupt in their mid-move direction changes. If done correctly there should be a slow down and then a smooth change in direction. The leader must also take advantage of the correct weight transfer ie they must execute the next move while you are on the right foot. It's like driving fast and jerking the steering wheel to take a cornor vs slowing down a little before approaching a cornor and then smoothly turning the steering wheel. A good leader will use beats 4 and 8 to slow down and make a smooth change in direction.

 

[MacMoto]

guys, is it fair enough if i say that on on2, most turns are led at the count of 2?even for multiple spins?

They happen on the count of 1.

Or even on the 8 if you want to fit in more than a double/triple. The follower preps on the 7 so you can pretty much start anytime after that.

 

[terence]

Followers often say that they feel they have more time On2 - I think this is mainly because there is a bit more time for the business end of the move bought at the expense of a bit less time for the lead in many moves.

Principally-- the amount of time is the same--1-2, q,q,---2,3, q.q..

Ryhthm consistency, is knowing how and when to change it ,for specific reasons, and usually is the realm of the advanced dancer---- the majority have enough on their " plate " with a standard qqs sequencing .

The allocation given to each note (1 beat each q ) is identical-- unless - we intentionally change things for accent . That of course , is improbable in the early stages of learning .

 

[OneCentSalsero]

Whenever i have an on1 pattern that i wanna do on2, i just mute it and start counting on my timing when the lady starts going forward... they all seem to work.

 

[sweavo]

Both leaders and followers should feel they have more time On2.

uh oh! you just walked wide-eyed into a custard-pie fight!

I agree with you, but have also to point out that while some parts (notably the spin-prep) get more spacious, others (e.g. the copa) get a lot tighter. But we don't say you have "less time" on2 in that case, we say it's "snappier"

 

[Flex]

Both leaders and followers should feel they have more time On2.

uh oh! you just walked wide-eyed into a custard-pie fight!

I agree with you, but have also to point out that while some parts (notably the spin-prep) get more spacious, others (e.g. the copa) get a lot tighter. But we don't say you have "less time" on2 in that case, we say it's "snappier"

LOL

I find the copa On2 seems less crisp than On1 ! Doing it On2 I feel I have more time, indeed that the copa is one of those moves / steps, along with the mambo jazz step, that feel more natural On2 than they do On1. (I say this even as someone whose overall preference is On1).

As T2 says, there is just the same time overall in a pair of bars, and if the same moves are completed in those two bars On1 or On2 then the time is just the same. But how the time is divided up is different, and I do find that with some moves there's less time for the lead, more time for the follow, and on other moves it can be the other way round.

(Hmnnnn.... maybe it's the first part of the copa that seems crisper to me On1..... the second part - exit from the copa ... might seem crisper On2....hmnnnn)

 

[terence]

(Hmnnnn.... maybe it's the first part of the copa that seems crisper to me On1..... the second part - exit from the copa ... might seem crisper On2....hmnnnn)

Thats where " dance " really starts to get interesting-- playing with the timing !

 

[Salsamakossa]

Rjoe92057,

Lol, what is your rock step again?

Followers often say that they feel they have more time On2 - I think this is mainly because there is a bit more time for the business end of the move bought at the expense of a bit less time for the lead in many moves.

Interesting - do leaders generally feel they have less time when leading on2 then?

In terms of "more time for followers on2" - I feel there's more time to prep on2 for spinning and also coming out of spins. Not sure if I feel I have more time elsewhere. At Salsology on2 leaders seem to be into mid-move direction changes in a big way, and that makes me feel I have less time/space to relax, but I don't know if it's a timing thing (on2 vs. on1) or leading style/preference thing ("salsology style"?).

Both leaders and followers should feel they have more time On2.

On2 gives you more time because the pause is at the end of a movement not in the middle. Let's take the basic as an example. The pause is on beats 4 and 8. On2, the pause is at the end of the rock step. Since you have completed any forward or backward movement and are in place/stationary during the rock step, adding the pause after that extends the time you are in one place which is why it feels and looks slow here. On1, the pause occurs while you are moving forward or backward. You slow down the rate at which you are moving to account for the pause beat but you are still moving. You then take the rock step in place after which you have no pause and must step forward or backward immediately.

This is also why On2 looks different and looks slower because there is more contrast between quick and slow.

As far as the mid-move direction change thing. A lot of that will make the dance feel faster. That is why I say do it in moderation. You also have to realize many leaders are abrupt in their mid-move direction changes. If done correctly there should be a slow down and then a smooth change in direction. The leader must also take advantage of the correct weight transfer ie they must execute the next move while you are on the right foot. It's like driving fast and jerking the steering wheel to take a cornor vs slowing down a little before approaching a cornor and then smoothly turning the steering wheel. A good leader will use beats 4 and 8 to slow down and make a smooth change in direction.