People who are in cliques, what goes on in cliques? Do you like it, why are you in it?

[Chris_Yannick]

I can probably tolerate it more if it's salsa or swing but I just find it kind of funny and also confusing that they'd be posting themselves body rolling, zouk rolling everyday all day, it's not like there's any variations either. It's literally roll a, b, c over and over again. What do you think of this?

I have friends who do this. They are mostly trying to increase their social media presence. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Bachata or Salsa. I find Salsa videos of the same person just as boring as Bachata videos and so when I see the same people over and over again appear on my feeds, I usually just block them. I am not a fan of watching people I know social dance, but it’s a way to network with other dancers and strenghen connections.

What would you say to people who feel pressured or feel like they're developing "relationships or friendships" in the scene? Especially the ones who are new? I'm not one to influence but I often see my friends in a lot of socials simply because they've been told to. And that it feels like they owe something or see that there's this bond when I think most of the time, the guy just wants to get in their pants or they may also just be lost themselves.

I see developing friendships as something that happens organically. I’m not sure why people would feel pressured into making friends. Do people really feel this way?

However, I remember having this experience in beginner classes where after class we would all go out for drinks and that to me felt forced and awkward. It was organized by one very vocal member of the group. But I always felt like I was being pressured in a “if you don’t come hang out with us you will be punished for it” kind of way.

Since then I’ve always been on my own when it comes to making friends in dancing, but by then I had clearer goals in mind than most of my classmates, who were not as serious as I was. Nowadays I make it clear how much Salsa means to me and that draws like-minded people in closer.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Unless their reason is to meet people. I can see how it can benefit them but I think this fizzles out in the long term. There's only so much sparkles one can get and give when they're new to the scene. I still think getting into the scene purely because of people or friends or relationships formed and just solely for this is the wrong reason. I think going in it for yourself and growing from that is a better way.

I’ve been in my current scene for around 10 years. I’ve seen long-time dancers simply vanish without a trace. Usually there is a reason (like having a child) but the frequency in which someone just offs and disappears is alarmingly high. It’s possible they still danced at home and love Salsa, but when I talk to the majority of people who took a long break and came back, they always say that they hadn’t danced at all during that time. It’s as if there was no reason to dance if not going out dancing to meet with others. So I assume the people who don’t come back don’t dance at all anymore either. Many people I thought were passionate about dancing…simply don’t dance anymore.

What do you think are the future rewards? Being healthy?? Maybe, if not for the sleep deprivation and late nights. It might be to one's benefit, especially if you don't drink and view salsa as a kind of holistic nightly exercise. Even so, I've witnessed people use this to create lifelong bonds, broaden their networks, or even land jobs, but this is only 000.1% and I believe the key is to choose the proper circumstances or events.

I don’t see night-time dancing in its current form as a very healthy form of exercise, especially for older people with creaky joints. I know a few older people (older than me) who still dance a lot and I applaud them, but for most people around my age, have already weak joints and can’t stay out as late due to fatigue and have started to tone down their late night dancing. I don’t see many long-term rewards for strictly social dancers that still appeal to their vanity. But for people who want to continue dancing into old age, there are definitely rewards if one can manage to balance it with their other activities. I still think dancing is a great way to be encouraged to live an active lifestyle where you continue to be mentally and physically stimulated well into old age.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

So then it's just figuring out or adjusting one's own endgame really. Yeah there's a money cap/ceiling to being an intermediate dancer, your end-game could be selling materials, or doing what Magna does. I doubt anyone can reach the levels of Ataca or those pro dancers that travel and teach, host events. Most of them started decades ago. Though there's still this new age bachata movement that I'm seeing, I guess another endgame is literally finding someone you're matched with. Then put dancing aside or you two continuously get better and do what Ataca and his SO do. Or just be that lone dancer who uses this as just an extra or occupational activity. And since it's art like you say, it's just a giving type of thing. The instructors or people who make money from it get better followers when they just see it as a give and no take sort of thing. But yeah, I guess the ideal endgame for most is finding someone you're compatible with and then going from there. As for being in cliques, I'm not long enough in my scene to see what happens later but I'm pretty sure they fizzle out or develop good bonds later on.

I don’t see any endgame in dancing unless I’m in it to make a living, which I’m not. Dancing is something that is a part of me. Whether I meet someone or not. Whether I go out or not. It is still going to be a big part of who I am.

Dancing gives me enough reason to live a sedentary-free lifestyle, which no other activities have been able to do, including regular exercise. Through dancing, I have found ways to incorporate other movement disciplines into my daily life that will benefit me in the long-term.

For others who want to earn money off of dancing, it will be a hard life, and honestly I don’t know anyone who can do it unless they are the owner of their own business and is quite successful at managing it. The forever teacher or social dancer or artist will struggle finding ways to live off of dancing.

 

[Yogalholic]

I've joined a salsa clique but there is a strict set of rules that we have to follow religiously and the first rule is we don't talk about the clique

Well seriously I don't think cliquey people would post on a salsa board

 

[artimalid]

Also this. Even though many people do enter the scene just for the people and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I’ve found people who stick around do so for other reasons.
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I'm willing to guess, most of their reason is that they like someone or plan on dating in the scene. There have only been other genuine reasons I've come across, like for one of my now friends going to socials because his physical therapist thinks it's good for him. What do you think is the main motivator for people who have been sticking around day and night?

Going back to my first sentence here, I do know my regulars and that they speak covertly with other regulars on who's who and who to hit on or to leave alone. My friend who just got into the scene would tell me how this guy was asking why she's single, she didn't care about the questions and played along because his dancing was good and he was teaching her on the spot, she came to know how regulars like him keep tabs on everyone and speak to other regulars on who to leave alone or not. Honestly, I think it's a bit disgusting too, like they have a monopoly on the social dynamics of a social, and that what makes it cliquey

 

[artimalid]

I have friends who do this. They are mostly trying to increase their social media presence. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Bachata or Salsa. I find Salsa videos of the same person just as boring as Bachata videos and so when I see the same people over and over again appear on my feeds, I usually just block them. I am not a fan of watching people I know social dance, but it’s a way to network with other dancers and strenghen connections.



I see developing friendships as something that happens organically. I’m not sure why people would feel pressured into making friends. Do people really feel this way?

However, I remember having this experience in beginner classes where after class we would all go out for drinks and that to me felt forced and awkward. It was organized by one very vocal member of the group. But I always felt like I was being pressured in a “if you don’t come hang out with us you will be punished for it” kind of way.

Since then I’ve always been on my own when it comes to making friends in dancing, but by then I had clearer goals in mind than most of my classmates, who were not as serious as I was. Nowadays I make it clear how much Salsa means to me and that draws like-minded people in closer.

Just trying to reverse engineer how one goes through their social dance journey. I think there is a pattern that is supported and in which you've described perfectly right.

I think beginners or dancers who are in their first 2 years, will feel pressure from other peers. But after some time, they either discover that it's still their own journey and that the people who invite them either want them for a relationship of some sort, I know the guys in my scene are relentless. Not saying these are bad things, but there's always this pattern of enormous, grandiose excitement followed by either exclusivity or the presence of a small group of chosen friends later on. Others will simply go to socials alone. Less serious dancers, I suppose, will still go and likely talk more compared to just dance. But there definitely is a pattern.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

What do you think is the main motivator for people who have been sticking around day and night?

Salsa is pretty hard, so if someone sticks around long enough, there’s a good chance they are doing it for self-improvement. Even though I’ve known guys/gals who did it quite consistently for a year or two then left once they found a partner. The ones that come back afer a long break tend to gain a clearer perspective on dancing.

I have also taken long breaks (the longest being around 8 months where I tried to quit due to a break up) only to come back rejuvenated. After each break I took from Salsa, ranging from 3-6 months, I became more determined.

But remember I am measuring this over years, so motivations tend to flatten out over time. A year off is merely a bump in the road. Whereas for a beginner, even a month without dancing can be considered a long break.

Going back to my first sentence here, I do know my regulars and that they speak covertly with other regulars on who's who and who to hit on or to leave alone. My friend who just got into the scene would tell me how this guy was asking why she's single, she didn't care about the questions and played along because his dancing was good and he was teaching her on the spot, she came to know how regulars like him keep tabs on everyone and speak to other regulars on who to leave alone or not. Honestly, I think it's a bit disgusting too, like they have a monopoly on the social dynamics of a social, and that what makes it cliquey

To my knowledge, gossip like that doesn’t exist here. In my scene, nobody cares if you’re taken or not. If you come out to dance, you are doing so because you want to. In some instances, people don’t get enough attention even in their relationships and use dancing as a way to get noticed by the opposite gender. I don’t know what goes on in the private lives of the people I dance with and don’t really care either. And the ones who do tell me about their relationships, it isn’t very pretty. Many people use dancing as a safe space. It’s a place where they can leave their troubles at the door. That also means finding validation in the form of short-term relationships, which I consider part and parcel of being active in the social dancing scene.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I think beginners or dancers who are in their first 2 years, will feel pressure from other peers. But after some time, they either discover that it's still their own journey and that the people who invite them either want them for a relationship of some sort, I know the guys in my scene are relentless. Not saying these are bad things, but there's always this pattern of enormous, grandiose excitement followed by either exclusivity or the presence of a small group of chosen friends later on. Others will simply go to socials alone. Less serious dancers, I suppose, will still go and likely talk more compared to just dance. But there definitely is a pattern.

I know people who date around in the dancing scene for years and years, which of course causes all kinds of awkwardness, but people get over it eventually. If they can’t, well, that’s their problem. I’ve been scorned too by people I used to date in the scene, and I’m sure I have scorned a few in my time. Though it’s always the case in a break-up that the person who is less serious about dancing, is the one who will take their leave.

It’s a harsh world out there. Salsa is no exception. This is what I’ve learned over 15 years of dancing. The things I have under my control is my ability to dance and to improve and that is what I focus on.

It’s hard to reverse engineer lifepaths of people you meet through Salsa. Some people who I didn’t expect to last long, have lasted the longest. Others that were so keen in the beginning and were dancing every day of the week, fizzled out. It’s not really a topic I give attention to since I’ve been around long enough and have seen enough that almost nothing surprises me.

 

[Smejmoon]

Downside of being in clique is that you have to say hello to and chat with a lot of people before you can relax and dance.
Upside is that in larger events you don't really need to invite anybody in first day. Just dance with people who invite you and you'll have a good time.

 

[Offbeat]

Downside of being in clique is that you have to say hello to and chat with a lot of people before you can relax and dance.

What ??

No one in the clique mind if you just say hi and then go dance. Saving chatting for later. That is advantage of being in clique. No one takes an offense since everyone is “friend” with the rest in the clique. Or first relax and chat and then go hangout with clique. If the clique doesn’t let to do that then you aren’t part of the clique. Haha.

 

[Smejmoon]

What ??

No one in the clique mind if you just say hi and then go dance. Saving chatting for later. That is advantage of being in clique. No one takes an offense since everyone is “friend” with the rest in the clique. Or first relax and chat and then go hangout with clique. If the clique doesn’t let to do that then you aren’t part of the clique. Haha.

I believe your capability to resist social pressure is way above norm. Just my observations over the years.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

So clique status is in question. Last night I entered a new venue at a festival event, but saw a few familiar faces. Didn't need to ask for the first few dances. The DJ literally ran over to me to shake my hand. And all the stars that were there greeted me, minus Edyta who has no idea who I am even though we've danced a few times in the past. Am I part of the clique?

Not bragging at all. At other events with the same people, I am ignored. Because at those events there are more, better dancers around.

Although gala night is tonight and I expect opposite behavior. We'll see.

 

[Sabrosura]

So clique status is in question. Last night I entered a new venue at a festival event, but saw a few familiar faces. Didn't need to ask for the first few dances. The DJ literally ran over to me to shake my hand. And all the stars that were there greeted me, minus Edyta who has no idea who I am even though we've danced a few times in the past. Am I part of the clique?

Not bragging at all. At other events with the same people, I am ignored. Because at those events there are more, better dancers around.

Although gala night is tonight and I expect opposite behavior. We'll see.

I think people's definition of clique in this discussion is not the same

If one is a good dancer, they will get very positive reactions at events no matter where they go. And they will tend to interact and dance with other good dancers who are there and treat each other like buddies.

That's different from having a regular clique they're part of, whether that's in their home base or at festivals.

For instance in my case, I get the kind of reactions you described very often. At most events I go to, I interact with and mostly dance with really good dancers, who are excited to see me and we will act like buddies with each other no matter how long it has been since we last met.

(For example, last night I went to a Cuban party (you see SF, I still dance salsa! Well, casino in this case ) and the DJ -- who last saw me 2-3 years ago -- was super excited to see me and literally ran down from the stage to dance with me -- the only time he did that in the entire night. And most of the good leads asked me for multiple dances throughout the night.)

However, for me this kind of tendency to socialize and dance with/be popular with specific dancers and be happy to see each other & act like buddies at parties or festivals is different from being in a clique. A "clique" by definition is very tightly knit and somewhat exclusionary. They will e.g. spend a great deal of the night together (on and off maybe, but still very noticeably so). I do not consider myself to be part of a clique in any of my dances. Never have been and don't plan to, as I prefer to keep my dance circle widely open and don't find the social dynamics of cliques appealing.

What I do have are some very close dance friendships, which are long-term and I consider them to be lifelong friendships (some started here on SF ). But these are very different from a clique. And most of our connection time is not at parties but off the dance floor. If we are at the same party together, most people would not even be able to tell that we are close friends because we are not spending any significant amount of time together interacting at the party. In contrast, it will be very obvious who is in a dance clique at a party/festival. And also from all the pre-party/ after-party pics on facebook

 

[bailar y tocar]

Not saying it's bad, but I often wonder what happens once one officially joins the "cool" group that hangs out next to the resident DJ with the promoters or instructors and appears in the highlights.


Lastly, I see that some of my clubs will have cliques where people are undoubtedly more experienced, with some instructors and performers in them but they primarily only dance with each other.

I must be either ignorant or clueless as I have never noticed any cliques in a salsa scene**.

The second line I am quoting above does not constitute a clique in my opinion. When people go out with their dance school and instructors, it is normal that they mostly dance within the group. I have not experienced that dancers would not dance with me if I ask in most cases. The exceptions are few.
There are two exceptions:

• I do not dance on2 and there are a few dance schools that are only on2. At times the students from that school do not want to dance on1 or casino. I don't have a problem with that but I don't consider that to be cliquey.
• There are a few casino rueda groups that are very advanced and only dance their own moves. They may not want to interact with others on the dance floor that dance other types of casino salsa moves. That has only happened to me exactly twice. Once in Soda Club Berlin on a Thursday timba night in July 2022 and another time in Rome in 2009 when I went to a timba night at (now defunct) Dancing Zanussi.

**Some salsa scenes are quite small and many of the regulars socialize away from the dance floor. Minneapolis/St. Paul metro is a dance scene like that. Everyone knows everyone. It might feel cliquey to an outsider/ newcomer who is introverted and shy in social settings. People in those scenes are actually MORE welcoming IME but the new person who moved to town has to make the first step.

 

[Smejmoon]

There are ruedas and show groups where people don't feel that good dancing with outsiders.

 

[Bostontraitor]

Chris was talking facts in this thread.

I am not in any snobbish group or cliques. I only make friend with like minded people. Dance skill doesn't matter to me.

 

[xoc123]

I see developing friendships as something that happens organically. I’m not sure why people would feel pressured into making friends. Do people really feel this way?

Because I got to a point that I feel a bit lonely going to events alone… it’s good to have more friends esp at festivals to travel together and share fares etc The group that I started with are nowhere to be found / drifted away, also it’s difficult to get with other peoples schedules

 

[Sabrosura]

I must be either ignorant or clueless as I have never noticed any cliques in a salsa scene**.

As someone who dances both casino and linear salsa, I'd say I've mostly observed cliques in linear salsa, much less so in casino. So that may be why you haven't seen them as much, since you mostly dance casino. Seems that casino dancers are too busy having fun to worry about cliques Brings back that old adage, Cuban dancers have more fun

PS There are the usual groupies in casino who like to hang around the 'VIPs' but those are different than cliques and exist in pretty much all dances, usually most noticeable at festivals.

 

[Governor Moonbeam]

As someone who dances both casino and linear salsa, I'd say I've mostly observed cliques in linear salsa, much less so in casino. So that may be why you haven't seen them as much, since you mostly dance casino. Seems that casino dancers are too busy having fun to worry about cliques Brings back that old adage, Cuban dancers have more fun

PS There are the usual groupies in casino who like to hang around the 'VIPs' but those are different than cliques and exist in pretty much all dances, usually most noticeable at festivals.

The demographics and dynamics of the U.S. casino scene are somewhat different than linear. It skews to an older crowd and outside of Miami the skill level tends to be lower. So lots of ppl are just happy to be there and any type of clique (if you even want to call it that) seems to be more about how dedicated you are to casino than anything else.

 

[bailar y tocar]

The demographics and dynamics of the U.S. casino scene are somewhat different than linear. It skews to an older crowd and outside of Miami the skill level tends to be lower. So lots of ppl are just happy to be there and any type of clique (if you even want to call it that) seems to be more about how dedicated you are to casino than anything else.

Its def not a cliquey feeling within the casino or casino rueda scene. There are however people who know each other well because they had been many times to the key event in the past or the key event in the present.
The past key event was the SF Salsa Rueda Festival which has not recovered after the pandemic closure.
The current key event is the Louisville Mega Rueda which has actually grown into a festival.

There is kind of an "in" crowd that has been to these events. There is also an "in" crowd that had been to Cuba and trained with professionals there. An "in" crowd could transform into an elite and become selective as to whom they dance with. I have not observed that in the places I have danced apart from the exceptions I mentioned in a previous post. After the pandemic many casino dance scenes had diminished a lot so the people who still come out to dance are happy to get any kind of cuban salsa going.