Orders ---> Conversation : Evolution of Lead and Follow?

J

jayzen

Hi all

This thought came about when I was yakking early early one morning w fellow salseroes:

In the beginning, the lead "orders", the follows "obey"

When time advances further, the lead "asks/suggests", the follows
- can choose to "comply" exactly
- can choose to "comply" but executed in the way the follow chooses
- can choose to "ignore" (hijacking)

I believe that, as leads and follows become more comfortable and competent, the dance becomes less of leads order and follows follow but more of a conversation where the leads suggests or asks but it is up to the follow to decide if they want to agree or disagree.

Any comments/thoughts?

jayzen
 
FRAME it

Very interesting.

I've never suggested anything in my dancing.

It's like this - I LEAD, U FOLLOW, 'NUFF SAID!

lol

I'm a little shaky about suggestions and leaving it to the follower to aggree or disagree.

If I'm creating the preparation for a double right turn and she does not want to follow my lead into the double right when I say so - even though her specialty is in spinning - the dance is going to look as if we are fighting and not getting along.

The guys are the FRAME and the ladies are the ARTWORK. If you are not framing that masterpiece the right way then don't bother nailing it to the wall.

The followers in Salsa and Mambo have to look like as if they are in love with the Leader. Not like Tango or Paso Doble where someone is going to get killed or get double crossed.

Of course you have bad leads and the followers who hate them, but just think of them as a kiss that went wrong. Followers usually escort themselves off the dance floor when this occurs.
 
My philosophy has always been, so long as no pain has been caused then whatever was lead was followed perfectly. Most of the ladies I really enjoy dancing with like having space to make a move their own.

For this reason I try to have a light, but clear lead. I am not trying to force her somewhere. I am suggesting where she go, if she feels something different in the music I hope she has the space to express that.

I always remember a friend's comment about a local "advanced" dancer:
"he'ld be great to dance with, if I didn't have a mind of my own"
 
I find some leaders are more "conversational" in their dancing than others. They are interested in how the follower responds and leaves plenty of room for the follower to play. There are also many leaders who prefer the follower to just follow and "play only when he says so" :lol:. Vin's friend's comment's spot on.

This is not necessarily to do with how good they are as leaders -- more of personal style differences, I think.
 
Re: Orders ---> Conversation : Evolution of Lead and Foll

jayzen said:
...In the beginning, the lead "orders", the follows "obey"

When time advances further, the lead "asks/suggests", the follows
- can choose to "comply" exactly
- can choose to "comply" but executed in the way the follow chooses
- can choose to "ignore" (hijacking)

I believe that, as leads and follows become more comfortable and competent, the dance becomes less of leads order and follows follow but more of a conversation where the leads suggests or asks but it is up to the follow to decide if they want to agree or disagree...
Click to expand...

Dancing is not, or at least should not be about ordering and obeying.
It is alwayd about showing and looking

To use the Artwork metaphore. If a leader shows me a picture, I will look at it and express my own opinion about it. As long as wee are all talking about the same picture all is OK. If I look at another picture or ignore the one I am being shown, the "conversation" will make no sense.
 
haha, well i think maybe i should have used some other words to explain it. but I think macmoto's understood what i'm saying, in that i think what i was trying to get at is

- salsa is a partner dance and hence, there has to be some form of interaction/conversation

- that leads should learn to dance with their partners by "conversing" with her and "framing" her. however, i don't think any lead can frame a picture properly without first understanding the picture

- as for my bit about follows, i personally think that a follow should grow to a point where she can choose to decide how she wants to follow or "comply" with the lead's suggestion, thus creating that "conversation"


with regards to the "fighting bit", i think i should clarify to say that the follow can and should only do it, at most, once per song. i'd like to think of hijacking a move as a way the ladies have a chance to flirt or tease or be cheeky with the lead

as you can see, i believe alot in the conversation thingy described by macmoto. but it is hard if there is no reaction (imagine talking to a brick wall or a blow-up salsa dancing doll )

jayzen
 
as a follow, i also think there are various levels of "hijacking" or maybe this falls into the category of not complying exactly...

for example, taking the opportunity to break into shines when the lead hasn't suggested it because said lead is spinning you like a top, hurting your arms with bad leading etc....

Also, slowing down simple turns and taking twice as long to do them to give yourself a break (esp if guy is doing spin after spin)....is that total hijacking......?

I also think that until you know your lead quite well (or unless you are a really really good dancer and can do with anyone?) that it's harder to hijack/not comply exactly to a lead 's suggestion and definitely doesn't work with guys that don't play with the music as they are just going to be going back and forth with their moves.

To the leads out there, again as a follower becomes more comfortable and competent, do you think you respond to a follow in what moves you decide to do next? Yes music plays a huge part, but do you think you are subconsciously suggested to do something by the follow by the way she maybe finishes off a move (not complying exactly)? Or does this fall in with knowing who you are dancing with and what kinda of dancer , or more importanly, person, they are?

I definitely have had one dance where I felt that i was almost suggesting back to the lead ? (not just general playing that normally happens).
 
irishgirl said:
as a follow, i also think there are various levels of "hijacking" or maybe this falls into the category of not complying exactly...

for example, taking the opportunity to break into shines when the lead hasn't suggested it because said lead is spinning you like a top, hurting your arms with bad leading etc....

Also, slowing down simple turns and taking twice as long to do them to give yourself a break (esp if guy is doing spin after spin)....is that total hijacking......?

I also think that until you know your lead quite well (or unless you are a really really good dancer and can do with anyone?) that it's harder to hijack/not comply exactly to a lead 's suggestion and definitely doesn't work with guys that don't play with the music as they are just going to be going back and forth with their moves.

To the leads out there, again as a follower becomes more comfortable and competent, do you think you respond to a follow in what moves you decide to do next? Yes music plays a huge part, but do you think you are subconsciously suggested to do something by the follow by the way she maybe finishes off a move (not complying exactly)? Or does this fall in with knowing who you are dancing with and what kinda of dancer , or more importanly, person, they are?

I definitely have had one dance where I felt that i was almost suggesting back to the lead ? (not just general playing that normally happens).
Click to expand...

This discussion fits so perfectly in regards to the dance i had on saturday... My follow suddenly decided to play fun and hijack the whole song...and the song demanded such playfulness...there were loads of people watching us...not to mention candice and lautoro and i think we gave them some entertainment....my follow started playing with whatever i lead and she just wanted to have fun... i decided to play along and guess what...it was one of the best dances i had that night.........
If i had decided to just lead patterns after patterns, then i think it would have been just another dance of the night....
I am so glad that i could read the signs without even her telling me what to do....
The moment u start a dance, you should look out for clues from the follow and thats what Salsa is about..... :lol:
 
I would never totally hijack a lead on purpose because I think that's unfair on the leader. Sometimes if lead makes a mistake I'll make something up to cover it up. The only time I really take any liberties with the lead is, as someone mentioned before, to interpret the music, I sometimes do things such as if the leader leads a cross body lead I'll go across in twice the time playing with the music or maybe I delay a final spin with a head whip. Something like that which I know is not completely disrupting the lead because he can continue on with the intended pattern from where we left off as I haven't changed hand position or anything.
 
For me, I don't mind if the follow "hi-jack" a short portion of the song, maybe by purposely breaking away to do shines, because she knows the songs (and I don't know) and that portion maybe very percussive, or suitable for shines. Then she may take the lead in that sense to start something fun.

But I hope she won't do it like in the middle of a complicated pattern. Off hand i can think of a few opportunities to break away and that is after an open break, when there is a basic step, or something simple like after the simple turn.

Do whatever you like as long as you don't spoil his patterns or as long as you are not rude to him.

Yeah.....taking a break by doing a slow motion simple turns works as he won't get "thrown off".


Well these are my opinions only.
 
Hi, I'm new to salsaforums.com :D

This is an interesting topic. I always thought that any deliberate interference with the guy's leads would make him frustrated. But the idea of playfully altering moves sounds really fun and creative to me, as long as it isn't taken too far or done all the time.

At the Salsa Mambo Festival in Palm Springs, CA, I saw Edie (during a social dance) reach up and firmly grab the guy's right forearm with her left hand after an open break, then stop and do a slow body roll. You could hear the slap when her hand went up to grab the guy's arm. It was really a surprise to the guy she was dancing with and to all of us watching, and it looked really cool. What does everyone think? Is that something that would be okay to do and wouldn't be frustrating to the leader?
 
great! great! :D

ooo, this discussion is great! by the way, sac, who are you? :tongue: do i know you?

as i think i said before (or rambled/mumbled/whatever :tongue:), salsa to me is a partner dance where lead partners the follow and partners the music. therefore, there should be constant interaction and communication amongst all and not one way flow of information/direction.

in fact, i think it makes the dance richer if partners interact on the floor (ok maybe not thru exchanging phone numbers :roll:). more so if it's in the same tune/mood as the music.

as to hijacking, i do agree that doing it once in a while and for a short bit of the song is ok. heh, would probably keep the leads on their toes :tongue:. and, to me, the variation of that CBL described by salseralaura is not hijacking as she followed his lead but rather, a difference of interpretation of the execution :tongue:

i need more coffee!!!!

jayzen
 
jayzen said:
great! great! :D

ooo, this discussion is great! by the way, sac, who are you? :tongue: do i know you?

as i think i said before (or rambled/mumbled/whatever :tongue:), salsa to me is a partner dance where lead partners the follow and partners the music. therefore, there should be constant interaction and communication amongst all and not one way flow of information/direction.

in fact, i think it makes the dance richer if partners interact on the floor (ok maybe not thru exchanging phone numbers :roll:). more so if it's in the same tune/mood as the music.

as to hijacking, i do agree that doing it once in a while and for a short bit of the song is ok. heh, would probably keep the leads on their toes :tongue:. and, to me, the variation of that CBL described by salseralaura is not hijacking as she followed his lead but rather, a difference of interpretation of the execution :tongue:

i need more coffee!!!!

jayzen
Click to expand...


:lol: :lol: you may have seen me at the recent MSF festival. im salsero from KL. are u salsera or salsero?
 
er, sac, out of what, 200+ malaysians??

me, can't guess ah? :tongue:

ok, i'll be nice. me -> ro :D

mainly on1, transiting to on2. u definitely would've seen me :tongue:


by the way, the interacting/hijack thing, does it happen often overseas? hardly happens down here in singapore barring a one or three follows.


jayzen
 
salsita said:
Hi, I'm new to salsaforums.com :D

This is an interesting topic. I always thought that any deliberate interference with the guy's leads would make him frustrated. But the idea of playfully altering moves sounds really fun and creative to me, as long as it isn't taken too far or done all the time.

At the Salsa Mambo Festival in Palm Springs, CA, I saw Edie (during a social dance) reach up and firmly grab the guy's right forearm with her left hand after an open break, then stop and do a slow body roll. You could hear the slap when her hand went up to grab the guy's arm. It was really a surprise to the guy she was dancing with and to all of us watching, and it looked really cool. What does everyone think? Is that something that would be okay to do and wouldn't be frustrating to the leader?
Click to expand...

I took a private with Edie and she said that sometimes if a guy is spinning her too much or too roughly she'll put up her hand like that to stop him and then you give him a body roll to appease him...lol
 
salseralaura said:
salsita said:
Hi, I'm new to salsaforums.com :D

This is an interesting topic. I always thought that any deliberate interference with the guy's leads would make him frustrated. But the idea of playfully altering moves sounds really fun and creative to me, as long as it isn't taken too far or done all the time.

At the Salsa Mambo Festival in Palm Springs, CA, I saw Edie (during a social dance) reach up and firmly grab the guy's right forearm with her left hand after an open break, then stop and do a slow body roll. You could hear the slap when her hand went up to grab the guy's arm. It was really a surprise to the guy she was dancing with and to all of us watching, and it looked really cool. What does everyone think? Is that something that would be okay to do and wouldn't be frustrating to the leader?
Click to expand...

I took a private with Edie and she said that sometimes if a guy is spinning her too much or too roughly she'll put up her hand like that to stop him and then you give him a body roll to appease him...lol
Click to expand...

Ah, that makes sense! Lol ;)
 
I think as long is done carefully to avoid injuries, then it is surely fun, I like te idea of dancing as being an activity in which there an exchange of ideas. I have a friend who actually will try to make me spin, if she sees me going into a spin, she will push me in my side, luckily the weigh difference I think compensates for such a out of place " lead ". So I only get to feel a nudge. since I know her I am sort of prepare and actually is fun, and I enjoy it, however is certainly something that I will never recommend someone to do, as it could push the guy out of balance, in middle a spin, with elbows turning, that is certainly dangerous
 
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