So I saw a Mario B workshop from the Miami Salsa Congress on tape. I have to say that an On 1 dancer would have never come up with something like that. I also got the same impression when I saw footage from a Juan Matos workshop and I've never really known him for his partner work. On 2 dancers are definately more creative with their partner work. I was talking about this to one of my fellow on 1 friends here in town and he says you can do more in on 2 because somehow you have more time. that doesn't make sense mathematically to me, but I've heard more than one person say that. On 2 peeps, is there any truth to that?
On 2
- Thread starter memphis salsero
- Start date
hay mas tiempo en dos...
I'm native to on2 and never had to dance much on1 until I moved to this part of the country, but the thing about having more time on2 is partially because we usually cover much less distance than on1. With far less back-and-forth "marching," it's more compact and feels more controlled (to me, at least).
Also, ladies have more time for spinning on2 because they start spinning on 1 and their next break is on 6. On1, to my understanding, the spinning starts on5 and the next break is on 1. So there's one extra count available on2, but I may be completely wrong... Nutrasweet has that effect on the brain...
I'm native to on2 and never had to dance much on1 until I moved to this part of the country, but the thing about having more time on2 is partially because we usually cover much less distance than on1. With far less back-and-forth "marching," it's more compact and feels more controlled (to me, at least).
Also, ladies have more time for spinning on2 because they start spinning on 1 and their next break is on 6. On1, to my understanding, the spinning starts on5 and the next break is on 1. So there's one extra count available on2, but I may be completely wrong... Nutrasweet has that effect on the brain...
Interesting observations. You both are in LA now?
In reality-- you dont have more time , it only appears that way.
If you are dancing, as one should, using the beats prescribed, then the amount of time is identical.
What comes into play-- as always-- is distance travelled . The extended break steps , obviously , do not allow as much time for transitional movements ., hence the feeling of " more " time , when less distance is required .
The same can be said for slow, against fast music-- same steps, just one allows more expression than the other .
If you are dancing, as one should, using the beats prescribed, then the amount of time is identical.
What comes into play-- as always-- is distance travelled . The extended break steps , obviously , do not allow as much time for transitional movements ., hence the feeling of " more " time , when less distance is required .
The same can be said for slow, against fast music-- same steps, just one allows more expression than the other .
Re: hay mas tiempo en dos...
It really depends on who you're dancing with as to how much distance you cover 'marching'. As for when the spin starts on1, where I learn a double is led on 4 and 6 and a triple can start on 3 so I'm not sure where this 'more time' idea for on 2 comes from. With both styles you 'could' start leading a spin on 1 and finish on the next 1 or the 1 after that, if you were so inclined (and your follower didn't stop spinning and slap you for lack of imagination).
mambo_LR said:
It really depends on who you're dancing with as to how much distance you cover 'marching'. As for when the spin starts on1, where I learn a double is led on 4 and 6 and a triple can start on 3 so I'm not sure where this 'more time' idea for on 2 comes from. With both styles you 'could' start leading a spin on 1 and finish on the next 1 or the 1 after that, if you were so inclined (and your follower didn't stop spinning and slap you for lack of imagination).
Terence2 said:
One reason I love Cha Cha
memphis salsero said:
With many dancers from all over the world going to NYC to study salsa and the advent of sites like Imambo, a lot of the New York and/or On2 flavor is being incorporated into On1, especially since you have dancers/instructors that dance both and like the On2 feel.
Santo Rico has been credited with starting the turns early to kick out more multiples, which influenced other NY On2 troops, On2 around the world, and it looks like even On1 from some of the things being posted by On1 dancers on this site because the conventional wisdom from industry experts like Edie "the salsa freak" and Jamie Josephson has been that On2 you have more time for spins.
Based on the premise that a single right (natural) turn can be done over three steps, a follower On1 will have their first step into the turn on the 5 so their turn is executed 5-6-7 with a "pause" beat on the 8 before setting off again on the 1.
An follower On2 will have their first step into the turn on 2 so their turn is danced 2-3-pause-5 then into their back step on 6.
Consequently, the pause for the On1 follower comes after the turn, whilst the pause for the On2 follower comes mid turn, thereby giving the impression that an On2 dancer has more time.
This logic works in exactly the same way for travelling, cross-body type turns.
As to On2 dancers being more creative? Nah, I don't think so.
An follower On2 will have their first step into the turn on 2 so their turn is danced 2-3-pause-5 then into their back step on 6.
Consequently, the pause for the On1 follower comes after the turn, whilst the pause for the On2 follower comes mid turn, thereby giving the impression that an On2 dancer has more time.
This logic works in exactly the same way for travelling, cross-body type turns.
As to On2 dancers being more creative? Nah, I don't think so.
Terence2 said:
Who is, of course, a product of his or her environment. Some environments may be more condusive to spawning creativity in salsa.
One perspective from Edie's website:
"A "2" Perspective - by Marla
After spending the last two weeks in New York dancing on 2, I am finding it very difficult to enjoy dancing on 1 again. Don't get me wrong, I think LA has fabulous dancers but I miss the soul and spirit of the NY dancers. Since being back, I really notice that my arms get tired from endless partners thinking it's really cool to spin me, pretzel me through numerous maneuvers, tricks, drops, etc. That used to be really fun to me but not anymore. I'd rather dance with a partner who does less tricks but has more soul.
When you dance the NY 2 (which is different than the typical ballroom 2 - I'll explain later), you feel like you are just gliding. It feels like your partner is taking you on the ultimate thrill ride - not with speed and tricks, but with soul."
salsastories.com/stories_a-b/2.htm
Gotta tell you......I'm in a predominantly ON1 town.
I can't speak for any other ON1 scene but here less than 20 percent of ON1 dancers are on time, only the upper echelon demonstrate any type of musicality, more than 80 percent are pattern monkeys and just about all of them can't maintain the slot.
Yes I'm strictly ON2 and yes I'm biased...with that being said what I've stated here are facts. I know it can't be like that everywhere cause this site has more than it's share of threads from ON1 dancers talking about timing, musicality etc..... perhaps it's just a result of the teachings of the major studio here......
I can't speak for any other ON1 scene but here less than 20 percent of ON1 dancers are on time, only the upper echelon demonstrate any type of musicality, more than 80 percent are pattern monkeys and just about all of them can't maintain the slot.
Yes I'm strictly ON2 and yes I'm biased...with that being said what I've stated here are facts. I know it can't be like that everywhere cause this site has more than it's share of threads from ON1 dancers talking about timing, musicality etc..... perhaps it's just a result of the teachings of the major studio here......
Salsamakossa
Changui
Jlon2,
And therein lies the answer ... For the record, I dance both.
And therein lies the answer ... For the record, I dance both.
jlon2 said:
In the north of England, most (though not all) people who dance On2, danced On1 first to Intermediate level or above. Consequently, Most On2 dancers are gonna have more experience dancing salsa than most On1 dancers. I could draw a venn diagram to illustrate this but I can't be bothered.
Anyway, basically, my point is that it's not that On2 dancers are more creative, but that that more experienced dancers are more likely to dance On2.
Or something.
Anyway, basically, my point is that it's not that On2 dancers are more creative, but that that more experienced dancers are more likely to dance On2.
Or something.
It would be interesting to hear from dancers that started off On2 and converted strickly to On1. I can never seem to find these folks, if they exist?
My friends from NYC that have moved to places like LA or Florida always indicate that they would never abandon On2 and still prefer it. I think its best to know how to dance both, just in case
My friends from NYC that have moved to places like LA or Florida always indicate that they would never abandon On2 and still prefer it. I think its best to know how to dance both, just in case
UnlikelySalsero
Changui
memphis salsero said:
Hmmm... I almost hate to get involved in this because it's a no win subject. There are two primary styles, and people can be as creative in one style as the other. Having more time is totally bogus as well as the song is still the same length, there are 8 counts per measure. Many of the better On1 dancers don't wait until count 5 for multiple spins, so how much time you have is based on the lead. If you allow more time for one part of the move, you have to take it away from something else.
I once had a very interesting discussion with Luis Vasquez on this subject. Here is what he said: More people who dance On2, started with On1. When they start their On2 training, they bring lots of things to the table they learned while dancing On1, and because they are not starting at the same point where they started On1, they think it's easier. But they often are better dancers already at the start of their On2 journey.
Their feel tends to be more mature, because they have been dancing longer. They have fun with On2 sooner, because it's a variation, not starting from scratch. Additionally, some people get bored after a few years of ANY dance and On2 brings a new challenge. They have fun sooner, they enjoy themselves and often they are dancing with more mature dancers. When they dance with On1 partners, their approach is often less positive because they are loving the On2 stuff at that point as that is their focus.
(End of discussion with Luis)
Creativity isn't related to On2 but in any given scene there can be more creative people dancing one style or the other (and there are a few variations of On2).
It's like the dancer who has a strong hip-hop or hustle background, they come into On1 or On2 and everybody is amazed how fast they pick this up and how creative they are. They simply bring more to the table at the beginning, and they do some things differently because of their prior experiences.
Alternately, if your scene is more creative, you believe that is the current standard and you'll dance like your peers as soon as possible. So if you start On2 in a scene of very mature dancers, you will dance like them in less time than the person who starts with On1 and most around them are pattern monkeys.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I think many get the cause/effect confused between the two dances. There are tons of non-creative On1 dancers, but that is not because On1 is less creative.
Most On2 scenes are more passionate because like many minority groups, they work hard to sell their scene and increase their influence. I love their passion! I think that is excellent and I applaud them for it, but saying it's more creative doesn't make it so.
This is one of those subjects that will never end... Enjoy the style you like, but know that the other camp has as much to offer if approached right.
Here is another take on the issue of time from the addicted to salsa website.
"When I first started dancing on 2, I thought timing did not matter because by being a lady I just thought you step forward instead of stepping back with the basic step. However, most salsa dancers I have spoken with told me that salsa on 2 has more of a pause and more time to play with the music and prep for a spin (my opinion- I believe it gives one more momentum). On that pause one speaks about may allow more room for styling such as body rolls, body movement, and footwork just a few to mention. In addition to allowing more time to style on the pause, some have mentioned that on 2 gives more room to play with the music. What do I mean by play with the music. Sometimes that has a lot to do with the accents of the music which is a strong syllable or musical note which emphasizes the pitch like a sudden and distinct loud trumpet in the music. This relates to styling ,if one can remember back to a childhood game of freeze tag, where one child becomes “it”-tagging people- and the other children are running around from that kid and if they are tagged then they “freeze”. Some people like to “freeze” to the accent by hitting a pose and standing still for that pause like a manikin.. Those are just examples of styling. So going back to the point of timing some prefer to style or hit the accents on 1 and 5 which can rely a lot on the vocals or the tempo of the music. Same thing goes with on 2, but the emphasis is on 2 and 6. "
addicted2salsa.com/author/latinaskin/
"When I first started dancing on 2, I thought timing did not matter because by being a lady I just thought you step forward instead of stepping back with the basic step. However, most salsa dancers I have spoken with told me that salsa on 2 has more of a pause and more time to play with the music and prep for a spin (my opinion- I believe it gives one more momentum). On that pause one speaks about may allow more room for styling such as body rolls, body movement, and footwork just a few to mention. In addition to allowing more time to style on the pause, some have mentioned that on 2 gives more room to play with the music. What do I mean by play with the music. Sometimes that has a lot to do with the accents of the music which is a strong syllable or musical note which emphasizes the pitch like a sudden and distinct loud trumpet in the music. This relates to styling ,if one can remember back to a childhood game of freeze tag, where one child becomes “it”-tagging people- and the other children are running around from that kid and if they are tagged then they “freeze”. Some people like to “freeze” to the accent by hitting a pose and standing still for that pause like a manikin.. Those are just examples of styling. So going back to the point of timing some prefer to style or hit the accents on 1 and 5 which can rely a lot on the vocals or the tempo of the music. Same thing goes with on 2, but the emphasis is on 2 and 6. "
addicted2salsa.com/author/latinaskin/
sweavo
Changui
UnlikelySalsero said:
It's a religious issue, because your perception changes depending on your viewpoint. Not yours, anyone's.
Bogus is too strong a word for the 'more time' phenomenon. You can argue it away with as much logic as you want, but we will be only discussing semantics, as the phenomenon is as real as a rainbow or the fact that loud noises make you jump.