obsessed with time

E

ee98iae

Changui
Hi all
This is to the timing obsessed people out there,

Ok! I'm a Cuban salsa (casino) teacher with 3 year teaching experience and about 10year dance experience. I dance all Cuban forms e.g. afro-Cuban, rumba and son. I also play congas (tumbao, guaguancó, and a bit of tumbao-timba variation)

I was fortunate, that I learned from a Cuban dance teacher from Cuban National School of Art and Dance, I learned to dance with music playing, so no counting, learning the feel of the music, and the feel of where I start my steps naturally, depending on the music some time 1 and sometime 5. I don't see a problem with that, and in dancing contra-tempo, it is even easier, between the conga and the bass and clave, it's very straight forward.

So here is the problem that I'm obsessing over now days, one of my students (forma X body dancer) he dances on the one the timing is right, but the feel of is just wrong…
I mean, he looks like he is dancing too fast, time!!!!.

So I want to tell him to stop thinking about the one, and stop dancing to the one, and just feel it. But I need to put it in a different way as he is on time technically.

I also want to ask how important is dancing on the one or dancing on 2 is to you in compare to dancing to the feel….

And please for those who jump to say that dancing on 1 and 2 is dancing to the feel of music… you are not getting what I mean!

thank you to all
 
ee98iae said:
Hi all
This is to the timing obsessed people out there,

Ok! I'm a Cuban salsa (casino) teacher with 3 year teaching experience and about 10year dance experience. I dance all Cuban forms e.g. afro-Cuban, rumba and son. I also play congas (tumbao, guaguancó, and a bit of tumbao-timba variation)
Click to expand...

Can you provide a video of you dancing that illustrates how you dance and feel the music?
 
I don't consciously count (though I can), and will dance on whatever the leader is dancing on. I will take "dancing to the feel" over rigid on-1/on-2/on-something, with one caveat. Salsa being a partner dance, the leader and follower need to have a common point of reference, and usually the "feel" alone is not common enough. So if I'm dancing "to the feel", the leader has to communicate his interpretation very well and also to give me space and time to express my own "feel". Such leaders come along very rarely, even among the better dancers, so dancing on a chosen beat is the easiest default.
 
Perhaps you could get him to pick out various percussion instruments, or bass notes (depending on the track) that might have a swing to them and get him to match his steps with them. Maybe it would help him to vocalise a rhythm and dance to that instead of the count for a while. I don't know. Hope you find a solution.
 
Isn't this rather trivial? Any good dancer moves in sync with, follows, the music, at one count or another.

I would be extremely surprised if OP doesn't follow the rythm of the music, and he certainly counts, even if he's reached such a level that he's unaware of it.., this condescending attitude towards those who are yet unable to dance in the same way is just silly.

It's not a matter of simply choosing to get the "feel", what seems easy for someone who have more than 10 years experience is not easy for those with less experience.
 
Unless the guy is fishing for 'cuban vs xbody vs feel vs counting' troll food then he has posted a genuine problem that he is having with one of his students. Helping him out wouldn't just be helping him. Other people might have the same problem and get something from this thread so rather than jump on everything else and ignore his issue wouldn't it be better to provide possible solutions? Ok, I'll shut up now. I've said what needs to be said.
 
I ask because i know some old timers from back home, who say they don’t count but just feel the music, with all due respect to them, they look just silly to put it mildly, when they try to show me how they are feeling the music, (closing their eyes, extending their hands as if receive energy from the skies, screams of whepa, dale, aya ya yaya!!etc etc)

If feeling is a subjective matter as taste, then partner work will be impossible, if everyone brings to the table a desire to impose their way of feeling the music, what is the other person to do? Follow the feeling of the other person?. Or just feel the music whatever way he/she want to feel the music, and become a disorganize battle of wills?.

In other worlds, is there are "right way to feel the music” and if there is such a way, why is so hard to explain it?.

I say this not to dismiss such a question, but to stimulate critical thinking about a topic that too often is being owned as birth right by native dancers (I was one of them).
 
I think Flujo has a point, the original poster is in fact asking about a way to solve the current problem with this student.

I will say, why not follow methodology that was used to teach the teacher to begin with. Put on music and start dancing to it, forget about counts.

I would actually suggest that the student stands behind the teacher, put some music, get the teacher to start dancing, and then the student can just follow and try to duplicate the movement that the teacher does in respect of the cues of the music.

That is how native dancers learn to dance back in our latin countries, by watching. So I think that this will be a good way to go about it. it won’t happen overnight, but I think if done for a few hours every week for a month, such a movements is bound to latch on to the student
 
Sure, "Demonstration - Imitation" is the most primitive form of teaching, might work if the student is very talented, has grown up with the music, and/or has plenty of time and money. It's probably not very efficient, but at least it's "natural".

If it was that simple all great dancers would be great teachers, and we would all get fantastic by watching Youtube.

Dancing and teaching to dance are two different skill sets, just because your motoric system knows how to do something doesn't mean that your concious mind has any idea of it. Which of course mean you can not explain much to a novice.
 
I would also like to add that I don't have much faith in this conviction that counting, consiously or unconsiously, in any way should be considered a bad habit. It means you know where you are in the music and act accordingly.

The musicians count, the dancers are ideally a part of the group, why shouldn't they count as well?

So, trying to to stop the student from counting sounds like a bad idea.

I would guess that if the student looks like he's dancing too fast, he makes the mistake of being exactly on time, or slightly before the count.

As I understand it, a dancer should be slightly behind the count, a bit slow, so he can react and adapt to the music instead of making assumptions about what to express.
 
When I am with someone who is somehow 'off' on timing I stand next to them in a mirror and see how it differs timing wise. I had a great instructor who showed me that stretching out an arm movement for one extra half beat, or curving it a certain way can make it seem much longer and more relaxed than being precisely on time. She uses it for effect or 'to the music'. It could be that he's not learned that slight form of musicality yet.

Most importantly, and I don't say this to criticize you or your teaching. You clearly care a lot about your students when you come seeking advice as you are. But here's the thing; you need to be aware of what YOU'RE doing. He can't read minds and he clearly isn't advanced enough to be able to explain the difference between you and him. You're the teacher and when that's the case 'feeling' the music' isn't always enough for that particular student. If you're trying to get him to dance closer to the way you do, you need to be able to explain to him the differences. It sounds as if he is a quite technical dancer. If you are unable to make the process clear to him this you should recommend a teacher who can teach him the way he needs to be taught, either as a supplement for this issue or as an altogether switch to another instructor. I have two teachers myself, one who teaches me style and the other who drills me with the basics. Both are great but it works best for me if I do both.

Once again, I'm not saying you're a bad teacher, not at all. With three years you're probably great, and as I said earlier; the fact that you're asking for help means you checked your ego at the door, the sign of a great instructor. The problem is that sometimes people learn and teach different ways, if you can't explain it so that he understands he needs to learn from someone who can. I have seen so many people who have struggled to dance switch instructors and then they suddenly get it. And not necessarily because they're going to a better instructor, but because the instructor teaches in a way they understand. To that end I have no fear of taking a struggling student aside and asking how they need to learn. If I can't do it, I'm happy to send that student to another instructor I respect. The other instructors do the same for their students.

It's about the student after all, not the instructor. Right?

Hope I didn't offend you.
 
ee98iae said:
Hi all
So here is the problem that I'm obsessing over now days, one of my students (forma X body dancer) he dances on the one the timing is right, but the feel of is just wrong…
I mean, he looks like he is dancing too fast, time!!!!.

So I want to tell him to stop thinking about the one, and stop dancing to the one, and just feel it. But I need to put it in a different way as he is on time technically.
Click to expand...

Hi there,

So you say he is on time technically. That makes me think it is something in how he moves. The Cuban teacher in our town moves like no other teacher in the town, even though they are all "on time". So I think you should explore what it is that makes the person "look" fast when they are not really fast.

I imagine that it's related to the weight transfer and body movement. If the weight is not committed to the steps then they can look more hurried. If the body is stiff then the basic looks empty...

hope that helps
 
Some of the ways one might appear too fast while still on time…

1. Go from A to B in half the time as desired. As long as s/he stays at B for appropriate amount of time before moving onto C, s/he is on time.

2. Go from A to B in exactly on time but also make unnecessary stops at D, E and F as well. Again s/he is on time but has made a lot more movement (and probably moved faster than needed).

Some people teach “sharp” look, fastest spin possible, etc.

I have in the past had difficulties with followers who spun faster than I’d have liked for songs not calling for such. I suppose I could say the same about getting people to change speed (faster or slower) mid-way through a dance. I think I’m getting better but it’s a long process full of trial-and-error.

As for developing the way one moves, I think everyone has to discover for themselves ultimately – fitting how to listen to the music and interpret it using best of his or her abilities and limits. Simply copying another person seen live or via youtube will only make you a pale imitation of the original (or worse yet imitation of another imitation).
 
I'm thinking along the same line as sweavo - if a person is on time but looks as if he's too fast or rushed, it may be to do with the way he's taking his steps. My guess is that he appears fast because his steps are not fully 'there', maybe because he's not very grounded and/or he just steps with his feet/knees down and not with the whole body (rib cage down). In Cuban style dancing you emphasise the feel of pushing into the ground with each step, and coming from a slot style, maybe he has a more of a flying stepping style (for want of a better expression).

I don't think telling him to 'just feel it' would produce any result. As sweavo says, I think it's probably more about weight transfer and body movement, which you can teach systematically as a technique.
 
ee98iae said:
So here is the problem that I'm obsessing over now days, one of my students (forma X body dancer) he dances on the one the timing is right, but the feel of is just wrong…
I mean, he looks like he is dancing too fast, time!!!!.
Click to expand...

OK, firstly I agree there is a different feel when dancing a Cuban basic to dancing a X-body basic. For me, the difference is a question of emphasis and has many aspects.

One aspect is that although your student may be stepping on the 1, his foot movement (and transfer of weight) may not be sharp (as it also is in Son). Also Cubans tend to hold the foot on the ground until the last possible moment before moving it to the next beat. So all the footwork should look very sharp, with little time of the foot in mid-air.

In my opinion these aspects would best be learned from dancing Son, which includes the footwork timing and the basic body movements required for Cuban salsa. Since it is at a slower tempo your student should be able to see the difference and learn the feeling through copying and practice.

Obviously it would be best if you could spend some time learning the differences and how to teach them.
 
ee98iae said:
And please for those who jump to say that dancing on 1 and 2 is dancing to the feel of music… you are not getting what I mean!

thank you to all
Click to expand...

I think you could stand to be a bit more specific with this statement; simply saying "you are not getting what I mean" is kinda open-ended and Vague. After getting past my initial reaction to this, however, I think I see your point.

You can dance On1 or On2 and be on beat, but still not "feel the music." I've seen many dancers (I used to do this myself as well) dance "on beat," yet what they were doing did not match the "feel" or mood of the song. However, I don't think that anyone can be dancing to the "feel" of the music without actually dancing on beat, be it On1, On2, or even On3, 4, 5, 6... (haven't ever seen those done, but I could imagine it's possible, albeit rare). They may not be counting or learned with counting, but nonetheless, they are consistently on a beat.

I'm not saying that you were going here with this, but this sounds so much like that misconception that if you're dancing to a count, you're not feeling the music, and vice versa. I think this is soooo far from the truth. I think what really feeds this misconception is this: For those of us who didn't grow up with or around salsa music, we don't have a natural feel for the music. Counting just happens to be a practical way of teaching someone how to be on beat with the music. The problem is that most of us, at some point in our salsa journey, try so hard to be on beat that we end up focusing more on the count than the music itself. Add this to the fact that most students have to take body movement-specific workshops or privates to learn how to "move" to the music, most dancers that are just past the beginner level and well into intermediate end up looking too stiff and robotic. This is probably why many latinos/hispanics who grew up dancing look down on "trained/schooled" dancers because they are doing what they've grown up doing, but can't do it w/ "flava." Some of us eventually learn to break out of that mold and add our own personality and sabor to our dance, but not everybody gets to that level at the same time, if at all.

I've come to the conclusion that a balance is needed: use counting to teach someone how to achieve the beat, but also teach musicality so that the person can dance with the music, not just on beat (two different things). You can't just focus on the count, nor can you tell someone to "just" feel the music.


PielCanela said:
I ask because i know some old timers from back home, who say they don’t count but just feel the music, with all due respect to them, they look just silly to put it mildly, when they try to show me how they are feeling the music, (closing their eyes, extending their hands as if receive energy from the skies, screams of whepa, dale, aya ya yaya!!etc etc)

If feeling is a subjective matter as taste, then partner work will be impossible, if everyone brings to the table a desire to impose their way of feeling the music, what is the other person to do? Follow the feeling of the other person?. Or just feel the music whatever way he/she want to feel the music, and become a disorganize battle of wills?.

In other worlds, is there are "right way to feel the music” and if there is such a way, why is so hard to explain it?.

I say this not to dismiss such a question, but to stimulate critical thinking about a topic that too often is being owned as birth right by native dancers (I was one of them).
Click to expand...

I agree totally. That's why I believe, although concentrating on only the count will limit you, the count is necessary. Since this is indeed a "partner" dance, there must be some kind of common ground for both members of the partnership to refer back to; otherwise, they'll both "feel" the music, which, depending on their personalities/experience/thought processes, could end up being two completely different things.

This reminds me of a great article I found:

http://www.salsaontario.com/article_info.php?articles_id=11

This more so speaks on the "just have fun" crowd vs. timing as opposed to "feel the music" vs. timing, but I think it's still just as relevant to the topic at hand. If your focus on feeling the music or having fun keeps you from being on beat, then you are out of sync with your partner and he or she is probably not having nearly as much fun as you are.

BTW, I'm sooo feeling you on your last statement. Not all latinos/hispanics have that type of attitude, but there are enough that do. They act as if their nationality gives them "ownership" of the music, like they are born just naturally being able to do it. While a huge portion of decent, good, and great latin-style dancers are indeed latin, being latin in and of itself hardly qualifies you to know how to dance or feel the music. The attitudes I've seen and heard of remind me of how some black people (I'm black, btw) act as if they own hip-hop, and heavily scrutinize anyone non-black who tries to act/sing/dance "black." The whole "its in your genes" thing is quite overblown to me. If your heritage or "blood" was all that you needed, then how come there aren't more sports legends that have a son or daughter who is just as talented at the same sport? Why aren't there more political leaders that have kids running for the same position?
 
Without actually watching him dance it is hard to really give a good analysis. The way you describe it sounds to me like he is anticipating the music, and thus the count, rather than reacting to it.
 
Flujo said:
Perhaps you could get him to pick out various percussion instruments, or bass notes (depending on the track) that might have a swing to them and get him to match his steps with them. Maybe it would help him to vocalise a rhythm and dance to that instead of the count for a while. I don't know. Hope you find a solution.
Click to expand...

thanks Flujo, i'll try that, i will work with him with one track that he likes...

i haven't read all the post yet, and i will read them all!!

thanks again to all!
 
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