Now that dancing publicly is over, what do we do?

[Chris_Yannick]

I think her suicide perhaps had an impact on the scene which made people more conscious about seeing other dancers as people. In rush to dance we often fail to see others as more than a dancer.

From what I've seen, people tend to forget the traumatic events in Salsa quite quickly. If something doesn't affect someone personally, the 'introspection' period is quite low in general. Just like this Covid situation. I expect people to not only forget about it, but not even bother taking any more precaution once social dancing is given the green light.

Salsa is an escape for many people. They dance to forget all the bad things that are happening around them. I've found that when you go dancing, you better leave all of that baggage at home or else people just won't want to hang around/dance with you.

I've met some truly empathetic people in Salsa and I am grateful for anyone who is willing to lend an ear, but it also feels weird taking up their time when I know they'd rather be on the dance floor.

 

[Sabrosura]

From what I've seen, people tend to forget the traumatic events in Salsa quite quickly. If something doesn't affect someone personally, the 'introspection' period is quite low in general. Just like this Covid situation. I expect people to not only forget about it, but not even bother taking any more precaution once social dancing is given the green light.

Salsa is an escape for many people. They dance to forget all the bad things that are happening around them. I've found that when you go dancing, you better leave all of that baggage at home or else people just won't want to hang around/dance with you.

I was about to write something similar about salsa being an "escape drug" for many people - which is why I think having to take a forced break from it can actually result in some - or a lot of - positive effects.

(Side note: I am now at 3+ months without any dancing, since I was busy moving countries right before corona happened - this is the longest break I have ever taken since I started dancing and I'm definitely feeling the "dance itch" getting stronger and stronger! Previously I was dancing about once a week, so it's not like I was going out every night, but this long break is really getting to be too much...)

So to add more to the salsa-as-escape-from-reality dimension: I think that for many people, their salsa activities become something they ascribe a lot more meaning to than they really have (and I say this as someone whose main free-time activity was salsa for many years, so I was fully immersed in the "salsa is my life" feeling).

For example, someone may think that they have a great social life because salsa seems to fulfill the need for social connection, because they interact with tens/hundreds of dancers on a regular basis - but when 'push comes to shove', how many of those "salsa friends" could they count on in a time of need?

This is not meant to disparage salsa friendships/relationships - I am personally very grateful for the amazing people I have met through salsa, including my fiance and some of my closest friends - but out of the hundreds or even thousands of such people, I am fully aware than only a very small handful I can really call "friends", and I make an effort to keep in touch with them and nurture the friendship in the "real world". Sure, by now I know hundreds of dancers who are happy to see me at parties/congresses and who I'm happy to see, and we have some great conversations and share blissful moments of connection on the dance floor, and I really appreciate those relationships for what they are - but I also know that most of those "friendships" start and end on the dance floor.

Similarly, for other people salsa can be a way for them to avoid making a truly meaningful change in their life - as an example, I used salsa for several years to manage the stress of a job that was sucking the life out of me. At some point I finally left that job and took a more meaningful career direction, but I can also imagine someone could let themselves (out of inertia) stay in a crappy life situation (job, etc.) for years simply because they think they are getting all their "life's meaning" from salsa, or because salsa basically allows them to relieve the stress and thus not have to think too much about making any real changes that would allow them to find more meaning in their lives. It's much easier to go dancing every night than to sit down with yourself and make a hard decision to change your life situation, e.g. make a career change or invest in a relationship (or leave the bad one you're in).

So I think the effect of this forced break will cause many "hardcore dancers" to reconsider what is truly important / what would truly give meaning to their lives. Some may conclude that's indeed salsa dancing (and that's great in that case), while others may realize there are things/people/situations they've been avoiding thinking about because salsa had been providing an easy and pleasurable "alternate reality".

 

[Offbeat]

So I think the effect of this forced break will cause many "hardcore dancers" to reconsider what is truly important / what would truly give meaning to their lives. Some may conclude that's indeed salsa dancing (and that's great in that case), while others may realize there are things/people/situations they've been avoiding thinking about because salsa had been providing an easy and pleasurable "alternate reality".

Most hardcore dancers I recall from ten years back or earlier cease to be active dancers. I have noticed that the hardcore dancers after a few years disappear from the scene.

On the other hand the middle of the road dancers, who are regulars but not hardcore tend to sustain far longer.

it may be possible that some hardcore dancers will not return after the break. I find the probability very small of that happening. I just think that being a “hardcore” dancer is a phase that many go through. Some for a very short time and some for a longer time. Rarely have I seen that phase last longer than five years. Discounting the pros who have to make a living out of it. We have seen many of them disappear too.

The rest of your post is spot on. It is good if salsa is an escape or a way to de-stress for a short time. But that is like using salsa as a drug which hides the symptom. People have to sooner or later fix whatever is causing them to escape or stress.

 

[Tom Schueler]

So to add more to the salsa-as-escape-from-reality dimension: I think that for many people, their salsa activities become something they ascribe a lot more meaning to than they really have (and I say this as someone whose main free-time activity was salsa for many years, so I was fully immersed in the "salsa is my life" feeling).

I really like what you're saying but this is one aspect I see differently. Salsa maybe a pastime activity but it's just as important or superfluous as you make it. Characterizing it as an escape for even some does not do it justice. An escape is "the other," a less-important thing that helps you flee from or cope with the so called real-life, an escape is not really a part of life but can only temporary. But what is salsa exactly, why should something fun and engaging be not a valuable part of your life? I understand if people see drinking or drugs as an escape, because they do help you forget and are unhealthy in the longterm. These are aspects I do not see in salsa at all, though.

Sure, it can be an emotional substitute, just like the "important" aspects of life can be a substitute as well: Having children can be an escape from a non-functional relationship or starting a new job can be an escape from realizing you're trapped. When we do something excessivly it doesn't simultaneiously mean we're addicted or have lost control. I think of it rather as digging a little deeper for happyness.

 

[granrey]

I can't speak for the DR however if that is supposed to refer to S America as well it's greatly exaggerated. In my experience at the more traditional venues i.e. pure Latins: if someone is on a date you don't ask them for a dance but if they're not obviously with someone of the opposite sex then it's entirely acceptable and normal to ask for a dance. And if the dance goes well it's possible to ask for further dances. If the conversation is flowing it's even acceptable to ask for a phone number.

Yes as you state people do spend far more time talking and drinking with whoever they came with than they do at salsa scene type places but it's definitely not exactly as described above, which sounds like something from a society where sex outside marriage is taboo.

Sex outside marriage is not a taboo is actually very common.

However, I have explained this in other topics and I have seen my share amount of brawls for simple things.

Things have indeed changed and continue changing but jealousy, flirting, betrayal, cheating, confusion and many others will still be there. The ethiquete is meant to deal with these.

 

[azana]

On the other hand the middle of the road dancers, who are regulars but not hardcore tend to sustain far longer.

Oh dear, that sounds just like me

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Sure, it can be an emotional substitute, just like the "important" aspects of life can be a substitute as well: Having children can be an escape from a non-functional relationship or starting a new job can be an escape from realizing you're trapped. When we do something excessivly it doesn't simultaneiously mean we're addicted or have lost control. I think of it rather as digging a little deeper for happyness.

Well said. Even though I said many people use Salsa as an escape, I didn't mean to say it as a negative thing. It is just like any other activity we use to avoid doing something else or to have a good time. I don't know why people dance. I assume it's mostly to get out and do something social/physical. The Salsa scene is like a giant bubble that checks a lot of tickboxes. How many people can say they'd have the life they have now if they hadn't danced at all? I can't.

The scene is just not the place I'd go to for emotional support, that's all.

 

[Sabrosura]

I really like what you're saying but this is one aspect I see differently. Salsa maybe a pastime activity but it's just as important or superfluous as you make it. Characterizing it as an escape for even some does not do it justice.

Sure, it can be an emotional substitute, just like the "important" aspects of life can be a substitute as well: Having children can be an escape from a non-functional relationship or starting a new job can be an escape from realizing you're trapped. When we do something excessivly it doesn't simultaneiously mean we're addicted or have lost control. I think of it rather as digging a little deeper for happyness.

Well said. Even though I said many people use Salsa as an escape, I didn't mean to say it as a negative thing. It is just like any other activity we use to avoid doing something else or to have a good time. I don't know why people dance. I assume it's mostly to get out and do something social/physical. The Salsa scene is like a giant bubble that checks a lot of tickboxes. How many people can say they'd have the life they have now if they hadn't danced at all? I can't.

The scene is just not the place I'd go to for emotional support, that's all.

Except we have to remember there is always an "opportunity cost". So, assuming someone works a regular job, going dancing 4-5 times a week will not leave them with much time and energy (not necessarily just physical energy, but also mental/emotional energy) for other things -- which may (or may not) include: searching for/nurturing a romantic relationship, investing in real-life deep friendships, developing the necessary skills to get a more satisfying job/escape a bad financial situation, and simply having the time and emotional energy to be with oneself and assess what we really want out of life. And given that salsa is such a fun, pleasurable activity that seems to easily "check off all the boxes", it can easily become someone's "be-all-end-all", and then due to inertia it can lead to many years of going dancing several nights a week and congresses every month, until the person realizes (or not) they don't have any real friends, they don't have a life partner, and they don't have any truly meaningful life purpose.

Some may not care about any of that of course and may just feel happy with salsa taking the place of all those things - the so-called "hedonic happiness"; but if we look at the research on happiness, it's pretty clear that having meaningful close relationships, and some kind of deeper life purpose or meaning (which often also comes from having deep, committed, long-lasting relationships, whether with a romantic partner, children, or friends) is crucial for the deeper, more lasting kind of happiness (eudaimonic happiness).

 

[Offbeat]

Oh dear, that sounds just like me

most of us aren’t hardcore any more.

 

[Tom Schueler]

most of us aren’t hardcore any more.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Tom Schueler]

Except we have to remember there is always an "opportunity cost". So, assuming someone works a regular job, going dancing 4-5 times a week will not leave them with much time and energy (not necessarily just physical energy, but also mental/emotional energy) for other things -- which may (or may not) include: searching for/nurturing a romantic relationship, investing in real-life deep friendships, developing the necessary skills to get a more satisfying job/escape a bad financial situation, and simply having the time and emotional energy to be with oneself and assess what we really want out of life. And given that salsa is such a fun, pleasurable activity that seems to easily "check off all the boxes", it can easily become someone's "be-all-end-all", and then due to inertia it can lead to many years of going dancing several nights a week and congresses every month, until the person realizes (or not) they don't have any real friends, they don't have a life partner, and they don't have any truly meaningful life purpose.

Some may not care about any of that of course and may just feel happy with salsa taking the place of all those things - the so-called "hedonic happiness"; but if we look at the research on happiness, it's pretty clear that having meaningful close relationships, and some kind of deeper life purpose or meaning (which often also comes from having deep, committed, long-lasting relationships, whether with a romantic partner, children, or friends) is crucial for the deeper, more lasting kind of happiness (eudaimonic happiness).

I'd say 4-5 times a week searchingor/nurturing a romantic relationship, investing in friendships, developing the necessary skills to get a job, and simply having the time and emotional energy to be with oneself will not leave much time and energy to have a healthy, physical, social and meaningful salsa experience.

I get what you're saying but why should salsa be any less meaningful than anything else in this pointless life? Nobody says: Man, you going to your jogging group every second day does not leave you enough time for deeper experiences and healthy connections.

I will freely admit other things might make you happier in the long term but finding even one thing in life that makes that you feel better and pushes all your buttons is a a huge step already.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I will freely admit other things might make you happier in the long term but finding even one thing in life that makes that you feel better and pushes all your buttons is a a huge step already.

This is very true. I am grateful that I have a hobby (a passion really) that I enjoy whereas many people don't even have that and when you talk to people who are missing that passion in their life - even if they have a lot already - I feel for them as they are still missing that spark in their life.

Salsa in and of itself, is meaningful.

 

[1derpalm]

Oh dear, that sounds just like me

And I'm hardcore mindset with middle if the road talent.

 

[Smejmoon]

I see that people who are in good physical and mental shape can achieve all these checkboxes and more, and people who try too much sometimes burn out and crash terribly. All this from salsa scene. And yes, salsa can sometimes tick several checkboxes.

For me I substituted most of my strength training with dancing that requires mobility and got rid of backaches, so strength training is not necessary any more. 6-8 hours per week won, no more gym.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

For me I substituted most of my strength training with dancing that requires mobility and got rid of backaches, so strength training is not necessary any more. 6-8 hours per week won, no more gym.

Same! For me, I've found a training program involving dance movements that is more conducive to my lifestyle.

Plus, when I stopped going to the gym, people stopped asking me to help them move furniture. Another bonus!

 

[Smejmoon]

Same! For me, I've found a training program involving dance movements that is more conducive to my lifestyle.

Plus, when I stopped going to the gym, people stopped asking me to help them move furniture. Another bonus!

I have some heavy boxes with seasonal stuff at home that I move every few months, because what I need somehow is always at the bottom. While it's easy, I won't worry. I do pullups few times a week, when I walk past bars. In my regular clothing, without removing backpack, if I have it. Pullups is something that's hard to substitute in daily life since we climbed off trees. And they're great for spinal health.

 

[Offbeat]

I'd say 4-5 times a week searchingor/nurturing a romantic relationship, investing in friendships, developing the necessary skills to get a job, and simply having the time and emotional energy to be with oneself will not leave much time and energy to have a healthy, physical, social and meaningful salsa experience.

I get what you're saying but why should salsa be any less meaningful than anything else in this pointless life? Nobody says: Man, you going to your jogging group every second day does not leave you enough time for deeper experiences and healthy connections.

I will freely admit other things might make you happier in the long term but finding even one thing in life that makes that you feel better and pushes all your buttons is a a huge step already.

Spot on!

Not only salsa. People obsessed with any other hobby also spend invest time as a hardcore salser@. Many times it is at the expense of other things in life. Workaholics are worse! Living in silicon valley it is very common to come across people whose only life is working long hours (by choice). Their work-life balance is only work-work imbalance.

There was a time in early 2000s, when I stopped getting dinner delivered on Friday evenings in the company. Every Friday I personally walked through asking people to stop working and leave early. For four nights we used to get food delivered from some of the best restaurants around because there would be people still working at 7pm or 8pm. It is not that people were working harder by staying late.

For me my hardcore salsa days were some of the best. I would go dancing 3-4 nights a week plus additional day for 3-4 hours of practice/lessons the first two years). Since dancing didn't start till after 9.30pm there was plenty of time to do other things. During the first year of my hardcore salsa I ran marathon for the first time (I hate running) and in the second year half Ironman (triathlon). I was still playing soccer thrice a week and sometimes competitively in a league. In addition a very active social life unrelated to salsa, other things to pursue and made some great friends but none from the salsa world in the first three years. I had no time nor inclination to hang with salsa people. I remember only once going out with a few salsa folks for a weekend getaway to mountain resort and later getting involved in planning the first two bachata festivals in the USA.

From my observation back then, the people that had no life outside salsa were usually the ones who were on the performance teams. They practiced three or four times a week and mostly spend their time with each other as a result outside salsa too. Our scene had too many performance teams for its size.

 

[Sabrosura]

For me I substituted most of my strength training with dancing that requires mobility and got rid of backaches, so strength training is not necessary any more. 6-8 hours per week won, no more gym.

Strength training's biggest benefits are actually not about mobility (it can actually be terrible for joints/the back if someone doesn't use the right form, maybe that's actually the reason you were having back pains while you were still strength training) - the two biggest health benefits of strength training are: increasing/maintaining bone density, which reduces the risk of osteoporosis/falls as we age, and increasing/maintaining muscle mass, which also tends to decrease as we age (sarcopenia: we lose as much as 3% to 5% of muscle mass each decade after age 30, and with this muscle loss comes a host of other problems).

Dancing has great physical benefits (to me it is like a much more fun kind of interval training), but it is not a substitute for weight training (though of course, a dancer will be better off in terms of muscle/bone density than a sedentary person).

 

[Smejmoon]

Strength training's biggest benefits are actually not about mobility (it can actually be terrible for joints/the back if someone doesn't use the right form, maybe that's actually the reason you were having back pains while you were still strength training) - the two biggest health benefits of strength training are: increasing/maintaining bone density, which reduces the risk of osteoporosis/falls as we age, and increasing/maintaining muscle mass, which also tends to decrease as we age (sarcopenia: we lose as much as 3% to 5% of muscle mass each decade after age 30, and with this muscle loss comes a host of other problems).

Dancing has great physical benefits (to me it is like a much more fun kind of interval training), but it is not a substitute for weight training (though of course, a dancer will be better off in terms of muscle/bone density than a sedentary person).

I did strength training as a prophylaxis for back aches. Mobility also works for that goal. These were choices I came up working with PR. It's just that strength training is simpler, but dancing in a way that expands my mobility is complicated.
The point is - most of the time in the gym I considered wasted. Time I dance at home I consider spiritual growth.

And music is better, obv.

 

[Sabrosura]

Nobody says: Man, you going to your jogging group every second day does not leave you enough time for deeper experiences and healthy connections.

Hmm I don't think that on average jogging tends to become as much of someone's identity as salsa - it can, any hobby can of course, but salsa has a way of 'taking over your life' that other hobbies don't...plus an average gym session or jogging session takes less than an hour usually, while an average salsa session is at least 2 hours, and usually more.

And yes, someone who is spending most of their free time jogging falls into the same category as someone who spends of their free time dancing (or whatever else their 'addiction' is).

(PS I'm sensing some people are getting a bit defensive about this...when that happens it's a good opportunity for us to examine what the defensiveness really means...often it's coming from deeply hidden feelings/fears trying to come to the surface and spur us into action)

I get what you're saying but why should salsa be any less meaningful than anything else

Because the research (that I posted earlier about the two types of happiness) clearly shows so

Also, I am reminded now of the Palladium-era Nuyorican salseros I used to go dance with in Harlem a few years ago - most of them were not coming to the parties by themselves, they were coming with their spouse and/or close friends. As much as salsa had been - and continues to be, for those who are still alive - such a core part of their lives, they didn't sacrifice their relationships for it...