Music interpretation/authenticity debate [WAS: Ramblings]
- Thread starter ColdSalsero
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And the more people beating that same drum, the better, in my humble opinion!
Ya got that right !!
Well - those videos didn't impress me particularly.
The first is a choreographed dance (this much is clear because there's nobody else on the dance floor and they're facing the front)
The kids ... dance brilliantly, but they're kids, dancing choreography. And the superfast cali footwork in the second one is no more "interpreting the music" than masses of spins. It's just what's the main feature of columbian salsa, same as spins in NY style, circular motion in cuban, or large breaks in LA style.
The social dancing just looked to me like a lot of peopel shuffling about in closed hold at the end of a disco - if they weren't dancing to salsa music, they could have been dancing to anything.
I hope that those videos weren't the best you could do, because they're not very convincing.
The first is a choreographed dance (this much is clear because there's nobody else on the dance floor and they're facing the front)
The kids ... dance brilliantly, but they're kids, dancing choreography. And the superfast cali footwork in the second one is no more "interpreting the music" than masses of spins. It's just what's the main feature of columbian salsa, same as spins in NY style, circular motion in cuban, or large breaks in LA style.
The social dancing just looked to me like a lot of peopel shuffling about in closed hold at the end of a disco - if they weren't dancing to salsa music, they could have been dancing to anything.
I hope that those videos weren't the best you could do, because they're not very convincing.
[Mod announcement]
I've looked through the "Memorable Salsa Quotes" and "Ramblings" threads and decided to put the debate together in one place, under a more appropriate thread title. This means that some of the posts duplicate and the thread may be a bit confusing to read through retrospectively, but here we go
[/Mod announcement]
I've looked through the "Memorable Salsa Quotes" and "Ramblings" threads and decided to put the debate together in one place, under a more appropriate thread title. This means that some of the posts duplicate and the thread may be a bit confusing to read through retrospectively, but here we go
[/Mod announcement]
kbitten
Son Montuno
DJ Ara
maybe if you dont want to provide us with names of the international salsa gurus, as you named them, you can at least show us the ones you think are good???
I agree to coldsalsero's point that assuming they dont know what they are doing is just not the entire truth..if you see me dancing, you will noticed that I cant spin..but I know ALL the things that are wrong and what I should do to get it fixed, but I just dont do anything about it kkkk
so , maybe adolfo became recognized but his ability to do dance with lots of patterns etc, you know and he is travelling all over the world because of that..so if one day he decided to do a solo rumba performance, people maynot like it and decide not to call him anymore..so he keeps doing the things that made people want classes with him but thats not necessarily means he doesnt know other things ( thats just an example)
maybe if you dont want to provide us with names of the international salsa gurus, as you named them, you can at least show us the ones you think are good???
I agree to coldsalsero's point that assuming they dont know what they are doing is just not the entire truth..if you see me dancing, you will noticed that I cant spin..but I know ALL the things that are wrong and what I should do to get it fixed, but I just dont do anything about it kkkk
so , maybe adolfo became recognized but his ability to do dance with lots of patterns etc, you know and he is travelling all over the world because of that..so if one day he decided to do a solo rumba performance, people maynot like it and decide not to call him anymore..so he keeps doing the things that made people want classes with him but thats not necessarily means he doesnt know other things ( thats just an example)
I agree with KP. I mostly agreed with DJ Ara and took him seriously until those videos from Cali clubs, with some very uninspiring social dancing he obviously thinks we should find amazing. What, why?
I wouldn't find any of those clubs appealing, and I can't see how those people shuffling about in a very simple way would be seen as great dancers.
Looks to me like they're out there having a few beers, picking up women, listening to the music they grew up to. Nothing wrong with that, but as a non latino I'm actually interested in the challenge of dancing well, which obviously isn't their main focus.
Fast and precise footwork is nice, no objections, but I can't see why it would be superior those spins DJ Ara have such extreme issues with. I guess he doesn't like cross body style, OK.
Some international influential instructors and social dancers, let's pick for example Milton Cobo, Frankie Martinez, Eddie Torres, Fernando Sosa, Shaka Brown, Tito Ortos, Adolfo Indacochea. Are they clueless, dancing without regard to the music?
I wouldn't find any of those clubs appealing, and I can't see how those people shuffling about in a very simple way would be seen as great dancers.
Looks to me like they're out there having a few beers, picking up women, listening to the music they grew up to. Nothing wrong with that, but as a non latino I'm actually interested in the challenge of dancing well, which obviously isn't their main focus.
Fast and precise footwork is nice, no objections, but I can't see why it would be superior those spins DJ Ara have such extreme issues with. I guess he doesn't like cross body style, OK.
Some international influential instructors and social dancers, let's pick for example Milton Cobo, Frankie Martinez, Eddie Torres, Fernando Sosa, Shaka Brown, Tito Ortos, Adolfo Indacochea. Are they clueless, dancing without regard to the music?
Here is a bit of Cuban salsa. I have no idea who the dancers are but they look good, even if there is a little bit of a performance element, because they are being filmed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AUff-5yN2g&feature=related
And here is the Brisas club that every salsero who visits Cali should experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7kk2TTHVD8&feature=related
I hope you find the videos interesting.
Well the first cuban video is typical of what I see out dancing, so that should please you
The Cali video sorry but I found this pretty uninspiring although I'm sure the club has a nice atmosphere.
I'd add Magna Gopal who spins like a demon, but also has incredible musicality. I'm not knocking DJ Arca, because I suppose his intentions are good, but he's so extreme in his condemnation of everything that it's impossible to take him seriously without giving up dancing. And if those salsa club dancers are his idea of "incredible musicality" then I cease to understand what he wants to see.
Well the first cuban video is typical of what I see out dancing, so that should please you
The Cali video sorry but I found this pretty uninspiring although I'm sure the club has a nice atmosphere.
I'd also say that there's no difference - and no more musicality in that video - than in a similarly competent cross body dancer, you've just replaced the spins with arm movements and rotation. It's still all learned (you can't just go out there and do that on the dancefloor without begin taught, even if only taught informally), there's no hitting the breaks in the music and there's no changes of pace. The more I see, the more I wonder if this is all just an anti-X body thing from DJ Arca. He doesn't like seeing spinning .... full stop; equating spinning automatically with sterile, academic, learned choreography, when all it is is a different dance style.
In the same way that DJ Arca seems to look at New York style and see nothing but spinning, I can look at cali style and see nothing but superfast feet - that doesn't appear to be particularly musical to me, just fast footwork technique. I can look at a cuban dancer and see nothing but going round and round and round and round ... and round, with complicated arm knitting - again nothing inherently musical in it. However, I don't - I think it's a different dance style to mine, it involves different skills and is not inherently better or worse.
Ah, maybe that's part of the reason for our disagreement. Your observations are from the London scene more than 10 years ago. Mine are from dancing in many cities in Europe (including London) in the last 10 years.
matty
Son Montuno
i feel the need to come to the defence of cali here
during my visits to colombia, i found it to be a place which has a really relaxed and open positive attitude to salsa
and in my own experience i found them to welcome with open arms anyone who has any interest at all, and make you one of the family!
and i found from bogota to santa marta to cali and back , is that it doesnt matter how good or bad you are at dancing or what your definition of good & bad , are!
the important thing is enjoy yourself and enjoy the song. and not feel like you are being judged.
i even interviewed profesional salsa dancers there who told me this in person. i had pledged to record some dialogue with them before i went home but never got round to it unfortunatly.
in fact found the caleños whom i met to be very fond of the international (loads of turns) dance styles, and certainly no negativity at all towards it. they enjoy looking at it as much as anyone ! and often spoke very highly indeed about foreign dancers who exhibit moves that the caleños themselves are not used to seeing.
though when it comes to dancing, my girlfriend for example who is is caleña , exhibits the exact same preference as DJ Ara , in the sense that less is more and often says to me, nope, no turns for this song, she will instead sing along to the song and dance to it on a much more personal and subtle level which i wouldnt change for the world
however when i dance like that at home in ireland, the girls get uncomfortable because they are used to the more impersonal , swing me around but (dont get too close) style. lol
anyway the point i want to make, is that in my own humble and brief visits to colombia (3 months in total:to date, which isnt all that much i admit) i saw no negativity in colombia regarding salsa
now i say this as someone who has just a few years of experience, and very much a "salsa baby" compared to most of you here lol
but to hear statements as above it puts a downer on things to say the least
Jag75
Son Montuno
DJ Ara answer this question.
Do you consider dancers such as Oliver Pineda or Muaze clueless dancers who don't "get" the essence of salsa?
If so then our interpretations are far different and there'll be no point arguing anything with you, but simply accept that we have different expectations of the dance.
With what I see from Cuban dancers I could argue is very repetitive and I don't really see that much "interpretation" of the music from their partner dances. Sure it's a bit different when they Rumba solo, but then the same applies to linear dancers.
I'm always amazed at how well really good linear dancers interpret the music. Think Oliver Pineda, Magna Gopal, Victor, Burju etc.
Each has their preferences and to be honest I don't enjoy watching cuban salsa, nor do I get that much out of it when I dance it.
Each to their own but I think it's a bit harsh to describe the majority of linear dancers as "clowns".
Do you consider dancers such as Oliver Pineda or Muaze clueless dancers who don't "get" the essence of salsa?
If so then our interpretations are far different and there'll be no point arguing anything with you, but simply accept that we have different expectations of the dance.
With what I see from Cuban dancers I could argue is very repetitive and I don't really see that much "interpretation" of the music from their partner dances. Sure it's a bit different when they Rumba solo, but then the same applies to linear dancers.
I'm always amazed at how well really good linear dancers interpret the music. Think Oliver Pineda, Magna Gopal, Victor, Burju etc.
Each has their preferences and to be honest I don't enjoy watching cuban salsa, nor do I get that much out of it when I dance it.
Each to their own but I think it's a bit harsh to describe the majority of linear dancers as "clowns".
Jag75
Son Montuno
Ok I've checked out your links.
The first example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC09nvIW4RE&feature=related
In my opinion it's not mind-blowingly good - the music isn't really my type (too fast, not enough "feel" imho) so naturally the dance is a bit lacking in "sabor" - sure it could be due to good interpretation of the music but as a whole it doesn't really do anything for me.
Kids performances: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrtDJ-I7htg&feature=related
Amazing ability - wow! Notice thought that it's solo, which is naturally a bit more expressive anyway. Again not my style as I find the fast music lacks the smooth feel I'm used to - again this is a personal thing and it's not due to me enjoying watching what you call "ballroom" dancers looking like clowns. Again each to their own.
Some salsa party dancing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTov0kKuQgg&feature=related
Sure looks like fun, but honestly - these people are very causal dancers who imho actually do lack a bit of "feel" for the music. The dancing isn't as creative (creativity is an element of interpretation and opposite of choreography) as what I find from really seasoned dancers here in Sydney and NYC.
You argued that Salsa is imported - WRONG.
I've argued with others about this but the REALITY is that whilst the music and roots are indeed from Cuba, salsa itself was nurtured in NYC from Cubans and Puerto Ricans in New York. The original dance from Cuba was actually Son, combined with some bomba y plena, guaguanco, and bolero. The "Salsa" dance was nurtured and evolved in NYC combining elements of swing and jazz, and a little bit of hustle.
Also, go to Puerto Rico - their salsa is "authentic", but the Cuban's will scoff at that - and vice versa. Go to Columbia - their salsa is "authentic" and apparently only they know how to dance it properly, and only they have "sabor", but the Cubans and Puerto Rican's would think their kidding themsleves. Who's right? The Cubans? The Puerto Ricans? You?
The first example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC09nvIW4RE&feature=related
In my opinion it's not mind-blowingly good - the music isn't really my type (too fast, not enough "feel" imho) so naturally the dance is a bit lacking in "sabor" - sure it could be due to good interpretation of the music but as a whole it doesn't really do anything for me.
Kids performances: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrtDJ-I7htg&feature=related
Amazing ability - wow! Notice thought that it's solo, which is naturally a bit more expressive anyway. Again not my style as I find the fast music lacks the smooth feel I'm used to - again this is a personal thing and it's not due to me enjoying watching what you call "ballroom" dancers looking like clowns. Again each to their own.
Some salsa party dancing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTov0kKuQgg&feature=related
Sure looks like fun, but honestly - these people are very causal dancers who imho actually do lack a bit of "feel" for the music. The dancing isn't as creative (creativity is an element of interpretation and opposite of choreography) as what I find from really seasoned dancers here in Sydney and NYC.
You argued that Salsa is imported - WRONG.
I've argued with others about this but the REALITY is that whilst the music and roots are indeed from Cuba, salsa itself was nurtured in NYC from Cubans and Puerto Ricans in New York. The original dance from Cuba was actually Son, combined with some bomba y plena, guaguanco, and bolero. The "Salsa" dance was nurtured and evolved in NYC combining elements of swing and jazz, and a little bit of hustle.
Also, go to Puerto Rico - their salsa is "authentic", but the Cuban's will scoff at that - and vice versa. Go to Columbia - their salsa is "authentic" and apparently only they know how to dance it properly, and only they have "sabor", but the Cubans and Puerto Rican's would think their kidding themsleves. Who's right? The Cubans? The Puerto Ricans? You?
timberamayor
Son Montuno
In the UK article discussion people were talking about instructors using chachacha and some sort of R&B etc, i.e. non-salsa music to teach salsa 
. I don't know of anyone who does that in Sweden and I don't know how widespread that may be in the UK or other places. But would think that people who love salsa would all agree that a good teacher will teach the dance to the appropriate music so their students are totally lost when they finally start going out. I also assume that none of us would like to see teachers who only have a superficial understanding of the dance/music out there giving classes. An example: I have been told on a few occasions that I should teach classes. Inside I was laughing to myself and thinking "this person doesn't know much about salsa" but of course I didn't say that. I just politely thanked them and offered to put them in touch with the people who taught me. It just would never occur to me to teach, even if I could do it for at least a beginners class, when the originals are out there. It's like that game where you whisper something in someone's ear and by the time it gets around the circle it's not what it started out as. So if someone likes my dancing they should go to the source.
DJ Ara is being discreet by not naming names, but I doubt he is thinking of people like Magna Gopal and Frankie Martinez. Then again who knows?
One of the main things to keep in mind is that all the dance styles have a different aesthetic so what a casinero wants to see and experience in a dance is not the same as xbody or Cali and vice versa. This is IMO why we can look at videos of other style that other people like and think, eh...that looks boring to me. As Jag75 says
So we all need to perhaps be a little less quick to criticize a style just because it's something we "don't get". The true fans of that style are better judges of whether there is musicality going on there. Although I agree we all are entitled to our own opinion, but no one likes to hear something they value and love be insulted.
As I've mentioned the first person who taught me some salsa steps was Colombian but from Bogotá and danced what some people might call "cumbia style salsa". One night we were at a club here in Stockholm and a girl was dancing by herself and I said "Is she dancing right?" and his answer was "If you're having fun you're dancing right, if you're not having fun you're dancing wrong".
Now that might sound like "oh well that's the kind of thing people who can't really dance would say" but I think it is an important philosophical difference between the "native" salsa countries where the music and dance are more deeply ingrained into the indigenous culture, and others where to make salsa interesting it has to be about competition and performance and flash.
What Matty was saying about Cali salsa, and less being more, that's also true in Cuba to some extent. I'm can't lead but a friend of mine who is married to a Cuban dancer and visits Cuba every year once told me that in Cuba the ladies don't like it if the guy launches into turn patterns after a few claves. Here it's very common that you just start your dance with a couple of basic steps in closed position and then straight to the turns. But he said that the Cuban women expect a man to also be able to lead well in closed position and still make the dance interesting. So they expect a fair amount of closed position dancing, which might seem quite boring to us here in Sweden (especially if seen on youtube) because what we think is the cool part of dancing is the turns.
. I don't know of anyone who does that in Sweden and I don't know how widespread that may be in the UK or other places. But would think that people who love salsa would all agree that a good teacher will teach the dance to the appropriate music so their students are totally lost when they finally start going out. I also assume that none of us would like to see teachers who only have a superficial understanding of the dance/music out there giving classes. An example: I have been told on a few occasions that I should teach classes. Inside I was laughing to myself and thinking "this person doesn't know much about salsa" but of course I didn't say that. I just politely thanked them and offered to put them in touch with the people who taught me. It just would never occur to me to teach, even if I could do it for at least a beginners class, when the originals are out there. It's like that game where you whisper something in someone's ear and by the time it gets around the circle it's not what it started out as. So if someone likes my dancing they should go to the source.DJ Ara is being discreet by not naming names, but I doubt he is thinking of people like Magna Gopal and Frankie Martinez. Then again who knows?
One of the main things to keep in mind is that all the dance styles have a different aesthetic so what a casinero wants to see and experience in a dance is not the same as xbody or Cali and vice versa. This is IMO why we can look at videos of other style that other people like and think, eh...that looks boring to me. As Jag75 says
And that's pretty much how I feel about xbody salsa. I can on an intellectual level see when a person is doing better or worse dancing, but it doesn't excite emotions in me.
So we all need to perhaps be a little less quick to criticize a style just because it's something we "don't get". The true fans of that style are better judges of whether there is musicality going on there. Although I agree we all are entitled to our own opinion, but no one likes to hear something they value and love be insulted.
As I've mentioned the first person who taught me some salsa steps was Colombian but from Bogotá and danced what some people might call "cumbia style salsa". One night we were at a club here in Stockholm and a girl was dancing by herself and I said "Is she dancing right?" and his answer was "If you're having fun you're dancing right, if you're not having fun you're dancing wrong".
Now that might sound like "oh well that's the kind of thing people who can't really dance would say" but I think it is an important philosophical difference between the "native" salsa countries where the music and dance are more deeply ingrained into the indigenous culture, and others where to make salsa interesting it has to be about competition and performance and flash.
What Matty was saying about Cali salsa, and less being more, that's also true in Cuba to some extent. I'm can't lead but a friend of mine who is married to a Cuban dancer and visits Cuba every year once told me that in Cuba the ladies don't like it if the guy launches into turn patterns after a few claves. Here it's very common that you just start your dance with a couple of basic steps in closed position and then straight to the turns. But he said that the Cuban women expect a man to also be able to lead well in closed position and still make the dance interesting. So they expect a fair amount of closed position dancing, which might seem quite boring to us here in Sweden (especially if seen on youtube) because what we think is the cool part of dancing is the turns.
When I watched this one I could not believe link is coming from DJ Ara.
I can see many things you oppose from very start. Many local salsa schools put on similar shows and I try to leave the venue.Same as above and I don't believe music is out of sync in both videos. What in their dancing is related to the music in background? Tempo?
Sweet dancing and most international salsa champions are capable of that and more. Or less.
Yes, but not only they illustrate opposite of your point, it's hard to understand what your point is, since they are rather different.I hope you find the videos interesting.
Also looking at perma-smile of male dancer I put my dollar that he's former performance dancer
timberamayor
Son Montuno
No Cuban of my acquaintance scoff at NY or PR salsa. I don't recall ever talking about Colombian salsa with them. You hear PR and a bit of NY in Cuba. The musicians I've talked to who have been on tour have found it interesting to watch people dancing other styles even if they personally prefer to dance their own, they don't talk bad about the xbody dancers.
I have seen Cubans talk trash about other styles/music on-line, but these are Cubans living outside of Cuba and to be honest it's probably partially a response to people criticizing Cuban style dance and music (there was a lot of that on-line about 5-10 years ago which is why I started the Timba Geeks group at Yahoo), and also partially a need to stake their claim to something that is culturally significant to them as a part of maintaining their Cuban identity when outside the country.
From what I have gathered, its not uncommon in the UK
Interesting example, we'd have to disagree on that one. I don't like Magna's dancing at all, I find her dancing the same playful way regardless of the mood and emotional content of the music, just hitting the the breaks isn't true musicality as far as I'm concerned. Regarding her I'd rather side with DJ Ara.
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