Marakkesh review and instructor observations (was: My SR observations)

olamalam

olamalam

Son Montuno
My SR observations

After gossiping about SR too much here I really was looking forward to meet these guys. Finally I met them in Marakkesh festival.

First of all Tomas is a great instructor! he breaks down moves very well and explains leading&following technique very detailly. even if Tomas accepts that their education is too much spin oriented, their routine (in an advanced workshop) didnt include too many multiple spins (only first move was a double spin as warm up) which was good for me as i prefer smoother dance to aggressive spin oriented dance. He also accepts that education in SR is quite strict!*

On the other hand, their show didn't impress me that much, it was ok with many turn patterns.*

As for social dancing, i still dont like the way Tomas dances. I'm more fan of Victor (&Burju) and Cobo brothers.*
While dancing with SR ladies, I noticed the same spinning expected dancing in them. they are great followers of course but they were very stable during the dance, always expecting/prepared for multiple spins. in some moves they anticipated and did some extra spins. (btw they spin so well and more important than that, they can stop themselves so sharp)*
 
How was the congress overall?

FYI every dancer at SR has a very unique dance style. I'd look to Edwin Tolentino as the best example, but there are plenty outside of him.
 
opm1s6 said:
FYI every dancer at SR has a very unique dance style.
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This is how supposed to be. However, from the discussions in the forum, I got a feeling that SR people stick to SR classes religiously, so it's quite difficult to have different styles. If I lived in NY, I would attend all those famous salsa schools classes so far.

opm1s6 said:
How was the congress overall?
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It was in a very luxury holiday resort.
Pool parties with live music.
Line up was very good. All the confirmed artists were there:
http://www.salsafestival-marrakech.com/artistes.php?lang=en
Level was quite good.
Very cheap. We bought group ticket with 6 people and paid 240 euros each for full pass ticket and 4 nights accomodation! (Only Full pass ticket was 150 euros, 4 nights stay was 90 euros!)
Festival team arranged airport transfer and city tours.
Especially Saturday night musics were so good.
Lots of opportunity to dance with "stars".

My only negative feedback will be the floor. I haven't seen more slippery floor before. Most of the times I danced with my trainers.

Ahh one more thing, I watched Luis Vazquez social dancing. :eek: Why he is dancing like that??? :)
 
tresto said:
does "why is he dancing like that" mean good or bad ?
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He was dancing like super crazy intermediate leader. Close your eyes and imagine a guy, opened his feet and standing still, slightly bended forward upper body and spinning girls with once right and and then left hand and then a cross body and get to the same position and repeat similar spins.
In the class he told us to keep stepping while spinning ladies as every instructor does but he wasn't doing it himself and he has posture problem.
If I haven't watched his show and attended his class, noone could convince me that he was a famous dancer.

I'll check youtube as well when I find time.
 
olamalam said:
He was dancing like super crazy intermediate leader.
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Luis is an excellent teacher who has done a lot to develop salsa internationally over the past 20+ years, and also happens to be a decent guy. I can almost guarantee that you would not have even heard the word 'salsa' without his contribution. Who are you exactly, and why are you criticising his social dancing? You're not a consumer of it in any sense:

1) you have never danced with him. i have, many times, and can assure you that he's way better to dance with than you - and, more importantly, better to dance with than more than half of the sleb leads out there. his lead is clear and never rough, great eye contact, playfulness, musicality, passion, desire to show the woman a good time, leaves her space to style, wide range of moves, etc. performing is about looking good, but social dancing is about making your partner feel good.

2) Luis sells shows and classes. feel free to criticise either or both. we all enjoy watching and commenting on people's social dancing, but as consumers we only have the right to plunge ahead hurtfully on the stuff people put out there for consumption, not on their private moments of enjoyment. (and decent people try to criticise the public stuff constructively). it's like b*tching about a rock star's love life - people do it, but there's no unselfish justification for it.

worse again to criticise a sleb for not being snobbish and making the effort to get out there and dance with as many non-slebs as possible. of course those dances are going to look worse than dances with great dancers, and so is the sleb themselves, since they may not be inspired and are likely to be compensating for their partner's mistakes.

would you rather have someone who, although fit, is well over 40 and has spent the past 20 years on planes, in airports, training, teaching, practicing and performing, who probably hasnt slept 3 hours per night during the event, stand relatively still to save energy and let the woman move around him in order to make the weekend for 60 star-struck fans; or do three 'showcase' social dances with their partner, then hit the bar or hotel room?

you yourself regularly reap the rewards of such unselfishness on the part of famous female dancers, and are thrilled by it, so it seems particularly churlish to criticise someone for being generous with their time...as well as allowing dancing with tons of intermediates to negatively affect their social dancing.

teaching and performing salsa does not make one 'public property' and give anyone the right to say what they like about someone's non-teaching, non-performing behaviour. i'm very confident indeed that this is not something you'd go up to Luis and say to his face, so why chisme behind his back? be careful before you say "yes you would say it to him", or i'll be giving you his phone number and letting him know exactly what you're just about to call and tell him, with the benefit of your boundless salsa wisdom... :D
 
I don't really like his general style, but that's just personal preference and from what I've seen he doesn't look like an amateur either. Maybe you just caught him on an "off" moment, he's just as human as all of us.
 
TrulyMadlyAmanda said:
besides, doesnt this thread belong in 'member reviews' anyway, please moderators...? :)
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Moderators note: The thread has been as suggested been moved into the 'Members Review' section and also been retitled to match the content, which looks more like a discussion of the festival itself as well as the observations about at least two instructors.
 
TMA,

Calm down once more :)

First of all, I didn't claim that I can dance better than Luis Vazquez. It would be funny. It is as childish as saying that dancing with Melissa Fernandez feels much better than Amanda. You haven't said that you are better. Btw, I felt flattered since you compared me with Luis. Yes, you think that he is better than me but it's ok for now as I've been dancing only for 1,5 years.

Also I didn't tell that I'm a super wise salsa dancer. I wrote that, he told us to keep stepping while spinning but he wasn't doing it. Knowledge is his own knowledge. I'm sure he would also say that you shouldn't open your feet too much and you shouldn't bend your body forward too much which will cause posture problem.

Yes, my criticism was a bit cruel to be honest. I guess my expectation was too much after watching his show and he doesn't have to satify me with his social dancing of course.

I'm planning to post my video to here to ask for criticism from SF members. When I do, feel free to criticise me as hard as you can. I'll be glad. Btw, you've danced with me, I'll be happy if you can criticise me without waiting for the video. The more cruel your criticism is, the more beneficial for me. (but don't do it under this thread, it's not the right thread.)

Feel free to send this url to Luis if you want him to take part in the discussion.
 
Everyone can choose to dance and lead differently from what they teach. This past Saturday I had a couple crazy dances. You would look at me and say that guy is doing nothing about what he teaches. I felt like letting go in a different way, and that was and is my perogative and has nothing to do with what I teach. I usually don't dance like that, but we all have our moods and decide on changing things. However, I do it knowing that I am doing it and why. That is the difference between someone who just dances because that is how they dance, or because they cannot dance differently and someone who conciously does something.

And, there are those who are not happy unless you lead them a certain way. There is one lady who wants certain things in a cha cha cha, another two who are unhappy unless I spin them like crazy as they want and love spinning. So the people whom you dance with can also limit and restrict what you do.

Couple things to keep in mind.
 
olamalam said:
Btw, I felt flattered since you compared me with Luis.

Yes, my criticism was a bit cruel to be honest.

I'm planning to post my video to here to ask for criticism from SF members. When I do, feel free to criticise me as hard as you can. I'll be glad. Btw, you've danced with me, I'll be happy if you can criticise me without waiting for the video. The more cruel your criticism is, the more beneficial for me. (but don't do it under this thread, it's not the right thread.)

Feel free to send this url to Luis if you want him to take part in the discussion.
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1) flattered? you shouldnt be. the only reason the comparison was made, was to point out how completely unqualified you are to post scathing, unsolicited criticism of other people's social dancing. "a cat can look at a queen", as the saying goes, but if it takes a dump in the middle of the room then someone's entitled to shoo the little pest out with a broom.

2) youre right, it was a bit cruel. and completely unnecessary and unjustified. awaiting your apology (in case Luis happens past this thread, im sure he'll appreciate it)

3) i sincerely hope youre not comparing you as a relative beginner seeking peer criticism and hoping to get honest feedback, with your attention-seeking by randomly slating a well-respected salsa celebrity behind their back? Luis should be thrilled to receive your unsolicited, unqualified, unconstructive criticism on a public forum, is that your idea? if you want my feedback on a video or your live dancing, im more than happy to provide it. PM me, and i'll provide you with a schedule of my fees for live or online private classes. plus a list of rules about the respect i provide my students and vice versa...which ive never yet had to write down or vocalise in advance.

4) you want to choose who/where criticism of your dancing occurs, whilst not affording that opportunity to others...? :confused:

5) i like Luis. why on earth would i want to expose him to your snide sniggering behind his back? my point - that you said things here which you would never have gone up and said to the person's face - absolutely still stands. if you then make sure - in a cowardly way, through a third party - that the person youre gossiping about knows it, it's not from any admirable reasons of straightforwardness, or good values.

6) your assessment of my dancing versus Meli's or anyone else's has nothing to do with this discussion, and is merely yet another of your passive-aggressive little digs. i'm putting you on notice now, in front of countless witnesses: if you pinch my arm or hip (or indeed any other part of my body) in an overfamiliar, borderline-violent-masquerading-as-friendly way again, as you have been since we started having disagreements here, i will punch you. as hard as i am able. if you run snivelling to the police crying assault, i have proven grounds for provocation.

this should be completely unnecessary, but unfortunately since you seem to have no boundaries whatsoever, so it is - don't touch me at all. for any reason whatsoever, including dancing.
 
...and breathe out. i'm sorry to have been so blunt, olamalam.

kindness is one of the values i most believe in...to the point that random, unprovoked cruelty enrages me til i become careless of whether im being kind myself. im sure if i knew the underlying causes of the issues that lead you to make cruel remarks, you deserve my sympathy rather than sharp remarks.

i stand by the points i made, but apologise for not having found a kinder, more tactful way to express them.
 
olamalam said:
This is how supposed to be. However, from the discussions in the forum, I got a feeling that SR people stick to SR classes religiously, so it's quite difficult to have different styles. If I lived in NY, I would attend all those famous salsa schools classes so far.
Click to expand...

As far as partnerwork classes, there isn't any place better, or more structured than SR, so why would we go any other place? Their level of difficulty challenges leads in a way no other school can in the world and their ability to teach technique from the ground up molds you from one level to the next in a way no other school does in NY. It's actually more of a university than a dance company and it's the reason why you have so many of the top schools having come from SR. That said, this level of difficulty doesn't always translate to the social dance floor in exactly the from it's taught. It's one thing to understand the fundamentals and master the techniques, it's another to apply them in your own way socially. Much time is spent developing our own patterns and styles, because their is almost an internal competitiveness about coming up with your own stuff and being different. I personally think it's very healthy and very few of their dancers use the patterns that Tomas himself uses socially.

Where's lurker when I need him to explain properly what I can't.
 
You don't need Lurker to explain anything
Bottom line: If you don't like them, fine go ahead and continue with your awesome schools and become the best dancer that you can be (which I doubt you'll ever be), and SR peeps will continue to go to SR and be awesome dancers whether they like it or not.

THE END
 
opm1s6 said:
As far as partnerwork classes, there isn't any place better, or more structured than SR, so why would we go any other place? Their level of difficulty challenges leads in a way no other school can in the world and their ability to teach technique from the ground up molds you from one level to the next in a way no other school does in NY. It's actually more of a university than a dance company and it's the reason why you have so many of the top schools having come from SR. That said, this level of difficulty doesn't always translate to the social dance floor in exactly the from it's taught. It's one thing to understand the fundamentals and master the techniques, it's another to apply them in your own way socially. Much time is spent developing our own patterns and styles, because their is almost an internal competitiveness about coming up with your own stuff and being different. I personally think it's very healthy and very few of their dancers use the patterns that Tomas himself uses socially.
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Having attended their workshop, I think that they might be the best school in NY. (Even if I don't like their focusing on spinning too much.) However, this doesn't mean that you can't benefit from other schools as well. I would stick to Eddie Torres for sometime to improve my basics for instance. Or Baila Society for partner work. Why not? I can understand not going to Yamulee. After Zurich congress, I'm not attending their workshops. (not breaking down the moves or shines, changing the routine in the middle of the class, not explaining the details, not caring if we are doing right or not. Whereas, Tomas and 2 assistant of him were always watching us and correcting our mistakes.)

In London, LDA (Latin dance academy) used to be the best salsa school (it doesn't exist anymore) with Mario and Guy Lawrance. Good instruction, well structured etc. However, TNTdance helped me more to improve my partner work and on2 timing. Or Miguel&Mayana is the only couple to focus on musicality and styling in partnerwork. Or thanks to Shelley (Pexava), since I always listen to her tips for ladies, I started following with lots of prior knowledge. Or thanks to Irene Miguel for the shines she taught. Coming back to LDA, weirdly, more than half of moves are "Super Mario" moves :)

opm1s6 said:
Where's lurker when I need him to explain properly what I can't.
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lol. He can join us if he likes :)
 
Btw, even if Mario is known to be the best instructor in the UK, he is inviting international instructors from abroad once a month to instruct in his school.
 
I tend to avoid teachers who don't dance the way they teach or don't dance much at all. Except if they understand and can explain what they teach. Explain why it should work, the mechanics behind the moves, why choose this not other approach. I know of one exception where a good lead very rarely dances and he does it sloppy compared to his teaching.

Another BS indicator is teachers who mostly dance with their partners (who tend to be pro dancers), don't show what they teach at real speed, or at the real speed they mess up or do something else. Many famous performers/instructors do like that. Won't call names, not to unleash some wrath. ;)

Quite a bit of moves I know are "experimental" until they work with people who don't know them, until they work with someone in the different country in the first dance. Something was not explained in the class or required follows to be there as well.
 
olamalam said:
Having attended their workshop, I think that they might be the best school in NY. (Even if I don't like their focusing on spinning too much.) However, this doesn't mean that you can't benefit from other schools as well. I would stick to Eddie Torres for sometime to improve my basics for instance. Or Baila Society for partner work. Why not? I can understand not going to Yamulee. After Zurich congress, I'm not attending their workshops. (not breaking down the moves or shines, changing the routine in the middle of the class, not explaining the details, not caring if we are doing right or not. Whereas, Tomas and 2 assistant of him were always watching us and correcting our mistakes.)
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I go to other schools on occasion because I agree you can benefit from being exposed to different styles. I appreciate living in NYC and the fact I can easily get quality instruction from renowned salsa teachers. However the only school I go to on a consistent basis is Santo Rico because of the structure of the program. Since the classes are 3-month cycles, it keeps you dedicated and you won't want to miss a class. The fact there are clear objective goals (move up to the next level) motivates me to work hard. And the instructors give you such great feedback on exactly what you need to do to improve. On their website, they guarantee a student's progress if that person attends class consistently, and they're right.

When I do go to other schools, it's mostly for ladies styling classes, or partnerwork classes that teach styling for the followers' part... classes that will help me develop my individual flavor. I don't do too many pure partnerwork classes 'cause I don't want my spinning technique to be messed with (unless its BaSO which employs the same technique).
 
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