To expand on that little bit… A good teacher will know when it's time to start correcting one particular aspect of my dance I think. I trust my instructor not too overwhelm me with technique that I'm not ready to start working on. and I feel like we have a pretty good working relationship. So that at this point, I can listen to 10 minutes of "your raising his shoulder again"… "your raising your shoulder again"…
Male or Female Instructor for beginner lead?
- Thread starter tripleg
- Start date
DJ Ara
Son Montuno
Yes, he or she can, but given the choice I would still choose a woman to tell me how to lead. By the same token, an experienced "casanova" can give some good advice to an inexperienced guy on how to satisfy a woman, but at the end of the day the best advice and 'insider' tips can only come from a woman.
Big10
Son
For a well-trained, thoughtful, and experienced instructor, I don't think that gender matters very much. However, if I had to cite a couple of potential differences, for one I would say that it's likely for the male instructor to have more experience dancing socially, and could possibly give more practical advice on issues of leading socially/floorcraft (with the exception being any female instructor who dances a lot with her female students in social settings). On the other side, a female instructor can give a follower a more visually "relatable" demonstration of female styling. (I give my female students various examples of styling, but I can sometimes see it "click" better when they watch a woman even if she's doing the exact same thing that I did.)
It's a great way of not being like a plank! That and and spend one of your privates on body movement.
UnlikelySalsero
Changui
I'd go with a female to start, then after 6-12 months, add or switch to a male. (They do have a different perspective, so over time both are helpful.)
There are plenty of male instructors who also follow well and/or had a female as one of their primary influences. That works too.
As a generalization: Female instructors will first tune your lead, which gets you more good dances. Follows first want you to make them look good, and have a clear, comfortable lead.
If you look great too, that's a bonus. That will develop too if you're getting lots of dances with the stronger follows.
@The Unlikely Salsero -
Thanks for your tips! I just spent and hour and a half reading your blog, went to check my email and saw your reply here!
@ Everybody -
Thank you for your input. This has been very helpful to me. I think the consensus is more or less to start with a female instructor and that's what I am going to do.
I've sampled group classes all over NYC, probably 6 different studios so far. I want to try them all just to get a sense of what's out there
I am "feeling" Frankie Martinez's style and choice in music, so I asked the studio to call Lori - Frankie's dance partner - for privates. They left her a voicemail I but haven't heard from her. In case Lori is unavailable or if it's a mismatch of personalities, I have a few other options in mind, and this brings me to my next question:
Will it make a big difference if the instructor is from a different school and teaches a different style or is it simply that the basics are the basics and it wouldn't matter for a beginner?
Thanks for your tips! I just spent and hour and a half reading your blog, went to check my email and saw your reply here!
@ Everybody -
Thank you for your input. This has been very helpful to me. I think the consensus is more or less to start with a female instructor and that's what I am going to do.
I've sampled group classes all over NYC, probably 6 different studios so far. I want to try them all just to get a sense of what's out there
I am "feeling" Frankie Martinez's style and choice in music, so I asked the studio to call Lori - Frankie's dance partner - for privates. They left her a voicemail I but haven't heard from her. In case Lori is unavailable or if it's a mismatch of personalities, I have a few other options in mind, and this brings me to my next question:Will it make a big difference if the instructor is from a different school and teaches a different style or is it simply that the basics are the basics and it wouldn't matter for a beginner?
Just as an example: Frankie doesn't seem to like the "closed position" at all and seems to have his own views on how one should step the basic (not always on your "paws"). While other schools stress staying your "paws" and work a lot in the "closed position."
These are just a few of my impressions so far and I hope I didn't misrepresent anything. Please feel free to correct me.
These are just a few of my impressions so far and I hope I didn't misrepresent anything. Please feel free to correct me.
UnlikelySalsero
Changui
I can't comment on different schools since we don't have that situation here in LA. In theory the basics should be similar, but it's been implied that each school has it's own following.
I'll be curious to hear about your progress in a few months. Please let us know how it goes.
Sabrosura
Son Montuno
@ Everybody -
Thank you for your input. This has been very helpful to me. I think the consensus is more or less to start with a female instructor and that's what I am going to do.
I've sampled group classes all over NYC, probably 6 different studios so far. I want to try them all just to get a sense of what's out there
That's great that you are taking Frankie's classes while you are still in NY. I attend his classes pretty regularly, he is my favorite teacher.
You can try contacting Lori directly through her Facebook account.
I just started taking the body movement class as well. It's really awesome.
From my limited perspective it seems to me that Frankie has gone off on his own a bit in creating a Salsa style that is unique. All the other schools I've visited so far do things similar to each other and a bit dissimilar to Frankie. So my concern as a beginner is that if I learn to do things Frankie's way there won't be many others on the social scene who do it that way. Perhaps this is a silly concern? I have never been out social dancing yet
Somebody set me straight, please.As another example, in Frankie's classes the man points his middle and ring fingers down and his pinky and index finger forward and the lady wraps around her fingers (sans thumb) around the gentleman's down-pointing fingers. Other schools teach the more "traditional" ways.
===
P.S. I said I may have to go to San Francisco. It's for a job, but I don't have to take the job. So I might end up staying in NYC.
Well, if you learn to dance like Frankie, I think you won't have any problem on the social scene. However, within a year or so you there isn't much chance that you can come come even close and for me it's hard to predict the result. I saw him live on the floor only once and ... well ... I really respect him, but I didn't get any inspiration to try to copy his style. Simply, he has entirely different approach to dance
As about your question regarding different schools/instructors, yes, they are all teaching basically the same things, but when you start going into details, there are big differences in understanding how to dance particular moves, methods of teaching, quality of teaching and all other things. It was the same in ballroom that I danced previously, although it is more standardized than salsa. Dance is a complex subject. However, I think it is good to try different teachers and try to get the best things from them and finally synthetise all that into your own style. Just don't get confused because of number of contradictory information in that case ...
As about your question regarding different schools/instructors, yes, they are all teaching basically the same things, but when you start going into details, there are big differences in understanding how to dance particular moves, methods of teaching, quality of teaching and all other things. It was the same in ballroom that I danced previously, although it is more standardized than salsa. Dance is a complex subject. However, I think it is good to try different teachers and try to get the best things from them and finally synthetise all that into your own style. Just don't get confused because of number of contradictory information in that case ...
Yeah ... good question - I will answer this way - on the same floor (it was on the medium size congress) there were several noname dancers that I liked more and would like to dance like them - can't explain why. Maybe just a personality mismatch or something like that. Frankie's skills are not in question
Will do!
Thinking a bit more about what I don't like on Frankie ... I suppose it is because he usually doesn't move much during the dance (social dance I mean). There is a youtube video of him dancing cha cha and I think he didn't cover the distance 5m in total during the whole dance. On the other side, dancers of various genres usually do move much when dancing. But, Frankie has really great and precise control of his body, his body movement is superb so his dancing looks great overall.
However, achieving similar quality of body movement is close to impossible for most people, while it isn't hard to copy the part of non moving much on the floor ... so I'm afraid that it will be the result of trying to copy his style for most people
However, achieving similar quality of body movement is close to impossible for most people, while it isn't hard to copy the part of non moving much on the floor ... so I'm afraid that it will be the result of trying to copy his style for most people
Sabrosura
Son Montuno
Interesting comments, especially the last one about what happens when people try to copy him.
I've watched several such leads try to dance like him and I actually think where they fail (besides the body movement which is a work in progress for everyone) is that they do not grasp the way in which he moves from the "center"--all his movements start in his "center" and continue naturally through his whole body as he moves, which give his movement a very sharp yet at the same time flowing look, and there is never even the smallest unbalanced or uncentered movement. Most people not only do not do this, but they do not even notice it is what drives all his movement because it's not an obvious detail if you don't know what to look for. If you do know to look for it, it's really interesting to watch and compare with other dancers' movement.
As a side note, I personally hate dancing with leads who make me cover large distances across the slot or elsewhere, because that forces me to take bigger steps than I would normally, so instead of focusing on "dancing" I have to focus on taking unnaturally large steps--so Cuban motion, etc. is compromised.
My comments to your comments...For me, dancing cha cha is different than dancing salsa, you "groove" a lot more to a cha cha than to a salsa. He generally moves more when he dances salsa compared to cha cha. For example, look at this recent dance from Rome.
http://salsaforums.com/threads/matched-energy-frankie-again.20729/
Sharp/flowing appearance of his movements is also caused by big difference in speed of some movements and intentionally sharply slowing down /speeding up in the middle of some movements. Needs much more energy than it looks like when watching the dancer, and of course, great coordination (he probably used much of that when training martial arts). Most salsa dancers I know are quite single-speeded, so those can't come close to Frankie's style. This is also frequently used in b/room latin, especially rumba, which is very boring otherwise (to dance and to watch)
As about length of the steps, of course I try to feel limits of my partner and not force her over it, so if she likes to dance without much moving and with more styling etc, I don't push it. And of course, if the floor is crowded, I try to dance within small slot. Anyway, I personally like to move myself across the floor and to dance with the girl that can move. Some girls can move a lot without appearing rushed. Also, I prefer the cuban motion to be a result of moving, and not only a result of statical weight transfer when stepping almost at the same place - feels way better and more natural to me. So within certain limits, cuban motion won't be compromised with slightly longer steps (for instance, in cuban salsa, girls move quite a lot). Also, there are other things that can compromise cuban motion and nobody cares - for instance, when spinning, there is no cuban motion. So what ...
So, I have different preferences than you, but it's perfectly ok I think ...
As about length of the steps, of course I try to feel limits of my partner and not force her over it, so if she likes to dance without much moving and with more styling etc, I don't push it. And of course, if the floor is crowded, I try to dance within small slot. Anyway, I personally like to move myself across the floor and to dance with the girl that can move. Some girls can move a lot without appearing rushed. Also, I prefer the cuban motion to be a result of moving, and not only a result of statical weight transfer when stepping almost at the same place - feels way better and more natural to me. So within certain limits, cuban motion won't be compromised with slightly longer steps (for instance, in cuban salsa, girls move quite a lot). Also, there are other things that can compromise cuban motion and nobody cares - for instance, when spinning, there is no cuban motion. So what ...
So, I have different preferences than you, but it's perfectly ok I think ...
azzey
Son Montuno
Yeah I had 3 female teachers in the first year. Really helps you focus on what the lady wants/needs. After the first year I was crying out for a male role model, so good job I moved.
In those days there was no YouTube and video was poor quality both in the resolution sense and dance sense. I think a lot of people have it easier learning these days.