Level difference between ladies and gents in the same class

[Winston]

You all know that men will progress much slower when they start their salsa journey compared to women.

Now I'm in a salsa class where the ladies are saying: "The lessons are boring or too easy..... I think I'll quit..... I just have to follow....."
While (most of) the men are struggling a little bit, just the right amount.

What can be done to solve this problem for the ladies?
Because with no ladies, there's no salsa.

 

[bulldog91]

It’s true—follows get diminishing returns from (most) classes compared to the leads. They might be well served to find a class/studio that emphasizes partner connection fundamentals (beyond memorizing combos) and styling. Even more importantly, they should start social dancing as early as possible.

 

[Latinjazz]

Have them leading and you follow! Contemporary and great for both!
And let's see what they say after that....

 

[vit]

Challenge them with even worse leading

 

[dav7802]

Give the follows different ways to do simple things. E.g. cross body lead.
1. Normal footwork
2. Step back on1 with right, step back on2 with left. (Both feet next to each other up on toes a little.) Step forward on3 with right.
3. Step back on1 with right, flick back on2 with left, in front of right like trying to get gum off bottom of shoe. Stepping back with left on2&. Step forward on3 with right.

 

[Francisco Fiko]

You all know that men will progress much slower when they start their salsa journey compared to women....

Well, no. That is simply not true.

Men seem to progress slower because most teachers fail to properly explain the leading / following concepts, so most women quickly fall into the misconception that following is a passive state and that the leader has more work to do than them. Nothing further from the truth.

When women understand that their part -following- involves as much decision and action as leading, they find the class much more interesting.

And when men realize what leading actually entails, a great stress load is taken off their shoulders and they become much more confident

When all partners realize that the creative process involves decision and action from both partners, everyone is energized and a bond of solidarity is established. Nothing is boring anymore for anyone, even if we are just doing basics.

 

[1derpalm]

Give the follows different ways to do simple things. E.g. cross body lead.
1. Normal footwork
2. Step back on1 with right, step back on2 with left. (Both feet next to each other up on toes a little.) Step forward on3 with right.
3. Step back on1 with right, flick back on2 with left, in front of right like trying to get gum off bottom of shoe. Stepping back with left on2&. Step forward on3 with right.

Guaranteed they'll screw up. Of course the new leads need to be able to do that.

 

[elanimal]

When women understand that their part -following- involves as much decision and action as leading, they find the class much more interesting.

What decisions and actions do followers make?

And when men realize what leading actually entails, a great stress load is taken off their shoulders and they become much more confident

What does leading entail?

 

[Mr Setenta]

In my scene, the male teachers are in charge classes and the females are sometimes inexperienced volunteers. Consequently, almost all the instruction is aimed at the leads while follows barely get taught the proper footwork, frame etc..
Maybe thats why my scene consists of leads at a higher level than the follows.

 

[terence]

Well, no. That is simply not true.

Men seem to progress slower because most teachers fail to properly explain the leading / following concepts, so most women quickly fall into the misconception that following is a passive state and that the leader has more work to do than them. Nothing further from the truth.



When all partners realize that the creative process involves decision and action from both partners, everyone is energized and a bond of solidarity is established.

Correct on both issues..

 

[terence]

Consequently, almost all the instruction is aimed at the leads while follows barely get taught the proper footwork, frame etc..

Those "teachers" are the product of other "teachers? " .

Before any new person takes their very 1st step, one needs to establish;

1.... Frame
2... Hold
3..Poise/Pitch ..
The initial difficulty is maintaining these concepts when put to music .

 

[vit]

The question is however what can be done in given circumstances, except changing the school and in smaller towns it's not likely that better one actually exists within reachable area

 

[1derpalm]

The question is however what can be done in given circumstances, except changing the school and in smaller towns it's not likely that better one actually exists within reachable area

^^^this x 10000000000000000000000000000000

 

[Mr Setenta]

Those "teachers" are the product of other "teachers? "

Some are, a few arent

 

[Mr Setenta]

Before any new person takes their very 1st step, one needs to establish;

1.... Frame
2... Hold
3..Poise/Pitch ..

Well, my school is a bit relaxed. People go there to have fun and unfortunately it means that classes are quite lenient on things.
Most students finish the 4-month beginners course and still cant even dance to the rhythm.

 

[Offbeat]

I been dancing a lot (14 days and counting). So a lot of followers. Also dropped in at some partner work workshops out of curiosity. And I been thinking about my experience with most followers I danced.

I will exclude those followers who are reasonable good at following. They make up may be 10% of those available. Let me focus on about 60% or so, all appeared to have been dancing for at least 3-4 years or more. A few among those 60% had good body movement or isolations that they could correctly apply to the music. But almost all of them exhibited one of the following which caused hinderance in connection and not so enjoyable dances:

1. Arms: either too stiff, or wrong tension, changing hand hold incorrectly (I lead lightly with one or two fingers only), missing offered palm, hand (often by anticipating what I might do or simply not paying attention to where my palm is).

2. Steps: absolutely wrong foot position and stepping coming out of CBL, wobbly turns, turning out of sync with the music.

3. Frame: stiff, incorrect or contrived body movement that interfers with lead when picking them up.

4. Responsiveness to lead: late by a beat or two, need leader to move them.

Most of above are fundamentals that you shouldn't really have to expect from intermediate level followers yet they persist.

My thinking is once followers transition from advance beginners low/early intermediate stage, their learning curve is steeper. The guys once they reach intermediate level have easier learning curve in incorporating and integrating body movement, shines, etc in their dancing. For the followers the curve is just starting.

I know one follower from Paris for past 3 years. She probably been dancing for ten years and was attending the Yamulee partner work class. I was surprised how pack the Yamulee partner work class gets. More surprising was number of followers in that class. I asked her why as a follower she expected to learning anything in that class since if a good leader leads combinations of those multiple spins and moves Yamulee was teaching, any decent follower would be able to follow. She said she can learn about connection, etc and get better. Yamulee wasn't teaching any of those at the workshop and their patterns are famously better for choreography than social dancing.

 

[terence]

Well, my school is a bit relaxed. People go there to have fun and unfortunately it means that classes are quite lenient on things.


Most students finish the 4-month beginners course and still cant even dance to the rhythm.

One can have fun and still teach FUNdamentals ..Relaxation , comes with knowledge

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Winston said:
You all know that men will progress much slower when they start their salsa journey compared to women....

Well, no. That is simply not true.

Are you implying that both leads and follows progress at the same rate?

There is a salsa learning curve for both men/women that has been posted a lot here and it shows that men progress slower than women in the beginning but then their learning accelerates faster than women past a certain pont.

The ideal and reality are quite different.

 

[terence]

Some are, a few arent

I worked in a major US city for many years and I give you empirical evidence. Out of about 30 teachers, I could count on one hand those that had formal in depth . training .There major priority was "teaching" s[ins .

 

[Francisco Fiko]

What decisions and actions do followers make?


What does leading entail?

Followers have to visually and manually find their partner, they have to move autonomously, keep their own rhythm and posture, they have to wait until they perceive a lead and then they have to execute it on their own. Besides that they have to ad styling and allow a creative space for their leaders.

Leading entails showing the follower what the leader is doing. (Present moment.) Not what the leader is going to do. That is the biggest mistake teachers and the dancers they train, make.