In all niche sports newcomers don't know the names of those who were big 10 years ago (except the handful who are interested in history). Only in mass sports celebs stay present in the news so we still know their names, if we are interested in them or not. I never heard of Marina until now and some time ago I read here about Alex da Silva the first time - who's that, never had heard that name. But I know who O.J.Simpson was, although I never watched an american football game in my life.
Legit teachers
- Thread starter Chris_Yannick
- Start date
desconocida
Son
That I can certainly agree with.
The thread is about legit teachers, not famous performers, right?
I've danced with all four of these teachers and am on friendly terms.
I've not met a single person who claimed they're student of Bersy or Sophia (but I've danced in Spain only once), half a dozen who claimed to be a student of Terry (there will be more in future I think), and maybe hundred students of Marina. Also many Marina's students are as memorable dancers as Bersy and Terry.
Also Marina and Terry teach as part of the team of other strong teachers and dancers. Don't know about Bersy. So singling them out makes little sense.
Have you taken classes from Terry before?
I have only seen some clips of workshops he gives but I didn't see much teaching there.
Long time ago ago in the festival. But he's always had a real dance school as well. Together with other teachers. I forgot where he's based now, but he said south of France, iirc.
desconocida
Son
The school is actually Salsalianza and located in Paris - unless, of course, he has several. According to their "about us" section established by Terry and Cecile in 2007 - so he's not a newcomer, if he hasn't produced any good students coming out until now chances are, that's not happening any more. Though I'm not very knowledgeable about the French scene. I think they're doing quite fine (Paris alone has Salsalianza, Mouaze, Ella, among others), that's why the French don't even travel that much - no need
Btw., Esteban, who we mentioned earlier, teaches for Salsalianza, too.Terry has been running a school since 2007. I'm not sure about Bersy, but I remember having seen some local performance project before.
I never been to Rostov though always wanted go to that festival. I only danced with her in NYC and Moscow. Can’t remember if I danced with her elsewhere. May be I did.And, last but not least, quite a considerable number of non-artist leads from Europe and the States have traveled to that congress, all of them know who she is, too. So let's just generalize and extrapolate from personal experience a little less on all ends of the spectrum
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Reading these posts makes me realize how much salsa is really a pa y to play, pay to win Hobbie. Once a social stret dance from poor country, now for rich I ternational people (like jazz music and Bboy summits).
If you are working class, from a small city in the middle of nowhere, there is a cap, and even travelling to the bigger city, those teachers are not always amazing. , because they look up to the same people.
Having gtaken workshops from some of these famous teachers, I don't understand the hoopla. I get the same experience.. all the top dancers are at the front, blocking the view and can do it all already. I learn nothing.
And (no surprise) I don't think a lot of them are anywhere near as good as some of the non famous dance teachers in havana. But that is all subjective. But again goes to my point of pay to play. It is their dance (depending non the convenience of the argument), and they are stuck there. The only ones that make it have rich euro spouses.
It makes me realize my ceiling and how much I should care. I started with local teachers at 38, didn't get quakiy teacher (had to own car and afford gas to leave town, plus tuition) until 42, then covid lol. Now I'm 49. What does this all mean now lol.
If you are working class, from a small city in the middle of nowhere, there is a cap, and even travelling to the bigger city, those teachers are not always amazing. , because they look up to the same people.
Having gtaken workshops from some of these famous teachers, I don't understand the hoopla. I get the same experience.. all the top dancers are at the front, blocking the view and can do it all already. I learn nothing.
And (no surprise) I don't think a lot of them are anywhere near as good as some of the non famous dance teachers in havana. But that is all subjective. But again goes to my point of pay to play. It is their dance (depending non the convenience of the argument), and they are stuck there. The only ones that make it have rich euro spouses.
It makes me realize my ceiling and how much I should care. I started with local teachers at 38, didn't get quakiy teacher (had to own car and afford gas to leave town, plus tuition) until 42, then covid lol. Now I'm 49. What does this all mean now lol.
IMO, P2W is a trap. I'm sure plenty of poor people grind it out and get good without spending a lot for classes, traveling and/or gear.
But I do think today's Salsa is more of a younger person's game. I do wish teachers slowed down and that there was more of a spread between the high complexity/intensity endurance training and focus on music/basics/connection.
I'm surprised how much choreo based 'copy me' classes still get pushed hard by artists. It's got to stop. You can do that at home!
It doesn't impress me to see people run around like finely tuned race cars all doing the same choreo to music that doesn't fit.
Last edited:
You get that impression because you are on these boards. Traveling within Europe and staying in hostels is inexpensive. Students can afford to do it too.
In USA and North America, most dancers didn’t go to festivals. If anyone got curious, they would go to one in close by (90 minutes flight or 5 hours drive).
Salsa dancing was very cheap monetarily compared to going to bar and spending money on drinks. You could pay $10 or $15 cover and dance to live band for 3 hours. If not live music, to DJ music for 4 hours. Most dancers stopped taking lessons after a couple of months. Today the cover charges tend to be $15 to $20.
Only those who joined performance teams, spent more. Half them don’t come out social dancing. You can consider it as a separate hobby than going out social dancing.
Most social dancers do not go to workshops or classes by celebrities when they visit. Most do not care. Only small segment of hard core dancers will sign up for such workshops.
Think of most social dancers like high school graduates. Small subset is like college graduates. And a few are like PhDs. That is the make up of the dancers, at least in the USA. So if majority is like high school graduates or drop outs, they are satisfied dancing locally. They don’t feel any great urge to put in more effort to improve or go to festivals. Social media has changed a bit but still most of this local crowd doesn’t know anything about who ET or FM is. Forget about the rest.
Salsa generally lacks good instructors. So if you want to rise above local level, you have to find good instructors elsewhere. That’s not easy due to general lower quality of teaching in salsa.
Small towns and cities always have a problem of not having critical mass for any activity. Salsa and partner dancing is even more niche.
One of workshops at festivals are not going to help anyone. You need continuous learning. Either intensive immersive training like you do when you go to Cuba. Or 8-10 weeks of regular weekly training. The more you learn and get better, the more time it takes to get better at incremental things.
Or locally. This is true in other dances and hobbies too. Some of the enthusiasts for whom it is a serious hobby, can be better than pros. It shouldn’t surprise anyone. We see that everywhere in life. Most popular tends to somewhere between average and above average. There is Starbucks and there are Indy coffee shops.
It is only if you want to play that game. You choose to visit Cubs. They choose to go to festivals. A big majority does neither
There are many who started around mid to late 30s. I think most of the studio crowd started in 30s rather than in 20s. In 20s the people are going out drinking, playing video games, going to clubs, playing sports, etc. Partner dancing is not among popular activities. At least that’s how it has been here.
You are at college grad level and comparing to those PhDs or aspiring to be. The cost is equivalent of 4-5 years of your life. Most PhDs once they join the workforce don’t earn that much more than grads. Ten years back I ran into a few PhDs in neurology and other subjects, working in a mall or driving uber because they couldn’t find jobs.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Adonis just oozes "I love to dance"
This illustrates the problem of teaching Salsa in my town:
Whenever I see a promotion for a Salsa class in my city, the focus is on solo style training (for ladies only since we have no male Salsa teachers who can give styling tips). These classes are marketed for improving 'On2 Salsa' but because it is solo styling there is no partnering development nor any technique that would facilitate dancing in couple. They don't even teach basics in these styling courses. Utterly useless since these girls never gain any real dancing skills.
Kizomba, Bachata and Zouk teachers on the other hand, always focus primarily on partnering technique in their classes. The promotional video also prominently displays progress through basics.
So in a nutshell, Salsa classes are marketed towards improving your style through group choreo, which might as well be called Zumba. Zero focus on basics, musicality, or connecting with a partner.
Also doesn't help that there are no classes currently marketed for beginner dancing On2 because there is no demand for it. Yet there is somehow a demand for ladies styling for On2 dancers?
Salsa teaching in my city is broken.
Whenever I see a promotion for a Salsa class in my city, the focus is on solo style training (for ladies only since we have no male Salsa teachers who can give styling tips). These classes are marketed for improving 'On2 Salsa' but because it is solo styling there is no partnering development nor any technique that would facilitate dancing in couple. They don't even teach basics in these styling courses. Utterly useless since these girls never gain any real dancing skills.
Kizomba, Bachata and Zouk teachers on the other hand, always focus primarily on partnering technique in their classes. The promotional video also prominently displays progress through basics.
So in a nutshell, Salsa classes are marketed towards improving your style through group choreo, which might as well be called Zumba. Zero focus on basics, musicality, or connecting with a partner.
Also doesn't help that there are no classes currently marketed for beginner dancing On2 because there is no demand for it. Yet there is somehow a demand for ladies styling for On2 dancers?
Salsa teaching in my city is broken.
desconocida
Son
I wished it was just your city! My (somewhat educated) guess is, this is more or less true for large parts of Europe - minus Paris, London, and Amsterdam as well as some individual schools in smaller cities who try to defy this trend. But by doing so they kind of undermine their revenue base because basic on2 is perceived (and often marketed) as harder and many of those who struggle in their first two classes never come back and switch to bachata altogether or an 'easier' school with (mostly bad) on1 instruction and a focus on socializing rather than dancing. Moreover, sadly, most teachers I've encountered in some way do not have a solid technical background to begin with, so they just teach whatever they think works for them and sell is as 'technique'. There are, of course, pleasant exceptions to this somewhat crude generalization, but they are few and far between, sadly.
Those demanding advanced on2 styling are, in my experience, mostly women who have been dancing for several years, and just puzzled their following technique from personal experience attending congresses and dancing with sometimes legitimately good, but more often with flashy looking leads, and many are not even aware of what they are lacking.
If only the followers taking styling classes in my area were at an advanced level..
But 95% of these followers are barely improver level and some are complete beginners. It's absurd that these styling classes are on offer when someone can't even dance a proper basic On2. But the teachers who are giving these styling lessons need to make money so they try to get as many women into their classes as possible, including those with close to zero dance experience.
These teachers IMO are all fake but because we barely have a Salsa community any class is better than no class.
Natasha was at Back2Mambo and I know no less than 3 people who took private lessons from her.
She came recommended by others.
From what I was told by one person who took a private from her, feedback was overall positive.
This has been true out here for last ten years. There are more ladies teams and ladies workshops. They are all about solo dancing. Most of the ladies that join these are regular dancers who have been dancing for a year or more to five-six years. We have about 4 to 5 such teams/troupes/classes. Together that would make about 100 women who are taking ladies solo dancing/styling training. Some of the women have been at it for several years. Some drop in and out.
If they didn’t had good partnering skills and basics, they haven’t got better after joining ladies teams or ladies longitudinal classes. Their body movement definitely improves. With about half of them you can dance apart. Only about ten percent are as good at partner dancing as they are with their individual body movement.
It also makes sense at one level. We have discussed how most partnering classes don’t have anything to offer to the followers. Once follower gets to the comfort level of being able to follow, the partnering classes can be boring. The partnering classes only focus on patterns which attracts men. New patterns as they are called and sought after by men.
Since there is no culture in salsa (on1 or on2 schools) to focus on basics, fundamentals, and cleaning it up, what we all complain about salsa instructors persists. There are a few exceptions like Svetlana Ray. She was focused on basics of following for the followers long before she became known.
You are correct that most people who purport to be instructors lack good technical background.
I used to have discussions with the “directors” or “instructors” who led the women’s teams or classes. They are excellent dancers. Among my fav partners to dance with. Solid technique, musicality, high level dancers and excellent social dancers. They very often lament how difficult it was to get the ladies to go out social dancing. A couple also made a rule that they should come out social dancing after the class to a popular social not far. Yet only 3 or 5 show up from a class of 20 or more. They are also aware of lack of partnering basics and skills among their students. Btw none of these students dance bachata or zouk.
Bachata followers here do not have any better skills either. Bachata is popular but still dwarfs salsa. There are far fewer bachata socials than salsa socials.
There was one school that is and was very popular for its classes. They were old style classes. Warm up shines for 10-15 minutes. And then partner work for an hour. Ninety percent of the followers who were regular students were weak in technical skills and following skills. Despite going to weekly classes for two years or more. Another more popular school was run like a drill sergeant. The woman definitely improved. It focused a lot on basics and fundamentals. So technically they were good to very good. However the leaders from that school danced very mechanically. By watching you can tell. I heard the followers from NYC having the similar complaints about Yamulee and Santa Rico leads. Call it canned dancing. They all feel the same or similar.
The more people dance socially the more they develop their individual style. This is more true for followers. They get used to dancing when so many different leaders and reacting to their leads. For leaders it is more challenging to not only develop their own style and react to music in different ways. Lately in the forums I read a few posts about leaders expressing being bored with their own dancing. To keep things exciting and not be subject to sameness is easier for the followers because they are responding and reacting to leads. For the leaders they can only experience similar variety if they focus on reacting and responding to the music. Which is a lot more difficult. The comfort zone is falling back on the moves that are very familar. Good followers react to both the partner and the music. That skill comes with having done more social dancing. Most leaders don’t know how to react to a follower. They never develop that muscle. A often used analogy is driving a Ferrari, like you are driving a regular car.
opm1s6
Son
Really? Not really that simple of a topic to reduce down to one statement. No one wants to social dance like Osmar or Tomas. Several of their dancers have been regarded as some of the best of the New York leads and follows. The technique isn't necessarily the problem with those that aren't.How can anyone not name Marina Vanyushina from Rostov on Don. She has been around for a very long time. Most of her students are excellent dancers.
Agree with Svetlana Ray. I discovered her (2018) before she became famous outside of SPB
You need to add the grand daddy and OG - Eddie Torres. He produced so many excellent dancers. Is he still actively teaching in NYC?
I am not including the performance oriented instructors like Yamulee and Santa Rico. Their primary focus was on performances.
I just generally don't understand the distinction you're trying to make. They do a lot of performing, they're training was/is really focused on athleticism. They have created countless amazing dancers that now have their own dance companies. If you put ET on a pedestal based on that standard, I don't understand the comment.