Learning with classes vs. on the ground (in a Latin country)

[SalsaNerd]

Has anybody here had the experience of taking classes while also living in a Spanish-speaking country?

Sometimes I think that taking classes and then also going out to dance with people makes things more difficult and complicated than they would otherwise be. This is probably not actually the case, since it makes sense that knowing the underlying mechanics would be a necessary starting place.

But translating what I learn in class with what everyday dancers are used to still seems like an impossible obstacle at this point.

The comparison that comes to mind is learning a language in the classroom and then trying to go out into the world and speak it with people who never learned it in that systematic way. The subtleties of custom and context is so confusing that it makes me wonder if it can be accomplished at all by an outsider like myself.

Going out, it always feels like everybody is dancing something different AND YET somehow everybody else knows how to dance with everybody else anyway! What's going on??

For me, it seems to go wrong from the outset because once the other person knows that I'm not fluent in their language/way of dancing, they want to be nice and teach me on the dance floor. But they didn't come out to dance to teach a still-learning gringo, nor can I dance and listen to their instructions at the same time. I go out on the dance floor to practice, but end up just being a burden to the other dancer who isn't going to get a good dance out of me.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

The comparison that comes to mind is learning a language in the classroom and then trying to go out into the world and speak it with people who never learned it in that systematic way. The subtleties of custom and context is so confusing that it makes me wonder if it can be accomplished at all by an outsider like myself.

The comparison makes sense given that you are trying to dance with natives who never learned in a classroom.

If you lived in a country where most people learned how to dance in classes, they’d be more adaptable to dancing your language.

Though I’m wondering if the teachers you’ve had are also native? What exactly are they teaching you that is so different than what is happening outside of class?

If I were you, I’d go find a crowd that is largely trained and ‘speaks’ your language. You should be able to find a group like that if you live in a big enough city.

 

[1derpalm]

Has anybody here had the experience of taking classes while also living in a Spanish-speaking country?

Sometimes I think that taking classes and then also going out to dance with people makes things more difficult and complicated than they would otherwise be. This is probably not actually the case, since it makes sense that knowing the underlying mechanics would be a necessary starting place.

But translating what I learn in class with what everyday dancers are used to still seems like an impossible obstacle at this point.

The comparison that comes to mind is learning a language in the classroom and then trying to go out into the world and speak it with people who never learned it in that systematic way. The subtleties of custom and context is so confusing that it makes me wonder if it can be accomplished at all by an outsider like myself.

Going out, it always feels like everybody is dancing something different AND YET somehow everybody else knows how to dance with everybody else anyway! What's going on??

For me, it seems to go wrong from the outset because once the other person knows that I'm not fluent in their language/way of dancing, they want to be nice and teach me on the dance floor. But they didn't come out to dance to teach a still-learning gringo, nor can I dance and listen to their instructions at the same time. I go out on the dance floor to practice, but end up just being a burden to the other dancer who isn't going to get a good dance out of me.

They might be dancing on 3 or home style. They won't stick to a consistent rhythm. They will add a shuffle sometimes. Or I don't know what happens but sometimes their break step will change to 5, 3 or whatever.
As Chris said, it is likely a case that they aren't familiar, and very likely won't want to accommodate that style. Especially since you don't speak Spanish.

 

[Sabrosura]

It would help if you mentioned the specific country you are living in. (Many people here have direct experience with various Latin countries.) E.g. Cubans dance & teach very differently than Colombians.

PS If you're in Colombia, we have a whole discussion about how e.g. the Cali style as taught in the dance schools is very different from what untrained Colombians dance.

 

[Smejmoon]

Yeah, each of those countries is different and probably each region is different as well. In Colombia there might be half a dozen regional styles. In classes you'll probably get one of the major styles (on1/on2/cuban/cali), which is helpful if you travel and plan to dance in other places as well.

 

[Offbeat]

Am I the only one that sees no link between the thread heading and the original post?

OP’s crux of the problem

But translating what I learn in class with what everyday dancers are used to still seems like an impossible obstacle at this point.

Going out, it always feels like everybody is dancing something different AND YET somehow everybody else knows how to dance with everybody else anyway! What's going on??

This a very relatable problem for every beginner. In the beginner class you are not taught to dance. Most classes at any level hardly teach you to “dance”. You are only taught steps and certain movement. Then you see people dancing and you can’t figure out how what you learnt in the class is linked to what you see people doing when dancing.


This can get most pronounced in WCS. Go to a beginner WCS class. Then watch the westies dance. They are playing with time and music. The neat step, step, triple step you learnt in the beginner class, you can’t see anyone doing it on the dance floor. I have known a few salsa guys get flummoxed trying do dance WCS after beginner class. The patterns kind of look familiar but they can’t lead using the steps they learnt in the class.

Which country or place you take a class as a beginner and then try to dance soon after, doesn’t matter. There is always going to be that awkward phase of trying to dance in the beginning. Women who follow have a bit easier passage as they will also get asked and dance with guys who have at least a little dancing experience.

 

[TikiTaka]

For me, it seems to go wrong from the outset because once the other person knows that I'm not fluent in their language/way of dancing, they want to be nice and teach me on the dance floor. But they didn't come out to dance to teach a still-learning gringo, nor can I dance and listen to their instructions at the same time. I go out on the dance floor to practice, but end up just being a burden to the other dancer who isn't going to get a good dance out of me.

You should go to the parties where trained salsa dancers go rather than the corner club where people go and drink beer and hook up.

 

[Deleted member 324432]

You should go to the parties where trained salsa dancers go rather than the corner club where people go and drink beer and hook up.

But what if they'd rather be a part of the general dance culture, rather than holing up with some dance nerds?

My recommendation would be

• use those dance classes you're taking to get a feel for the rhythm and (some version of) the basic steps, and to get comfortable moving to music at all
• keep going to the corner club, try grooving to the music solo, copy what others are doing
• take them up on their offer of teaching you some basics
• trawl youtube a bit to see if you can find people dancing similar

You could also ask your teachers, though it's a bit of a gamble whether they're likely to be helpful.

 

[TikiTaka]

But what if they'd rather be a part of the general dance culture, rather than holing up with some dance nerds?

My recommendation would be

• use those dance classes you're taking to get a feel for the rhythm and (some version of) the basic steps, and to get comfortable moving to music at all
• keep going to the corner club, try grooving to the music solo, copy what others are doing
• take them up on their offer of teaching you some basics
• trawl youtube a bit to see if you can find people dancing similar

You could also ask your teachers, though it's a bit of a gamble whether they're likely to be helpful.

Yes of course, then go to regular get drunk parties. I thought OP wanted to practise his/her steps at parties, which will be difficult if the people at parties aren't trained.

When I go to parties with non-trained Latin Americans I always keep it simple and don't try to pull any moves.

 

[RichNTacoma]

Great discussion. I am very new to dancing and salsa. I spent three months in Colombia (mostly Bogota, but a bit in Medellin) learning mostly On1 linear, but a Colombian (Cumbia step, paso Colombiano/CaleNo). I took 1.5 hour lesson twice a day for most of that time, and have been dancing (with individual lessons, group lessons, and socials, about five nights a week since I have been back. So, I am very much a newbie, having only been dancing since late October.

I am not a competent advanced beginner (maybe) in dancing On1 en la linea, but boy, dancing Colombian salsa is very, very hard for me. The speed, the willingness and ability to syncopate, the lack of cross body lead--the style that is danced in the clubs in Bogota is so different.

As a newcomer, I have little to add here. However, I do wish to make con corrective about the notion that all bars in Latin America (or Colombia) are hook up places were people don't really know how to dance, or are not trained. There are perhaps 5 or 6 places in Bogota that are serious about Salsa!! These are not, random drunken bars where people do not take salsa and dancing seriously. Several clubs are dedicated to salsa and dancer there are serious, and often very well trained, but, they are not dancing on1, but what they call salsa Colombiano. There is a strong willingness to adapt, to enjoy, and to be generous in sharing and receiving. I am heading back to Bogota after a couple of of weeks in Ecuador, and my plan is to take three hours of classes during the day and then go out most nights to dance, and see how I do not that things have started to click for me a bit more.

Mostly, I guess this is my first substantive post and so am contributing a bit.

 

[TikiTaka]

Several clubs are dedicated to salsa and dancer there are serious, and often very well trained, but, they are not dancing on1, but what they call salsa Colombiano.

Yes, there are regular bars that play a lot of salsa, as well as other music genres, and then there are salsa places dedicated to salseros. This is a pattern in many Latin American cities.

Also I never said they "can't dance". Many people who never took a dance class are excellent dancers in their own style, but not necessarily better in the studio dancer style.

I can dance Linear, Cuban, Bachata, Merengue and Cumbia, but if I go to one of the regular clubs in Latin America I will not assume that just because I am proficient in some styles of dancing, that I am superior to others. I consider a lot of non-trained dancers to be better I and better than most social dancers in many aspects.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[RichNTacoma]

I think you missed my point: there are bars/clubs dedicated, deeply to ONLY salsa. Yes, there are also many, many crossover bars, but those are not what I am referring to. And I agree--I am not referring to better or worse.

 

[Amun]

They might be dancing on 3 or home style. They won't stick to a consistent rhythm. They will add a shuffle sometimes. Or I don't know what happens but sometimes their break step will change to 5, 3 or whatever.
As Chris said, it is likely a case that they aren't familiar, and very likely won't want to accommodate that style. Especially since you don't speak Spanish.

silly question, but can this be considered that they dance a different "dance"? like let's say a pure crossbody dancer will struggle with cuban salsa partner. Meaning if someone would be on quite nice level from crossbody/cuban class, they wouldn't be able to dance with locals?

 

[TikiTaka]

silly question, but can this be considered that they dance a different "dance"? like let's say a pure crossbody dancer will struggle with cuban salsa partner. Meaning if someone would be on quite nice level from crossbody/cuban class, they wouldn't be able to dance with locals?

Varies from person to person of course, but I believe somebody that learnt only studio style linear and was not exposed to Latin American dance culture would probably struggle. Casino/Cuban Salsa is more adaptable.

 

[1derpalm]

Varies from person to person of course, but I believe somebody that learnt only studio style linear and was not exposed to Latin American dance culture would probably struggle. Casino/Cuban Salsa is more adaptable.

Cuban does seem to be the liaison between the 2 lol. A linear and cuban person, provided they have an open mind about each other, can adapt somewhat. A cuban and homestyle dancer seem to be compatible. But linear and homestyle, not so much.

 

[Offbeat]

silly question, but can this be considered that they dance a different "dance"? like let's say a pure crossbody dancer will struggle with cuban salsa partner. Meaning if someone would be on quite nice level from crossbody/cuban class, they wouldn't be able to dance with locals?

You can. The question is who is more willing to adjust. If you are trained, you should be more able and willing to adjust. Someone "untrained" could still be very skilled to unskilled. It is a range. A skilled dancer irrespective of whether trained or not, has more tools in his bag to adjust. There are certain things that should be easier for a leader to adjust and certain things that are easier for follower to adjust. That's due to the muscle memory and how it might fight you.

To me salsa and casino are different dances. But they are not different enough that you can't cross over. E.g. a lot of salsa dancers danced good enough bachata and merengue by emulating others. There were seldom any classes for either early on. You saw others do their thing and tried best to emulate them. Soon you developed you own style of dancing merengue or bachata. You could be really good at it or passable. That's exactly how many in the Latin America and Carribeans pick it up. Because so many around them are dancing. A friend or a relative might show a step or two to get you started.

As a salsa dancer I could fake enough to lead a casino follower if the CBL didn't work. From very early on. If I go to casino room, I can fake enough to dance at a level of an average casino lead. That is the dance is more than serviceable. I seen casino followers adapt to a salsa lead too. There are some dancers of either style who find it difficult to adapt or adjust. I compare them to the students who learnt by rote. That's like failing to learn or apply underlying principles.

 

[TikiTaka]

You can. The question is who is more willing to adjust. If you are trained, you should be more able and willing to adjust. Someone "untrained" could still be very skilled to unskilled. It is a range. A skilled dancer irrespective of whether trained or not, has more tools in his bag to adjust. There are certain things that should be easier for a leader to adjust and certain things that are easier for follower to adjust. That's due to the muscle memory and how it might fight you.

To me salsa and casino are different dances. But they are not different enough that you can't cross over. E.g. a lot of salsa dancers danced good enough bachata and merengue by emulating others. There were seldom any classes for either early on. You saw others do their thing and tried best to emulate them. Soon you developed you own style of dancing merengue or bachata. You could be really good at it or passable. That's exactly how many in the Latin America and Carribeans pick it up. Because so many around them are dancing. A friend or a relative might show a step or two to get you started.

As a salsa dancer I could fake enough to lead a casino follower if the CBL didn't work. From very early on. If I go to casino room, I can fake enough to dance at a level of an average casino lead. That is the dance is more than serviceable. I seen casino followers adapt to a salsa lead too. There are some dancers of either style who find it difficult to adapt or adjust. I compare them to the students who learnt by rote. That's like failing to learn or apply underlying principles.

I would say as a Casino lead it is not very easy to adopt to linear, especially if dancing with intermediates. With advanced dancers it was easier.

It probably took me a few weeks of going out once per week until I felt somewhat proficient (didn't take any classes).

 

[Offbeat]

I would say as a Casino lead it is not very easy to adopt to linear, especially if dancing with intermediates. With advanced dancers it was easier.

It probably took me a few weeks of going out once per week until I felt somewhat proficient (didn't take any classes).

That's not a whole lot to adapt.

 

[SalsaNerd]

They might be dancing on 3 or home style. They won't stick to a consistent rhythm. They will add a shuffle sometimes. Or I don't know what happens but sometimes their break step will change to 5, 3 or whatever.
As Chris said, it is likely a case that they aren't familiar, and very likely won't want to accommodate that style. Especially since you don't speak Spanish.

What is On3 or home style??? And I speak Spanish, I was just using language as an analogy for dance.

 

[SalsaNerd]

Right now I am in Mexico City and trying to learn the cumbia-based party salsa that they dance here. In theory, this should be A LOT easier than the On2 that I have practice for the socials.

The thing is that all the On2 people are dancers seem to be more or less trained in the same stuff. The language (sorry, but this is the natural metaphor for me) seems more consistent (even though I still can barely dance it).

Whereas in regard to the easier party style that everyday people dance here, I have one person telling me to indicate a turn one way, then another in a different way, some partners will accept certain moves done in threes (as my profe has taught me) and others don't know why I'm repeating the same move.

I suspect that a ton of stuff is specific to places, age groups, and schools that I do not come from. It all seems hermetically sealed and, with the exception of this forum, I have no way of getting a good explanation of what is going on and what I need to do. I wonder why I can't just learn the moves and go out to dance with people who know the same stuff. Except they do seem to know with each other, and I never do.

I wonder if there is even a realistic path for me to learn at all. If practice is necessary, but the dance breaks down before it has even got going, then there is no way ahead. And I really wanted to learn, purely out of my own interest, but it seems impossible.