Competitions have become much more mainstream now in the Salsa scene which brings me to this question. How can you judge a count? The Colombians are preparing to compete On1 and On2 at various comps that have these divisions of On1 and On2. Also several L.A. competitors are going to compete with their style On2 as well as some Cuban Style dancers. How do you judge? Your not judging a particular style but many styles doing the same beat. It just doesn't make sense.
Judging a count just doesn't make sense
- Thread starter IsaacAltman
- Start date
Being an adjudicator... its not necessarily about the beat on which you break ( as long as you are consistent ) , but the many other factors that are in play .
Isaac, I know you are well aware of that.. and mixing and matching, musically may not suit all styles ,
but, as a judge , I have to base my descision on what is before me..
There are comps that subdivide into categories, which makes for an easier task .
The B/room genre does a similar thing in their showcase editions, pitting tangos against , waltzes, q.s. etc.
I believe that to be a much more difficult task .
Yes it does. You may be dancing on2 crap-style, bit you will be an "on2 dancer".
As for the competitions, I don't really see Cuban style dancers competing against XBL style ones. If you go with your casino routine to the Mayan, you probably won't qualify. You are similarly out of luck if you try to sell your
XBL salsa on a Cuban style competition.
Even as a beginner, I am confused as to why there are two divisions, on1 and on2. If you look at the judging criteria:
worldsalsachampionships.com/rules.htm
the only difference between the divisions is that the dancers are required to "emphasize" dancing on the number of the respective division.
I bet if you took a clips at random and turned off the music you couldn't tell which division the couple belonged to.
Seems to me that there should only be 2 divisions, cabaret and non-cabaret, and in each division the couples would have to identify ahead of time which beat they are emphasizing in order to be judged appropriately.
worldsalsachampionships.com/rules.htm
the only difference between the divisions is that the dancers are required to "emphasize" dancing on the number of the respective division.
I bet if you took a clips at random and turned off the music you couldn't tell which division the couple belonged to.
Seems to me that there should only be 2 divisions, cabaret and non-cabaret, and in each division the couples would have to identify ahead of time which beat they are emphasizing in order to be judged appropriately.
Well, everyone is making my point. This is why the WSF divides competition by styles rather than count. Ballroom does the same. Swing the same. Styles are much more distinct. The mess will come about unless some organizers change. Cali Style is danced on 1 and can also be danced on 2. How do you judge ON1 between L.A. and Cali styles? There will be contraversy as Judges are not prepared for this but think they are.
This is quite interesting. Do you have any links to clips that feature "L.A. style" competitors and "N.Y. style" competitors from WSF?
My beginner brain can't yet distinguish visually between the two (judging by WSC clips). Columbian and Cuban are clearly different, but NY and LA I would lump into "slot style" as far as competition is concerned.
quixotedlm
Changui
all this seems overly restrictive towards the versatile dancer who might wish to mix'n'match on1/on2 and the various styles creatively to suit the song and mood....
Competition dancing has different rules than exhibition dancing or social dancing.
If a competition has divisions based on the break timing, then I don't see any problem with Colombians, Cuban style dancers, etc., picking one of the timings and entering in the event. LA style dancers competing in the on2 division? Why not, as long as they can keep to the on2 timing throughout their routines. On1 doesn't have to mean LA style, and there's no reason why "on2" has to be NY style ET2.
One alternative would be to have style-based divisions in a competition, e.g., LA on1, NY ET2, Cali style, Casino, etc., etc. - but where does that stop? Where do Power2 competitors go, for example? Should you have separate categories for Cuban and Miami styles? Should London style dancers be allowed to compete both in on1/on2, stick to one or have their own London style on1/on2 division?
Another alternative, obviously, is not to have divisions at all (other than "pair" or "group" perhaps). I don't see any problem with this either (though it may be difficult for the judges).
One alternative would be to have style-based divisions in a competition, e.g., LA on1, NY ET2, Cali style, Casino, etc., etc. - but where does that stop? Where do Power2 competitors go, for example? Should you have separate categories for Cuban and Miami styles? Should London style dancers be allowed to compete both in on1/on2, stick to one or have their own London style on1/on2 division?
Another alternative, obviously, is not to have divisions at all (other than "pair" or "group" perhaps). I don't see any problem with this either (though it may be difficult for the judges).
As far as I know neither exhibition dancing nor social dancing have ANY rules.
bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
I don't know if this is true in other cities but I was told that competitors in local ballroom competitions compete only in their same age grouping because the 40-50 year olds didn't want to be competing against 15-20 year olds in the same division. The feeling was that the judges might be influenced by some of the age related advantages whatever those may be.
Re: salsa dancing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the judges are known to have a bias for either on1 or on2. By having of all the competitors in a division dance to the same count, such bias accusations become irrelevant. I could envision that the contests may even have to be split further such as into into Cali-Colombia style on1, LA-style on1, on2, Casino, Cabaret etc. There really is no limit to how many categories there can be, only a limit to how many competitors may or may not enter.
Re: salsa dancing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the judges are known to have a bias for either on1 or on2. By having of all the competitors in a division dance to the same count, such bias accusations become irrelevant. I could envision that the contests may even have to be split further such as into into Cali-Colombia style on1, LA-style on1, on2, Casino, Cabaret etc. There really is no limit to how many categories there can be, only a limit to how many competitors may or may not enter.
ALL ballroom in the pro/Am division is age categorised.. from Junior to an over 70s div.
In the Amat div, it is segregated by levels of achievement (i.e... novice / pre champ / champ., plus closed and open , and age ).
There are also rules in place, where one cannot enter a " lower " division after having won it at Champ. level.
A " fairness " doctrine has been in place for multi yrs .
The pros have rising star and open . In addition, there are numerous other categories as in 1 and 2 dance, which is also divided by its genre ( Intern. and American styles .. C and W does a similar breakdown ) .
Into all that " mix ", add the childrens categ.
miércoles
Changui
Big10
Son
I share chr's view. So, sweavo, can I put the burden on you of creating a new thread and explaining your opinion about the meaningful distinctions between "a person dancing on 2" versus "an On2 dancer"? You don't even have to give us the full dozen nuances....4 or 5 would still be a good start.
No. :nope: The sole purpose of this thread was to generate free publicity for Isaac Altman's self-declared "World Salsa Federation".
bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
In order to have a "fairness doctrine" as stated by Terence earlier, these situations need to be addressed. If you have a contest on a count, then style (Cuban, Colombian, Puerto Rican, etc.) does not need to addressed, only if you stay on count. I do think this could have its limitations and definite prejudices amongst judges. My opinion is to follow a proven method, one that has gotten recognized by the I.O.C., DanceSport. DanceSport, although suffering from organizational fighting, has a proven track record in classification of styles versus counts. Salsa can learn from their past mistakes and hyperjump Salsa competitions in the 21st century! You go SALSA! Oh yes, thanks to the previous gentleman who plugged my organization.
That's what I meant: your organization.
(BTW, the word "federation" means: union of self-governing entities. I just wonder where are all those organizations scattered all over the world that you managed to unite.)
OTOH, I think we really need way more "undisputed" world champions in salsa. The best way to achieve this by letting everyone who wins a competition found a new intergalactic salsa federation that organizes another world championship so the number of salsa "world-champions" could grow exponentially year by year. So finally, all of us could realize the dream of becoming a world champion.
