It may be salsa, but not as we know it, Jim

[Flex]

- on a cbl with single outside turn, leading the lady to turn on the 5 rather than the 6

Ha. Gotcha!
On a CBL with and outside (1.5 x right) turn, the girl's first turn step is into the five, and I actually endorse "pre-leading" this on the four to give her a moment's notice.
If however we're talking about a simple "Outside Cross Body" where the girl only does a half right turn, then she needs to turn either into her five step (led as she steps into five) or into her seven step (led AFTER 6 as she steps into seven) so that we're working WITH the follower's natural movement and not against it.

Nope. This is just the half-turn and the lady steps forward on 5, you start the lead going into the six so she does the natural half-turn on her right on 6 using the spring off her left. You may have to travel a bit more with her.

Try it and I think you may find it more harmonious LOL. Mine do (when I showed them both methods)

On the other hand, it's always difficult describing these things, especially timing, where a lead is prepared and started fractionally before the next step. So I wouldn't be surprised if, while we may disagree in print, we were actually demonstrating pretty much the same thing in real life....

Agreed on the other things. The throw-away openout has to be deployed from close hold but I find the one led across with the right hand vastly more effective and pretty from open hold.

 

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

On the other hand, it's always difficult describing these things, especially timing, where a lead is prepared and started fractionally before the next step. So I wouldn't be surprised if, while we may disagree in print, we were actually demonstrating pretty much the same thing in real life....

Ya gotta go and spoil my fun, aincha? Sadly, you're quite possibly correct. :cry:

This is just the half-turn and the lady steps forward on 5, you start the lead going into the six so she does the natural half-turn on her right on 6 using the spring off her left. You may have to travel a bit more with her.

Seriously I think I'm missing something here.
Girl steps forward on left foot on five. Does her right foot then pass to the left or the right of her left foot?

If to the left then she has effectively half turned as she lands on Six.
(To get her to do this smoothly we need to get her turning as (or before) she lifts her right foot - ie on Five)

If to the right then I just don't see how it she can turn at all until after she's stepped onto it or she'll be all crossed up!

Help! :?

 

[Jambo]

I was taught not to turn until 7 :? then again, what do I know?

 

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

I was taught not to turn until 7 :? then again, what do I know?

On the contrary, having danced with you (and seen you lead) I'd say your knowledge isn't in question. There are of course always different ways of doing things. Getting the girl to turn on five means the leader can sneak a turn of his own in their 6/7.
But back to Flex - c'mon - more explanation please...

 

[Flex]

Seriously I think I'm missing something here.
Girl steps forward on left foot on five. Does her right foot then pass to the left or the right of her left foot?

Her right foot passes straight forward (leaving her left foot to the left LOL) but the lead is now preparing her to turn right on 6.

If to the left then she has effectively half turned as she lands on Six.

she has not turned to the left. She has gone straight on - that's why you may have to travel a bit further with her.

(To get her to do this smoothly we need to get her turning as (or before) she lifts her right foot - ie on Five)

After she's lifted her foot from the 5 but before she steps on it on the 6. (This is probably the only shaded point between us.)

On the 7 she's turned to face you and closes her left to her right ready for the pause beat and the step back on the left. You get a nice crisp turn and the momentum carries through the pause beat 8 8). If you lead her earlier, you lose this nice feeling though the move still works.

If leading one and a half turns outside cbl, yes I'd start the lead just about beat 4, making sure that she is led to step forwards as well as begin her body turning on 5 (direction before rotation). I would probably have brought her right foot forward of her left on the 3 to prepare energy (wind her up) for the one and a half turns.

If you start the simple half turn on the 5, you are making her turn unnaturally to the right on her left foot. This is do-able (viz the earlier thread on being ready to turn or spin in either direction on either foot) but less natural and IMO less harmonious as you later flow out of the move into the next.

 

[Flex]

I was taught not to turn until 7 :? then again, what do I know?

Yes, this is another way! You get a very crisp turn and the lady has more chance to do some flirty body styling as she goes forward, before zipping round and again the momentum, faster this time, carries through the 8 into the step-back on 1.

I take Bear's point that if the man wants to do a turn himself on the 567 then he may need to get the lead out of the way on the 5.

 

[Jambo]

Ahhhhh, the cloud is lifting I fink

 

[sweavo]

.....and all the time the theme tune to SCD is salsa!

Oh really!!!???!!! You could have knocked me down with a feather! :lol: Do educate me some more. Name and singer/band please. :lol:

It's "Strictly Come Dancing TV Theme" By Dan McGrath & Josh Phillips and performed by the Laurie Holloway Orchestra.

V. amusing. I think sweavo may have in mind that the basic dah-de-dah-dah, dah-de-dah is a clear 3:2 clave rhythm. Now I come to address this novel point....

Thankyou Flex, it's nice to have an enlightened contribution to this point!

I didn't say it was good salsa. But FFS, they use cowbell and brass on a clear cascara and clave backing to create a spicy exotic feel for the show, then dance salsa to "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" which, as any fule kno, is much more like a makossa than a mambo.

 

[terence]

It would be good if some shows on TV that portrayed Salsa in a ballroom fashion had a disclaimer stating that Ballroom is NOT Salsa, Ballroom imho is not dancing, but a choreographed series of moves desinged for show. I apologise to anyone who might take offense to this but it is entirely my own opinion.

Ballroom teachers should not be allowed to teach salsa unless explicitly advertise it as being of the ballroom variety.

Dont know where to begin !

Thats a pretty broad brush you have used-- NOT allowed ?-- salsa is many different things to many different people---

I,m not defending the way that many ( maybe most ) b/room teachers approach salsa-- thats their right !.

By the same token-- I dont like the way the majority of people approach the dance and the genre ( and that includes many latinos )-- but is that not their choice ?-- of course it is .

As to chor. for" show " -- there is a whole world of social dance out there which points to your lack of knowledge and understanding .

If you are in a position of multi yrs teaching, and dancing on a multi cultural basis-- then I might give weight to your words-- but that is quite apparently not so !

 

[salsaonline]

It would be good if some shows on TV that portrayed Salsa in a ballroom fashion had a disclaimer stating that Ballroom is NOT Salsa, but a version of it designed by ballroom dancers to assist with their method of dancing/coreography.

People gain the perception of salsa as being a ballroom dance which is actually a pity and in my opinion portays salsa in a bad light.

Ballroom imho is not dancing, but a choreographed series of moves desinged for show. I apologise to anyone who might take offense to this but it is entirely my own opinion.

Ballroom teachers should not be allowed to teach salsa unless explicitly advertise it as being of the ballroom variety.

Since no one seems to have responded to the second to last paragraph, I'll give a go.

I take ballroom lessons, and one thing the instructor does NOT tolerate are men who don't lead. We learn simple patterns, but nothing is "choreographed"--the lead is expected to be in control every step of the way.

And it works! I was dancing Foxtrot the other day with some new students who had just learned the basic steps. To keep things interesting, I mixed in a few things that the instructor hadn't taught yet, and it worked out okay. And I owe it all to the instructor's resounding emphasis on leading.

 

[antigone]

It would be good if some shows on TV that portrayed Salsa in a ballroom fashion had a disclaimer stating that Ballroom is NOT Salsa, but a version of it designed by ballroom dancers to assist with their method of dancing/coreography.

People gain the perception of salsa as being a ballroom dance which is actually a pity and in my opinion portays salsa in a bad light.

Ballroom imho is not dancing, but a choreographed series of moves desinged for show. I apologise to anyone who might take offense to this but it is entirely my own opinion.

Ballroom teachers should not be allowed to teach salsa unless explicitly advertise it as being of the ballroom variety.

Since no one seems to have responded to the second to last paragraph, I'll give a go.

I take ballroom lessons, and one thing the instructor does NOT tolerate are men who don't lead. We learn simple patterns, but nothing is "choreographed"--the lead is expected to be in control every step of the way.

And it works! I was dancing Foxtrot the other day with some new students who had just learned the basic steps. To keep things interesting, I mixed in a few things that the instructor hadn't taught yet, and it worked out okay. And I owe it all to the instructor's resounding emphasis on leading.

I'll second that. If you think that ballroom dancing is purely choreographed and competitive, maybe you haven't been exposed to the social side of it. In Boston, Harvard and MIT, which have the largest ballroom dance clubs in the city, regularly host social dance parties, gathering anywhere from 20 to 100 people at a time, sometimes in very nice settings. Ballroom studios also host social dance parties. Yes, some people still feel more comfortable doing their routines even in a social setting, but most advanced ballroom dancers enjoy improvising as much as salsa dancers do.

 

[Another AndrewS]

...... show dance by Vincent and Flavia

Ah, but wasn't their show Viennese Waltz terrific?

I've never done the VW and always hated it as a spectacle, a boring dance. The everlovin' who spent a few years in Vienna, loves it of course.

A while back towards the end of a salsa evening a song was played (no idea what) and along with many others I got up to dance, but for the life of me all I could do was struggle to find the beat. Or rather I could find it, but what I was hearing was the rapid 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 of the Viennese waltz, so I gave up trying to dance salsa with a beat missing and when I next got my partner into hold, whisked her off around the room. That was cool, especially when I noticed others had stopped dancing in the centre of the room to watch. (Not, I'm happy to say because we were stopping them struggling with their salsa.)

I do some ballroom as well as salsa (indeed started ballroom before salsa), and have to say salsa has helped me understand the need to - and how to - lead ballroom in a social dancing situation. The ballroom classes I've done have always been boys behind girls in front, teach the boys their bit, teach the girls their bit, do it over and over, and only then is the group allowed to try it as a couple. A lot of this is down to very specific technique and footwork, especially for the women, in the ballroom dances in particular, but it is at the expense of the men knowing how to lead, and the women how to follow. There's also a much, much stronger fixed partnership culture in ballroom, which means that it's less important for the man to know how to lead, as they both know their "pattern" and the woman can always back-lead. And it drives me mad! The crazy thing is I can have a much more enjoyable waltz with salseras who know the basics of waltz, than I can with the person I've been doing ballroom classes with for six years!

The main difficulty is that when you're ballroom dancing, you can't do the patterns you've been taught, at least not in the order you've been taught, because either you can't remember the whole complex pattern or there's somebody in the way: and that's where the follower needs to be able to follow and the leader to lead. Similarly, because ballroom dances are progressive dances, danced around the room - which is one of the most significant differences to my mind from salsa - you're constantly having to dodge all the other dancers - again it needs a good follower, but the leader has to be good too (better than I am most of the time, I think) to navigate a route round the ballroom as well as choreographing the dance, hopefully to the music! It's a joy to watch really proficient social dancers weave their way elegantly around a packed ballroom.
If your partner is your beloved and you go out dancing a lot, then you pick up these techniques. If, like me, you only dance with your regular partner in classes and otherwise very occasionally as she has husband, family, and most bizarrely a life outside dancing :roll: she never gets used to the leader's techniques for navigation and improvisation.
Salseras on the other hand just follow whatever the leader does.

When I do get a good partner and can let the music just take over, a waltz or a slow foxtrot can be utterly dreamy. Quickstep can be great fun, but a good one is like a 400 yard sprint and can make fast salsa seem very sedate. The ballroom tango is an abomination and I hate it.

 

[terence]

...... show dance by Vincent and Flavia

. There's also a much, much stronger fixed partnership culture in ballroom, which means that it's less important for the man to know how to lead, as they both know their "pattern" and the woman can always back-lead.




These statements could not be farther from the truth !!-- Dont know where you took your lessons-- but you need to get your money back !




The main difficulty is that when you're ballroom dancing, you can't do the patterns you've been taught, at least not in the order you've been taught, because either you can't remember the whole complex pattern or there's somebody in the way: and that's where the follower needs to be able to follow and the leader to lead. - .

.

Improvisation is the hallmark of a proficient dancer--- like every thing else you have learned in salsa-- do you keep that in the same order ALL the time ?

lastly-- you are comparing apples with oranges ,its virtually a non sequitor .

 

[salsaonline]

she never gets used to the leader's techniques for navigation and improvisation.
/quote]

I just follow my instructor's advice to lead with a firm right arm around her back. If, for example, I notice my partner is about to back into someone in Foxtrot, I can change directions as needed. She doesn't need to know anything about my technique--the firm right arm guarantees she's not going anywhere unless I take her there. If you time everything correctly, her feet will do the right thing too: for example, if she was about to step back with her left, but you decide to change directions and have her step forward instead, her foot will step forward when you push on her with your right hand because that's the most natural way for her to maintain balance. All the moves are designed, more or less, to work this way, so as long as the lady is relaxed, you should be able to lead her through all sorts of things. Leading is not in any way unique to salsa--it's just that salsa is a more popular social activity than ballroom, so salseras get more practice dancing with multiple partners than I think most ballroom students get.

I realize I'm saying a lot of obvious things here, but anyway, there you go.

 

[terence]

[quote=" she never gets used to the leader's techniques for navigation and improvisation.
/quote]

I just follow my instructor's advice to lead with a firm right arm around her back. If, for example, I notice my partner is about to back into someone in Foxtrot, I can change directions as needed.


Why ? compression is the technical term for what you are attempting to describe-- and there is NO need to change direction if that occurs









. If you time everything correctly, her feet will do the right thing too:

HUH ?????????????? -- dont know where you are getting this info from-- but if its from a " teacher "-- start looking for someone who REALLY understands the intricacies of motion




for example, if she was about to step back with her left, but you decide to change directions and have her step forward instead, her foot will step forward when you push on her with your right hand because that's the most natural way for her to maintain balance.


Thats the biggest load of hogwash Ive heard in a long time !






All the moves are designed, more or less, to work this way, so as long as the lady is relaxed, you should be able to lead her through all sorts of things. Leading is not in any way unique to salsa--it's just that salsa is a more popular social activity than ballroom, so salseras get more practice dancing with multiple partners than I think most ballroom students get.

I realize I'm saying a lot of obvious things here, but anyway, there you go.

The only obvious thing you are saying-- is your complete lack of knowledge about the subject of dance !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jambo]

How rude!!! :shock:

 

[Another AndrewS]

. There's also a much, much stronger fixed partnership culture in ballroom, which means that it's less important for the man to know how to lead, as they both know their "pattern" and the woman can always back-lead.

These statements could not be farther from the truth !!-- Dont know where you took your lessons-- but you need to get your money back !

The main difficulty is that when you're ballroom dancing, you can't do the patterns you've been taught, at least not in the order you've been taught, because either you can't remember the whole complex pattern or there's somebody in the way: and that's where the follower needs to be able to follow and the leader to lead. - .

Improvisation is the hallmark of a proficient dancer--- like every thing else you have learned in salsa-- do you keep that in the same order ALL the time ?

lastly-- you are comparing apples with oranges ,its virtually a non sequitor .

I should have put more emphasis on the fixed partnerships in the ballroom world as in my experience that's what leads to the other things I mentioned. Combined with the much more limited opportunity to practice than salsa. Myself and my partner are the only non-couple who regularly attend my classes, and she often comes with her husband so he can do the beginners' class with her. This might not be typical of everywhere in the UK, Europe or the world, but that's the way it is. The husbands and wives (and similar) who dance mainly if not solely with each other are a common feature in all the ballroom venues/classes I've visited. As in the thread here on SF about somebody not getting as many dances when their SO is in the room, so that limits the opportunity for singles to get the experience dancing.

 

[Flex]

How rude!!! :shock:

Indeed it was - T2 must have got out of bed the wrong side this morning! eace:

Thanks, AnotherAndrewS, for posts that some (well, one) may have found provocative but others will have found thought-provoking, contributing to this discussion (which I find interesting).

I agree with you about ballroom tango. Far from an inspiring example of what can happen when the appointed and anointed ballroom rulemakers take over a sublime but difficult (and entirely led) dance like the tango argentino. A cautionary lesson, were one needed, for us to resist a similar fate for salsa.

And so, back to the likes of Strictly Come Dancing: - do we really want salsa and AT to be included in a show run by the ballroom crowd? Hitherto I've been inclined to think 'yes' so that they reach an ever wider audience. And they've also been improving as real experts are brought in, even when they are BL people too: Vincent and Flavia are outstanding exponents of AT.

But now, I am not so sure.

 

[terence]

How rude!!! :shock:

Jambo-- what always is of great concern to me, is this--when someone writes " factual ?" technical info. on a dance site, they should always remember, that there are people reading these posts, that will take this inf. and try to adapt it to their own personal use .

My approach may seem a little harsh-- but I get so tired of people "out" of my profession giving advice on subject matter, without checking their facts . And, it was more directed to the person that was giving them the info.

Opinions are fine-- but technique, in many instances , is " standard "-- some may be fluid, but not in the instances quoted and specifically in B/room. .

 

[sweavo]

A while back towards the end of a salsa evening a song was played (no idea what) and along with many others I got up to dance, but for the life of me all I could do was struggle to find the beat. Or rather I could find it, but what I was hearing was the rapid 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 of the Viennese waltz, so I gave up trying to dance salsa with a beat missing and when I next got my partner into hold, whisked her off around the room.

Might have been an afro-cuban 6/8. It's related rhythmically to rumba where the lines between 4/4 and 6/8 are blurred. The first time I heard this in a club, I tried skipping 4 and 8 and going for it, it didn't really work. Most of the room was just blindly salsa-ing on, disconnected to the music. I posted on the net about this but don't remember getting any replies.

You usually won't hear this rhythm in a mainstream salsa venue because it's not salsa-able, but it does show up in places, e.g. the end of "the click" for a couple of bars, also "Coro Miyare" starts and ends with a 6/8 pattern though yer DJ will probably cut it off.