Is there more than one NY On2 timing?

Slowdance

Slowdance

Son
Sometimes I see people do On2 and all their steps seem equally divided time-wise as with On1, but shifted. So they still take steps on 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7. But then other people seem to (if I am not confused) step on 1, 2.5, 3, 5, 6.5, 7. Or maybe I'm off there.

But basically I am wondering if there is more than just one NY/On2 timing?

Thanks!
 
Oh and I know those specific numbers are wrong, I just mean that I swear I have seen or heard of some variations within NY On2.
 
Probably every dancer in NY has own timing, which is several ms (or more) different that timing of some other dancer dancing the same move. And also, several ms different than the same dancer dancing different move. And also, several ms different than the same dancer dancing the same move on different song. And also, several ms different than the same dancer dancing the same move on the same song, but with different partner. Or with the same partner wearing different pair of shoes. Etc

We discussed timing in various threads, including the last discussion a week or two ago, but didn't come to any final conclusion. Also, it looks like that people from different parts of the world count the steps slightly differently. What is the reference? Foot touching the floor? maximum weight transfer? 50.01% of full weight transfer? We can go deep in analysis, like I sometimes tried to do, but at the end, it wouldn't be of much use anyway ...
 
I think we should stop obsessing over such details and stop being anal retentive about it :)

Who cares if you are a quarter of a second ahead or behind when dancing. Can you even tell? Any one who says they can tell are like people who say they can tell which coke tastes better. Yet in the blind tastes it has been consistently shown that most people can't tell the difference. The same with the wine. In blind tastes it is often shown most people can't tell a difference between low cost wine and high cost wine. Yet when they know the price, people tend to rate higher priced wine to taste better. To say that we know our sensory perceptions (which includes timing) to accuracy of 1/4th of a second when the music is playing is highly doubtful. The music itself (especially live) may not keep the strict cadence to within 1/4th of a second consistently in every 4/8 beats bar. The same person would be easily vary by plus or minus 1/4th of a second within the same dance.

And then to the Vit's question - when do you decide the what counts as a step - touch down? weight transfer? etc.

It is not of much use other than for intellectual masturbation :)

Let's get with dancing!
 
My friend gets irritated with the fact that my steps have a slightly different timing than strictly even. And the reason I do it is because the first exposure I had to On2 was someone who often stepped deliberately with a slightly different timing. But it seems now, they dont do that as much as I thought. So now I feel like I am doing it wrong.

I can easily change my steps to the flat/even timing. I just wondered what is going on. I will just adjust my step to match her expectation. She is probably right, she usually is in these things. :)
 
The general dancing public becoming timing aware is a good thing, however it has gone beyond something to be aware of, into something folks use to beat each other over the head with!

Frankly, we adapt to our partners, and make a great dance. If you're keeping to a regular time, and you're not all over the place and your feet are in line with the tumbao, you won't be wrong.
 
Slowdance said:
My friend gets irritated with the fact that my steps have a slightly different timing than strictly even. And the reason I do it is because the first exposure I had to On2 was someone who often stepped deliberately with a slightly different timing. But it seems now, they dont do that as much as I thought. So now I feel like I am doing it wrong.

I can easily change my steps to the flat/even timing. I just wondered what is going on. I will just adjust my step to match her expectation. She is probably right, she usually is in these things. :)
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In ET On2 the 2 and 6 counts are pretty strict, but there's room for flexibility in the other counts. For example, guys often step the 3 late when leading a barrel turn. Also, some dancers like to step the 1 and 5 early by half or a full count.
 
Desafinado said:
In ET On2 the 2 and 6 counts are pretty strict, but there's room for flexibility in the other counts. For example, guys often step the 3 late when leading a barrel turn. Also, some dancers like to step the 1 and 5 early by half or a full count.
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I think that's the most concise and non-nerdy summary I've ever seen of the typical variations...
 
Desafinado said:
In ET On2 the 2 and 6 counts are pretty strict, but there's room for flexibility in the other counts. For example, guys often step the 3 late when leading a barrel turn. Also, some dancers like to step the 1 and 5 early by half or a full count.
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Yes, that's my impression as well

On the other side, european version of on2 seems to have 1 and 5 pretty strict and bold, while 2 and 6 are more flexible, having also less weigh transfer than NY on2. Steps 3 and 6 are usually connected with 2 and 6 and usually less than whole beat appart

While these differences don't seem to be big, I believe that bigger difference is in overall underlying body movement, and consequently, feeling of the connection. However, it's hard to "describe" those differences in body movement, so only way to learn dancing with similar "feel" like people from NY is to - dance with people from NY or those that at least spent some time dancing there

My personal preference is, I suppose, closer to NY on2, but it's because it's also closer to b/r timing. I don't believe that one version is superior over other or that there are some technical reasons for that. However, most correct way to dance NY style is obviously danced in NY area, as that's where the name came from
 
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Yes, I can tell when things are quarter second off :D that's a lot of time in salsa, if you stop and think about it. Nevertheless to answer original question, timing of nyon2 dancers is all over the place. But often anchors on 2 ;)
Imho weight shifts are more important than steps in most moves, so I'd focus on timing there. Or if you want to lead each step/move exactly due to musical restraints. Then focus on steps, prep them, force them and so on.
Or really forget about that and focus on basics - body movement, music, partnership.
 
Smejmoon said:
Imho weight shifts are more important than steps in most moves, so I'd focus on timing there.

.
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One creates the other, and the "time " allocation may vary dependant upon several factors.... i.e... Changes in music. partner ability, and.. HOW one has been instructed.
The cardinal sin in dance, was always being off time .
To allocate more attention to a specific problem, one needs to know cause, which creates effect

Here's a repeat of what I posted some time back.. 3 elements that control "dance "

1.. Muscle control
2.. Timing control
3... Balance control
Lose one, and you lose all 3
 
I think it's clearly essential to be on time.

I think that if we get too hung up on the micro-timing, ie when we're starting to talk about 1/8, 1/16 etc of a bar, it just starts to become a problem. Rather than seeing there as being one way 'more correct' than another. Why not recognise that getting 'in sync' with a partner involves 'feeling' out how to make your sense of rhythm combine, and that this takes care of such minutiae on an intuitive, rather than technical level.

Personally no matter what time I'm on, I'm always trying to work with my partner's rhythm to make things work that little bit better.

Yes good technique facilitates this, but over analysis seems a good way to strip out yet more spontaneity.

Please not that I find no excuses for not being able to the find the 1 or the 2, but the rest, well, that's dance biology ;)
 
Slowdance said:
My friend gets irritated with the fact that my steps have a slightly different timing than strictly even. And the reason I do it is because the first exposure I had to On2 was someone who often stepped deliberately with a slightly different timing. But it seems now, they dont do that as much as I thought. So now I feel like I am doing it wrong.

I can easily change my steps to the flat/even timing. I just wondered what is going on. I will just adjust my step to match her expectation. She is probably right, she usually is in these things. :)
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Go ahead and match her timing. Your friends seem to nitpick a lot. If I had people telling me they were irritated because of some small timing issue, i'd probably not dance with them again. Not because I get offended easily (I don't), but because I realize that these people were incredibly difficult to please, and no matter what I do, I would probably get nit picked again by the same people. Better to let them dance with people who can give them the dances they want, than having me struggle to please a small vocal minority. I'm sure that your friend has your best intentions at heart, but give me a break.

In the end, you dance the most with people in your local community, so it makes sense to dance to their timing (unless it's possible to get them to dance to yours :P)
 
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Offbeat said:
I think we should stop obsessing over such details and stop being anal retentive about it :)

Who cares if you are a quarter of a second ahead or behind when dancing. Can you even tell? Any one who says they can tell are like people who say they can tell which coke tastes better. Yet in the blind tastes it has been consistently shown that most people can't tell the difference. The same with the wine. In blind tastes it is often shown most people can't tell a difference between low cost wine and high cost wine. Yet when they know the price, people tend to rate higher priced wine to taste better. To say that we know our sensory perceptions (which includes timing) to accuracy of 1/4th of a second when the music is playing is highly doubtful. The music itself (especially live) may not keep the strict cadence to within 1/4th of a second consistently in every 4/8 beats bar. The same person would be easily vary by plus or minus 1/4th of a second within the same dance.

And then to the Vit's question - when do you decide the what counts as a step - touch down? weight transfer? etc.

It is not of much use other than for intellectual masturbation :)

Let's get with dancing!
Click to expand...
Awesome post Offbeat!!!
 
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As a NYC-based dancer, I have two immediate responses:

1. I went to an event last night that featured a free lesson at the beginning from a teacher who has some decent name recognition. He taught what he called NY-style timing with the first step on beat 1. It wasn't just beat 1 in name, either. It was literally beat 1 in the music. That said, dancers here with what I consider real flavor fudge the timing on beat 1 a bit earlier to the 8 or the 'and' of 8. Some people get this, some people don't. Both may claim to dance NY style.

(Side rant: very few teachers (in my experience) call that first step anything other than "1" which is frustrating. They should call it what it is: the 8 or the 'and' of 8. This would make transitioning from On 1 a hell of a lot easier...)

2. Sensitive dancers will adjust the non-stressed beats of their timing (everything except 2 and 6) to fit with the music, both in a general sense, and also for certain measures where one musical point or another catches their interest. (For instance, to me, it doesn't make sense to use the same basic/timing I use for Tito Puente's "Ninas y Senoras" as I would for El Canario's "Pensando toda el dia en ti". Some people might view this as different basics/timings. I view it as dancing to the music, and not to a pattern of steps. (Again, for both songs, I'm still breaking on 2 and 6. But I'll probably step a lot more on beat 1 for the Puente song.)

(Side rant #2: There are plenty of dancers who don't do this and frankly, it can be frustrating to dance with someone who dances the same way to every song, considering how many subgenres you would encounter on a typical dance event, and how many different rhythmic patterns are used within each subgenre.)
 
In my NY2 class I'll deliberately change it up so that I spend some time stepping on 8, some on &8 and some on the 1.
Based on the idea that it's not wrong if I'm aware of what I'm doing and that the practice will make me more versatile in matching a partner's timing.

Can't say much about socially though as it doesn't exist much in my city.
 
Poundpapi said:
As a NYC-based dancer, I have two immediate responses:

1. I went to an event last night that featured a free lesson at the beginning from a teacher who has some decent name recognition. He taught what he called NY-style timing with the first step on beat 1. It wasn't just beat 1 in name, either. It was literally beat 1 in the music. That said, dancers here with what I consider real flavor fudge the timing on beat 1 a bit earlier to the 8 or the 'and' of 8. Some people get this, some people don't. Both may claim to dance NY style.

(Side rant: very few teachers (in my experience) call that first step anything other than "1" which is frustrating. They should call it what it is: the 8 or the 'and' of 8. This would make transitioning from On 1 a hell of a lot easier...)

2. Sensitive dancers will adjust the non-stressed beats of their timing (everything except 2 and 6) to fit with the music, both in a general sense, and also for certain measures where one musical point or another catches their interest. (For instance, to me, it doesn't make sense to use the same basic/timing I use for Tito Puente's "Ninas y Senoras" as I would for El Canario's "Pensando toda el dia en ti". Some people might view this as different basics/timings. I view it as dancing to the music, and not to a pattern of steps. (Again, for both songs, I'm still breaking on 2 and 6. But I'll probably step a lot more on beat 1 for the Puente song.)

(Side rant #2: There are plenty of dancers who don't do this and frankly, it can be frustrating to dance with someone who dances the same way to every song, considering how many subgenres you would encounter on a typical dance event, and how many different rhythmic patterns are used within each subgenre.)
Click to expand...

The use of a prep step on "1" is pretty much universal for beginners .
The point is, it determines the musical sequence.
It also gives an option and or choice, of direction and break .
As to dancing the same way to every song, and getting people to change, good luck on that one !!..

Most of these issues are created by "teachers ?", who use the same music for classes, week in week out. They need to follow the adage "Music is the spice of life " and that means variety..

As I've stated in past posts, I've lost count of the number of students ( and teachers ) who have come to me for lessons who did not even know what a Clave is !!
"Dance "is, and always has been ,about education
.Fundamental foundational principles, are sadly lacking, in the repertoire of many " teachers? "t
 
Poundpapi said:
2. Sensitive dancers will adjust the non-stressed beats of their timing (everything except 2 and 6) to fit with the music, both in a general sense, and also for certain measures where one musical point or another catches their interest. (For instance, to me, it doesn't make sense to use the same basic/timing I use for Tito Puente's "Ninas y Senoras" as I would for El Canario's "Pensando toda el dia en ti". Some people might view this as different basics/timings. I view it as dancing to the music, and not to a pattern of steps. (Again, for both songs, I'm still breaking on 2 and 6. But I'll probably step a lot more on beat 1 for the Puente song.)
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Interesting - that makes sense :-)
 
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