Is Salsa a competitive sport?

[sweavo]

Showing cleavage doesn't get you 1/100th as far towards getting asked by a good leader as being a good dancer does.

After all, much safer for the guy to dance with someone else and check out her bazoongas over his partner's shoulder from a safe distance...

So imagine with me that we are watching a stage full of dancers, each trying to have more fun than the others. What a scene!
As a dancer, I do compete with myself in that I my next dance must be better than my last one, both for the fun and for the skills involved. More than that I strive to make sure my partners have better and better dance experiences, each surpassing the last. Surely that is the whole point.

:cheers:

 

[SnowDancer]

dancing with experienced dancers was bad because they would drag me through lots of complex moves, which stressed me out, and because the thought of how much of a disappointment I was to the leader made me even more anxious.

Odd to think that women might be thinking that way; as my thoughts, when things don't go right, are that I screwed up, either by leading incorrectly, or by choosing a move that's above the level of a beginning follow.

I've recently started to get a lot of enjoyment out of dancing with beginners, especially first-timers. You never know what you're going to get: some catch on really fast, others are nervous, some try to throw in too much style (maybe from watching 'Dancing with the Stars'). Adapting to each is a fun challenge, a bit like moguls on a ski slope.

 

[LARA7799]

When I registered for my first competition last week I asked my teacher how many other of his students were also participating. Imagine my surprise when he told me that out of the hundreds of people who take classes at his school, only about 3% are actually involved in competitive dancing.

He noticed the look of surprise on my face and explained that most real competitors are not even the ones showing off on the dancefloor at socials or clubs or congresses. The real competitiors -he said- are usually good dancers who want to feel improvement and give themselves a specific goal to achieve some progress. The average show-off dancer -he continued- is usually too chicken to go in front of an audience and even more scared of having a judge score his dancing in public.

In fact, he concluded, the people who actually do compete are in it just for themselves, while the people with the inferiority complexes are happy showing off in the comfort of social dancing and criticizing others when they take the stage.

What a great spin on what it means to be truly competitive. But it's so true. I think I'd definitely prefer people praising me socially, than formally compete. I could social dance and have the whole club watch, or perform in front of as many people possible with no difficulty. But compete? I'm waaaay too chicken. So maybe I'm not really competitive after all...hmmm...

 

[noobster]

What a great spin on what it means to be truly competitive. But it's so true. I think I'd definitely prefer people praising me socially, than formally compete. I could social dance and have the whole club watch, or perform in front of as many people possible with no difficulty. But compete? I'm waaaay too chicken. So maybe I'm not really competitive after all...hmmm...

It's also difficult to judge if you weren't 'raised' in a competition-oriented scene. I don't know what things are like in Houston, but I never saw or heard of a salsa competition in NYC. I did hear through the grapevine recently that Choco was trying to start one and that it got a generally negative reception, as people felt that "that's not what we do here."

I still find the whole idea of a salsa competition odd, although I'm getting more used to seeing them now.

 

[LARA7799]

What a great spin on what it means to be truly competitive. But it's so true. I think I'd definitely prefer people praising me socially, than formally compete. I could social dance and have the whole club watch, or perform in front of as many people possible with no difficulty. But compete? I'm waaaay too chicken. So maybe I'm not really competitive after all...hmmm...

It's also difficult to judge if you weren't 'raised' in a competition-oriented scene. I don't know what things are like in Houston, but I never saw or heard of a salsa competition in NYC. I did hear through the grapevine recently that Choco was trying to start one and that it got a generally negative reception, as people felt that "that's not what we do here."

I still find the whole idea of a salsa competition odd, although I'm getting more used to seeing them now.

I'm from NYC so that would make sense. I'm not sure what it's like in Houston either. I haven't been there yet.

 

[noobster]

Sorry, my bad! Somehow I thought you were there. Where's your scene again?

 

[Big10]

Sorry, my bad! Somehow I thought you were there. Where's your scene again?

LARA's a New Yorker. Too bad for her. I'm the one who's lucky enough to be in Houston.

And, yes, we do have occasional competitions here. I don't find anything wrong with that. I've entered only a couple of minor competitions in the past. I don't now because (1) I don't dance the style that typically wins competitions (i.e., turbo-spins and/or tricks) and (2) there are many dancers who are so far ahead of me and so much better than I am that I'd never win even if I tried to adopt that style.

I do have a competitive personality, and I'll admit that it was part of what kept me going when I was a beginner and early intermediate. However, I eventually reached the point that I realized I didn't want to dance like some of the people I was secretly competing against, and just accepted my dancing style for what it was, since that's what made me feel the music in the most fun way. I still try to get better, but I measure my improvement by goals that are personal to me, and not in comparison to other people.

 

[JonesNikka]

He noticed the look of surprise on my face and explained that most real competitors are not even the ones showing off on the dancefloor at socials or clubs or congresses. The real competitiors -he said- are usually good dancers who want to feel improvement and give themselves a specific goal to achieve some progress. The average show-off dancer -he continued- is usually too chicken to go in front of an audience and even more scared of having a judge score his dancing in public.

That definitely does not square with my experience. It's admittedly limited as I've only been in a 'competition-oriented' scene for four months now; but I specifically noticed that the best social dancers here are never seen in the competitions. There are some excellent social dancers around but it's always the sort of early intermediates who end up competing.

But I'd like to know what you mean by a 'show-off' social dancer. If a couple is dancing and having fun, and they also happen to be the best dancers on the floor, are they going to be called 'show-offs'?

The best social dancers are almost never show-offs. They are good at adapting to their partners, the music, their environment and manage to pull amazing moves making their partner and themselves look like they are doing the easiest basic.

Show-offs are the ones taking up all the space on the dancefloor, exaggerating their styling moves by doing arm-lines in between other couples' heads, doing dangerous dips and drops in the middle of the crowd, and pulling very difficult moves that they can not even lead and getting a kick out of making their partner look like they are not good enough to dance in their presence. Then they stand on the sidelines and criticize everyone else who does not dance like them and make profound observations they've overheard at some congress.

 

[GRx]

I used to think salsa competitions were silly because I always thought of salsa as a social dance. However after doing all the social dancing I could and all the student choreography groups I needed a new challenge and still wanted to get better. I took a look at my city and other cities that had way better dancers. The real difference is that the cities that were way better than mine had a lot of great competitors.

So in August I looked for the best Amateur competition I could find before the year end and said I would do it. And I did this past Sunday at the San Fran salsa congress. I did it for me and my partner and no one else. I did it to see if I can improve and choreograph my own routine. Did I win? Nope. Am I happy, you bet ya! It was a hell of a lot of work, but the experience was amazing.

I taped everything from day one and to see how much I improved over the past 3 months was crazy. I think I have enough video to do my own America's funniest home video show.

Anyway, I think if winning a prize is the main goal you may be sadly disappointed. Salsa like any other performance dance is subjective anyway and there CAN be a lot of politics involved. Also you will always find people who are competing outside of their skill level (ie pro level dancers competing in amateur) like in the SF competition. But to me I didn't care. I was so proud of my routine I did on my own with limited access to resources and we have no world champions to mentor us.

I would be more happy to lose to amazing competitors than to win a mediocre competition. Competitions aren't for everyone, but if you are in it for the right reasons the rewards are great. Just my 2 cents.

 

[opm1s6]

ummm, i don't hear about many comps here in the city, but someday I hope to be good enough for a jack and jill. Those aren't exactly the same thing as a performance comp, but they look like a lot of fun. I think of it like competitive social dancing, which takes the choreography out of it and adds a hell of a lot of fun.

 

[agarcia97]

I think the Jack and Jills are much more of a standard in my eyes because it takes a real ability to lead and follow. Anyone can learn a routine as I know some of the dancers who performed are very new and struggle social dancing.

 

[GRx]

I think the Jack and Jills are much more of a standard in my eyes because it takes a real ability to lead and follow. Anyone can learn a routine as I know some of the dancers who performed are very new and struggle social dancing.

I agree somewhat but I disagree that anyone can "learn a routine". I'd love to see someone try and emulate any routine designed by Oliver and perform with the exact precision it is meant to be. Maybe some elementary routine with basic CBLs and your standard dips is what you mean.

I've done both freestyle and now a choreographed competition and they are two different things. Both are good and I like both.

It's like saying what is better, basketball competition at Rucker's park or an NBA playoff game? 2 different things in my humble opinion.

Don't knock it until you try it. I used to think the same thing, but choreographing and executing a COMPLEX routine is not as easy it looks. If it looks easy then that is a good thing. Oliver makes it look dead simple until you try and do what he does.

 

[chr]

If it looks easy then that is a good thing. Oliver makes it look dead simple until you try and do what he does.

I think that applies to social dancing as well: one of the biggest improvement in dancing comes from eliminating superfluous movements and doing what's really essential. It is hard, though.

 

[vata07]

Salsa is a competitive sport, where become technically better only restricts the number of people you want to dance with/enjoy dancing with.
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In all other forms of movement I've ever done becoming better made the sport more enjoyable, but with Salsa I am wondering. It just doesn't sound like the fun is bigger the better you are.

i've actually been thinking a lot about this lately and i think its happening to me. i think being more "selective" in who you choose to dance with is a natural progession (although i'm NOT implying that i've gone past what you guys call the "improver" stage).

we (especially the ladies) can sit up in here all we want and says a good lead should be able to lead someone through "anything" but that's not true. try leading someone off the street (someone with no concept of balance,weight transfer, arm tension,etc) in an int/adv salsa pattern and see what happens. its like speaking a language. the fact is, follows need to continue with lessons as well. there are simply certain subtle things they need to know...and i'm one of the better leads in my area now.

with this in mind, i guess i have become "selective" as my enjoyment is being able dance as clean and technically crips as possible. gone are the days of asking the "drop in" girls doing salsa for the first time to dance. all the ever get is intimidated and never come back anyways. so basically my criteria is that you have to have a certain level of salsa lessons behind you for me to really enjoy dancing with you. i know i know, i suck now but i have to be honest. i'll still dance with beginners but they have to prove that they're really interested in getting better; i won't give up on them. its the once a month girls i've had to think twice about now...

so i guess my natural evolution at this stage is approaching snobbery on some level...the very thing i vowed never to be...

 

[TrulyMadlyAmanda]

i guess i have become "selective" as my enjoyment is being able dance as clean and technically crips as possible. gone are the days of asking the "drop in" girls doing salsa for the first time to dance.

lol. it's MUCH less painful to lead someone bad, than be lead by them.....TRUST ME! physically and psychologically, lol.

if the follower's a bit pants, then i mainly do x-body lead, single turn and variations thereof....maybe a lot of shines too... my personal bugbear is heavy followers...if i'm asking a strange woman to dance, i usually ask the fattest in the room. most bigger girls (i include myself) are so paranoid about being heavy, that they're sometimes the lightest followers...

but if you're following, and the leader's a bit pants, then sometimes it's say goodbye to all timing, space to express the music and bloodflow to your limbs... usually, the worse the lead is, the more he'll "insist" you follow him....so if he's dancing on 'the beat of a different drum' and you try to stay on 1, or 3 or whatever's closest to something he's doing, he'll use his body to force you to follow his 'rhythm', keeping tight, stiff, hold of your arms at all times.

so that leaves your head, hips and feet to dance to the music with...except that if you do any embroidery on a basic step with your feet, he'll stop dead in confusion. if you wiggle your hips, he'll become attached to you by the long line of drool passing from the corner of his mouth to your (previously clean) hair. and there's only so many head rolls a girl can do to a basic step, before the men in white with the giant nets come...

apropos of....?

....erm, something. i think...

 

[sweavo]

lol. it's MUCH less painful to lead someone bad, than be lead by them.....TRUST ME! physically and psychologically, lol.

if the follower's a bit pants, then i mainly do x-body lead, single turn and variations thereof....maybe a lot of shines too... my personal bugbear is heavy followers...if i'm asking a strange woman to dance, i usually ask the fattest in the room. most bigger girls (i include myself) are so paranoid about being heavy, that they're sometimes the lightest followers...

but if you're following, and the leader's a bit pants, then sometimes it's say goodbye to all timing, space to express the music and bloodflow to your limbs... usually, the worse the lead is, the more he'll "insist" you follow him....so if he's dancing on 'the beat of a different drum' and you try to stay on 1, or 3 or whatever's closest to something he's doing, he'll use his body to force you to follow his 'rhythm', keeping tight, stiff, hold of your arms at all times.

so that leaves your head, hips and feet to dance to the music with...except that if you do any embroidery on a basic step with your feet, he'll stop dead in confusion. if you wiggle your hips, he'll become attached to you by the long line of drool passing from the corner of his mouth to your (previously clean) hair. and there's only so many head rolls a girl can do to a basic step, before the men in white with the giant nets come...

apropos of....?

....erm, something. i think...

Hmm, did we slip into caricature for a moment there? Or is this exactly what usually happens? If so, I'm sure you must be doing something wrong

But I definitely hear you about it being easier to be a leader surrounded by noobs than a follower surrounded by noobs. Usually leaders get a good way past beginner before they realise it's not about MAKING HER DO MOVES AT ALL COSTS ... if they ever do!

 

[terence]

I agree somewhat but I disagree that anyone can "learn a routine".

Then this might convince you... many yrs back , i had the privilege of teaching a basic routine to a group of mentally challenged young adults.. they performed it admirably

 

[GForce85]

i've actually been thinking a lot about this lately and i think its happening to me. i think being more "selective" in who you choose to dance with is a natural progession (although i'm NOT implying that i've gone past what you guys call the "improver" stage).

we (especially the ladies) can sit up in here all we want and says a good lead should be able to lead someone through "anything" but that's not true. try leading someone off the street (someone with no concept of balance,weight transfer, arm tension,etc) in an int/adv salsa pattern and see what happens. its like speaking a language. the fact is, follows need to continue with lessons as well. there are simply certain subtle things they need to know...and i'm one of the better leads in my area now.

with this in mind, i guess i have become "selective" as my enjoyment is being able dance as clean and technically crips as possible. gone are the days of asking the "drop in" girls doing salsa for the first time to dance. all the ever get is intimidated and never come back anyways. so basically my criteria is that you have to have a certain level of salsa lessons behind you for me to really enjoy dancing with you. i know i know, i suck now but i have to be honest. i'll still dance with beginners but they have to prove that they're really interested in getting better; i won't give up on them. its the once a month girls i've had to think twice about now...

so i guess my natural evolution at this stage is approaching snobbery on some level...the very thing i vowed never to be...

I've been this same way for a while now. I do dance with beginners, but I generally don't ask unless I've been seeing them around or they're friends with one of my friends. Frankly, I'm not the type to be able to enjoy 4 minutes worth of CBLs and clockwise turns and spinning myself in every way possible while still holding on to the follower. It may be a "challenge", but it's not fun. However, if I see them around regularly, I can at least assert that they're trying to get better and I'll do my part to help. And I'll do it with a smile plastered on my face (albeit a fake one, but I got plenty of fake smiles when I was a rookie, and they did help. Heck, I probably still get fake smiles sometimes now, and if so, they still help). But then what gets me is the ones that seem to never improve from an unpleasant level. If I've been dancing with a lady almost every week for like 4 months and she still has the same annoying (but easily correctable with effort) problems she did the first time I danced with her, at some point I just stop asking. If you bang your head against a wall a few times :headwall: and it starts to hurt :cry:, it's advisable to stop. I put a lot of effort into improving myself and being enjoyable to dance with, so I get frustrated when I feel like others aren't making any effort. I don't know whether that's ok, but it's how I feel regardless. I've only had that happen a few times though, and luckily it's less than the number of times I've seen ladies grow into very fun and pleasant followers.

Regarding the choreography, I agree that anyone can learn it. But that's because anyone can learn to dance. Tough choreography can't be learned until certain skills are built, even if said skills are built over the course of learning the routine. Will that make someone a good social dancer? No, but those newly acquired skills will make them far better equipped to become one. It's a lot easier to start learning to handle the spontaneity of social dancing when you at least have some of the technique down. I think I was making a point somewhere in there, but it's late so I quit.

 

[GRx]

Regarding the choreography, I agree that anyone can learn it. But that's because anyone can learn to dance. Tough choreography can't be learned until certain skills are built, even if said skills are built over the course of learning the routine. Will that make someone a good social dancer? No, but those newly acquired skills will make them far better equipped to become one. It's a lot easier to start learning to handle the spontaneity of social dancing when you at least have some of the technique down. I think I was making a point somewhere in there, but it's late so I quit.

Nicely said. I want to add that too many social dancers where I am from just do turn pattern after turn pattern, spin after spin. You see some leaders doing multiple double touch and go's right off the bat during the start of a romantica. Impressive, yes to a beginner, but there is usually no musicality, hitting the breaks, changing your dancing during the descarga. It makes me wonder what they are listening to and if they are just going through the motions.

From MY experience learning or creating your own complex choreography will help you appreciate and queue on the different instruments, moods and change of pace in music. This alone has helped my social dancing in the last 3 months.

 

[GRx]

Then this might convince you... many yrs back , i had the privilege of teaching a basic routine to a group of mentally challenged young adults.. they performed it admirably

That's awesome Terence and respect to you. In case you didn't read the rest of my sentence it stated...

"...Maybe some elementary routine with basic CBLs and your standard dips is what you mean."

And I was referring this to the average person and not the group you worked with.

So no I don't think anyone can just learn a routine if the routine is complex like the way Oliver choreographs. That's like me saying anyone can learn to play the congas and play it like Ray Barretto.