Interesting question / Some stuff better than others...

G

gabe0725

Changui
Why is it, that when a particular artist is with a group or a leader, their stuff is great, but when their on their own, it's not horrible but not up to the expectations we're used to hearing from them.

For example, for me.... I would definitely say Andy Montanez fits this question perfectly. As we all know, his stuff with Gran Combo is amazing. His vocal skills are incredible and he could bring the art of the sonar to anyone in my opionion at that time frame. But his later stuff definitely doesn't catch my attention. Maybe a song here or there.

Another guy is Tito Gomez, his stuff with Poncena is great. But solo, not too fond of him.

Not to say that either of these gentlemens later stuff is garbage cuz it's not. Just to me, it's not what I'm used to hearing. They both packed that extremely heavy sound and once they went solo, it was a totally different path.

Anyone out there can put an explanation to this for me.....
 
gabe0725 said:
Why is it, that when a particular artist is with a group or a leader, their stuff is great, but when their on their own, it's not horrible but not up to the expectations we're used to hearing from them.

For example, for me.... I would definitely say Andy Montanez fits this question perfectly. As we all know, his stuff with Gran Combo is amazing. His vocal skills are incredible and he could bring the art of the sonar to anyone in my opionion at that time frame. But his later stuff definitely doesn't catch my attention. Maybe a song here or there.

Another guy is Tito Gomez, his stuff with Poncena is great. But solo, not too fond of him.

Not to say that either of these gentlemens later stuff is garbage cuz it's not. Just to me, it's not what I'm used to hearing. They both packed that extremely heavy sound and once they went solo, it was a totally different path.

Anyone out there can put an explanation to this for me.....
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Did you here any of Tito Gomez's work with Grupo Niche? He made a lot of hits with them. Gomez had one of the most unique voices in salsa.
 
To be completely honest with you, I pretty much just found out recently that he sang with them. I'll definitely look into those cd's.
 
gabe0725 said:
To be completely honest with you, I pretty much just found out recently that he sang with them. I'll definitely look into those cd's.
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Try this one:
31SVG2JAS0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg


It's hard to find but Gomez fronts all except two songs.
 
I would guess that when they form part of the original band - - that band has a sound of it's own and the singer is just a part of that sound, not the reason for it. They play together, travel together and know how to feed off of one-another.

When a record company grabs that singer and takes them to their recording studio to make a record - - they leave behind the band they're comfortable with.....they probably gather a whole mess of musicians who are on their payroll who never talk to one-another and don't know the sound the guy was used to playing with and just lay out their instrument's sound in layers......never really pushing it or improvising. The primary purpose now being the singer's voice......they don't want the music to overpower the musician's voice.....so it gets very watered down.....

happens alot...............Charlie Cardona with Grupo Niche.........Huey Dunbar with DLG are more modern examples that come to mind.....
 
It's quite common, I think it has more to do with record companies trying to 'move with the times' in an attempt to attract a wider audience, which goes back to the commercial vs classic debate.

A couple more that spring to mind are Johnny Ray (Zamot) and Tito Rojas, I'm not saying their solo albums are all rubbish, just that they are examples of artists who went down the 'commercial' road ;)
 
from the array of variables that possibly led to such diluted music, mainly so for the "older" musicians, was the time in which the change from group to solo was made. The change occurred during a transition period. Salsa was changing from a robust sound to a more monotone one (romantic). In the attempts to cash-in on the new money-generating-wave of salsa, the artists, and record companies modified styles, drowning out the rich sound of classical salsa. A sound which enhanced even less stellar voices. There are a multitude of average singers in classic salsa that, because of the richness of the music, were able to take part in great songs.

I've witness live events for both Andy and Tito when they have sung from their solo repertoire, and they've been spectacular. The band is given a chance to shine, just as the vocalist has. Being that my preference is for a richer sound, I often wish they again changed to the "Gordo" sound. But, I do understand that the "Gordo" sound still doesn't yield such prosperity as the more diluted and mainstream sound.

Marc Anthony for instance, this cat sounds mightily amazing singing classic salsa. In my opinion; at a more appealing level than his salsa romantica. However, had he gone the way of Frankie Vasquez and followed the "gordo" sound, he would have never reached such acclaimed global fame. The purists might not like the sound, but the chance of prosperity, even if it fails, is greater by following mainstream's desires.

On the other hand, there are those who prefer Andy's and Tito Gomez' music as Solo artists rather than with their previous groups/bands. There is no telling these folks that Achilipu is better than Querube
 
borikenSalsero said:
from the array of variables that possibly led to such diluted music, mainly so for the "older" musicians, was the time in which the change from group to solo was made. The change occurred during a transition period. Salsa was changing from a robust sound to a more monotone one (romantic). In the attempts to cash-in on the new money-generating-wave of salsa, the artists, and record companies modified styles, drowning out the rich sound of classical salsa. A sound which enhanced even less stellar voices. There are a multitude of average singers in classic salsa that, because of the richness of the music, were able to take part in great songs.

I've witness live events for both Andy and Tito when they have sung from their solo repertoire, and they've been spectacular. The band is given a chance to shine, just as the vocalist has. Being that my preference is for a richer sound, I often wish they again changed to the "Gordo" sound. But, I do understand that the "Gordo" sound still doesn't yield such prosperity as the more diluted and mainstream sound.

Marc Anthony for instance, this cat sounds mightily amazing singing classic salsa. In my opinion; at a more appealing level than his salsa romantica. However, had he gone the way of Frankie Vasquez and followed the "gordo" sound, he would have never reached such acclaimed global fame. The purists might not like the sound, but the chance of prosperity, even if it fails, is greater by following mainstream's desires.

On the other hand, there are those who prefer Andy's and Tito Gomez' music as Solo artists rather than with their previous groups/bands. There is no telling these folks that Achilipu is better than Querube
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Wassup Bro ... loooooooogtime
 
I played with Tito Gomez for over five years and he always said his best experience was with Ray Barretto. Man, he loved to sing Guarare live. RIP Tito.

An outstanding performance from Andy Montanez is with the Puerto Rico All Stars from the "De Regreso" (1996) album singing "Boricua Hasta la Muerte". Check it out on the PR All Stars myspace.

I think the answer to gabe's question is that, in the case of Tito Gomez as an example, when he was with Poncena and Barretto he was surrounded by many of the best musicians and bands at the time. The level of musicianship and arrangements was so high and when he went solo he didn't have that ultra high level of talent surrounding him in the studio and on the bandstand. Still, he performed at a very high level vocally up until his death.

Niche has always been a great sounding band. Not always in clave, but high musicianship and great vocal performances. I've always enjoyed hearing Grupo Niche and playing with many of their former vocalists, including Tito Gomez and Son de Cali.

In the 70's and early 80's most bands recorded with their working personnel. That changed in the later 80's and 90's and only a few musicians and arrangers did the work. Sergio George was big with RMM and he had a tightly knit group of recording musicians. Because of the highly produced studio recordings of salsa romantica during the late 80's and 90's it became almost impossible to achieve that sound in a live situation. Plus in most cases there wasn't a steady group of personnel to bring the music up to a high performance level -- there's nothing like a band that works and travels together night after night and get really, really tight. Most singers eventually stopped traveling with their own bands due to economic reasons -- they would just bring a musical director to facilitate rehearsals/gigs with pick up bands when they traveled to South America and Europe. But they usually retained a fairly regular group of New York based musicians for gigs in New York, D.C., Boston and the southern/eastern U.S and occasional overseas travel when the budget was there (for example, I went to Italy with Tony Vega for the Festival Latinoamericando in 2007 because the producers of that festival had a big budget).
 
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