How to tame the salsa beast and enslave it?

[petteri]

The discussion on Dancing On~2 with an On~1 partner thread was getting heavily out of topic. So I started a new thread. The discussion started with the term timing, but I think "salsa quality" is better term in my case.

@petteri.
1) focus on the music. It has the answers.
2) focus on the partner. Iirc you dance puppet master styla try dancing mostly in the closed position. This will force common timing.
3) buy a metronome, hehehe. Greatest teacher of all times for the price.

But if salsa music follows a metronome, I feel it easy to dance to. But most old salsa music does not, rhythm varies all the time. If I compare salsa to dancesport latin, it is very different, in dancesport music has the same tempo, which follows a metronome and muscle memory generally keeps dance on the right track, only minor adjustments are needed. When I dance dancesport dances I can let subconscious mind to take care most of the rhythm.

Salsa is different. I think part of my salsa quality problem is that I have tended to count salsa music bit like a metronome instead of just grabbing a beat and sticking to it. Being too conscious about the rhythm as well as being distracted all the time when music tempo changes or there are some other distractions. Could the inconsistent timing be a symptom of the disease instead of being a cause?

There also probably are also some muscle memory based things which distracts my timing (namely ET2 beat 3-5 ospeeding when moving forward.). But I think that the base of my salsa quality trouble is not generally figure based or muscle memory based, it is distraction based, counting based, stagnant feet based and emotion based.

When I just connect with a dance partner emotionally, turn off the brains and move strongly everything works and distractions do not cause trouble. But when I worry about the music or the partner I get more anxious and mistakes or changes on music throw me off. I feel like helpless slave being severely dragged by beats instead of being the ruler of the rhythm.

How could I tame and enslave the salsa beast?

 

[terence]

.




I think part of my salsa quality problem is that I have slave being severely dragged by beats instead of being the ruler of the rhythm.

quote]

from your previus posts. i believe you said that Comp. B/room was your 1st priority ?..
If this be the case ( and theres nothing wrong with that ), therein lies your immediate problem .
Salsa is much more unpredictable than the rigid format of BR tempos .Its very difficult , and I speak from past experiences, of spending more yrs than you may imagine ,in the world of BR, and then trying ( and suceeding ) to overcoming that indoctrination..

Breaking ground rules that , in the BR world would not be acceptable, is part of the norm in Salsa. This appears to be ,what you are mentally " fighting " .

As to cure.. One needs immersion into the culture, which in most cases is not practical . Alternatively, put BR on the "back burner " for an extended period .

 

[SalsaGipsy]

I actually disagree with terence (partially). Immersion into the culture will not help cure the timing problems. Also it's not realistic to ask you to sacrifice your ballroom practice since that's your preference.

My original advice (from the other thread) was not meant as adding more salsa practice. That would be beneficial but probably not realistic. You mentioned that you sometimes practice salsa too and I was suggesting to do that in a more "targeted" way.

BTW the tempo of salsa songs rarely changes. It only sounds like this because of the complex interactions between the different layers in the music.

 

[petteri]

from your previus posts. i believe you said that Comp. B/room was your 1st priority ?..

Right. Definitely dancesport is my number 1 and serious dance hobby and salsa just gives some breaks from it.

If this be the case ( and theres nothing wrong with that ), therein lies your immediate problem .
Salsa is much more unpredictable than the rigid format of BR tempos .Its very difficult , and I speak from past experiences, of spending more yrs than you may imagine ,in the world of BR, and then trying ( and suceeding ) to overcoming that indoctrination..

Breaking ground rules that, in the BR world would not be acceptable, is part of the norm in Salsa. This appears to be ,what you are mentally " fighting " .

As to cure.. One needs immersion into the culture, which in most cases is not practical . Alternatively, put BR on the "back burner " for an extended period .

That is a very good view of point.

 

[terence]

BTW the tempo of salsa songs rarely changes. It only sounds like this because of the complex interactions between the different layers in the music

.

I could pull out songs from library ( without even trying ) where tempos DO increase; it even happens in live concerts .

 

[terence]

Right. Definitely dancesport is my number 1 and serious dance hobby and salsa just gives some breaks from it.



That is a very good view of point.

for those who were never heavily involved in BR, it may be difficult to perceive .

 

[sweavo]

But if salsa music follows a metronome, I feel it easy to dance to. But most old salsa music does not, rhythm varies all the time. If I compare salsa to dancesport latin, it is very different, in dancesport music has the same tempo, which follows a metronome and muscle memory generally keeps dance on the right track, only minor adjustments are needed. When I dance dancesport dances I can let subconscious mind to take care most of the rhythm.

I would be interested to hear some of these tracks that you say are not metronomic. With an example I might be able to unpack what it is in the music that makes you feel that way. The others are right on here when they say that there is in most salsa tracks very little variation of actual tempo. But there are tricks that differ between different styles and eras. Some salsa music that you don't hear out in most clubs DOES in fact change rhythm and tempo. Cuban timba has an idea of shifting gears, where the tempo is not changed, but the syncopations do change and the music gets a greater sense of urgency. Finally, in some recordings, the band slowly accelerates throughout the song.

Salsa is different. I think part of my salsa quality problem is that I have tended to count salsa music bit like a metronome instead of just grabbing a beat and sticking to it. Being too conscious about the rhythm as well as being distracted all the time when music tempo changes or there are some other distractions. Could the inconsistent timing be a symptom of the disease instead of being a cause?

When I just connect with a dance partner emotionally, turn off the brains and move strongly everything works and distractions do not cause trouble. But when I worry about the music or the partner I get more anxious and mistakes or changes on music throw me off. I feel like helpless slave being severely dragged by beats instead of being the ruler of the rhythm.

How could I tame and enslave the salsa beast?

I really like this way of looking at the rhythms. I began to think this a couple years back when thinking about the trouble that dancers have with the music. There's an attitude almost of combat in the rhythm section. Many of the musical devices that are now just part of what makes salsa salsa were put there as part of a long running game between the arranger and the listener/dancer. It's supposed to be hard to find the beat, it's supposed to be hard to anticipate the breaks; that's what gives you the ego boost when you nail that break, or don't fall for the false ending

The above paragraph is, of course, a caricature, an exaggeration. But having a germ of that attitude will IMO help you enjoy salsa music. Although you may never actually tame the salsa beast, you will have a lot of great battles!

 

[terence]

I actually disagree with terence (partially). Immersion into the culture will not help cure the timing problems. Also it's not realistic to ask you to sacrifice your ballroom practice since that's your preference.
.

From a musical standpoint, thats exctly what he needs. As a former BR competitor, from a very young age, going into a new paradigm , takes re learning new concepts, and if one only " dabbles " in a secondary dance genre, then they will always fall back into what they "know ".

Timing problems are universal, have dealt with it, teaching teachers and students for many yrs. BR people ALWAYS, with little exceptions, retain the concepts with which they are used to ( Im talking style and timing ),so,unless one is prepared to make sacrifices,and as I said, I know immersion is not practical for most, and also immersion will not " cure " timing problems in the " immediate ", but, it will eventually ( the mind, that is ) start to replace the metronome that exists in the world of dance in BR , with the more complex rhythms of Salsa.

And heres what I really believe ; Anyone who can attain comp. standards in BR, has the capability to assimilate the nuances in Salsa. The mind block that now exists with him, can be overcome (BTDT ), hence my reasoning .

This is empirical evidence.. and if you dont have that background ( BR ), then assumptions dont count .

 

[SalsaGipsy]

I could pull out songs from library ( without even trying ) where tempos DO increase; it even happens in live concerts .

Of course it can happen but to say that most songs change tempo will be incorrect. It is other factors that make it more difficult to dance to salsa music.

 

[terence]

Finally, in some recordings, the band slowly accelerates throughout the song.

Exactly.. ( and I wish it wouldnt !! ) ..

 

[SalsaGipsy]

From a musical standpoint, thats exctly what he needs. As a former BR competitor, from a very young age, going into a new paradigm , takes re learning new concepts, and if one only " dabbles " in a secondary dance genre, then they will always fall back into what they "know ".

Timing problems are universal, have dealt with it, teaching teachers and students for many yrs. BR people ALWAYS, with little exceptions, retain the concepts with which they are used to ( Im talking style and timing ),so,unless one is prepared to make sacrifices,and as I said, I know immersion is not practical for most, and also immersion will not " cure " timing problems in the " immediate ", but, it will eventually ( the mind, that is ) start to replace the metronome that exists in the world of dance in BR , with the more complex rhythms of Salsa.

And heres what I really believe ; Anyone who can attain comp. standards in BR, has the capability to assimilate the nuances in Salsa. The mind block that now exists with him, can be overcome (BTDT ), hence my reasoning .

This is empirical evidence.. and if you dont have that background ( BR ), then assumptions dont count .

Apparently we mean different things by immersion into the culture. For you it seems to mean to go into salsa more seriously. I agree, that would be the best thing to do. But I am trying to be constructive here. If you say that that's the only way then petteri will just reason that it is not worth it at all since this is not a priority for him.

I believe that working selectively on the specific problems will help too even if he doesn't spend all his free time practicing.

 

[tallpaul]

Yes - some old salsa music speeds up some of the time.

(Rather than the original claim that MOST old salsa music changes tempo ALL of the time).

Would it help to practice with the Salsa Beat Machine smartphone app, rather than an actual metronome? Something that will give you a steady tempo, but will give you a variety of typical salsa rhythms to internalise, with all the clave-based syncopation and tension-release that goes with them?

But I think that point about the contrasting BR and Salsa cultures is a fair one - cultural readjustment is necessary.

 

[terence]

[quote="tallpaul, post: 222024, But I think that point about the contrasting BR and Salsa cultures is a fair one - cultural readjustment is necessary.[/quote]

One doesnt have to look too far, even some of the " english " teachers, on the "circuit " STILL teach a BR style salsa . And , its as prevalent, in the States .

Believe me , when I first got into mambo ( and I had close to 20 yrs BR background ) it seemed to take me for ever, to convert ,until I found a Latino club, which answered so many questions.

 

[vit]

Hm ... strange. Yes, some salsa songs speeds up towards end of the song or towards the middle and then slows down a bit or so ... But these changes are usually gradual, can't imagine it could be a big problem, as I also came from competitive ballroom. Maybe because when I was dancing, music was played from cassette decks and every deck had slightly different speed so I had to get used to it. And also, there is a range of tempos even for ballroom song (although quite narrow) and there are also some songs where tempo isn't constant or is hard to catch (on top level b/r standard competitions, some songs are quite lyrical, without percussion). Also, I never met a girl that was dancing ballroom seriously/competitively with timing problems. However, I think I also never met a person from social ballroom without timing problems and most of them never cured it ...

 

[premier]

Having watched you dance quite a few times and reading your posts here I can offer you a few advice

1. I like the fact that you actually go social dancing often This will definitely help to tame the beast eventually.

2. Go to actual salsa classes where they teach you to do the basic stuff with proper technique and timing. And I'm talking about really basic level classes here with heavy emphasis on basic technique. This makes a HUGE difference in how your dancing looks. Doing advanced patterns without proper basic technique just don't look or feel right. This would also help you with some of the timing problems. I know it might feel strange going to beginner class, but that's what the pro's do. They constantly cycle beginner-intermediate-advanced classes. You're at the advanced part of the cycle and need to revisit the basics again

3. Immerse yourself to salsa music and learn about the musical structure and salsa rhythms so you'll be able to find the one without exceptions. This is the primary cure for your timing problems. Don's Music for dancers series is a good starting point http://www.youtube.com/user/Music4Dancers I spent my first 6 months of dancing listening to salsa everyday in my car tapping to the steering wheel, core beats, up beats, clave, tumbao whatever to improve my timing. Works like charm.

4. Practice your shines. This will make your foot work snappier all around and teach you those important shines skills of course. This will also allow you to practice your timing and keeping your timing.

5. Practice with a partner. When you go to classes, make sure you practice what they taught on your own time too. Practice makes perfect and there's really no way around it.

Keep up the good work!

 

[petteri]

Thanks for your advice, premier.

1. I like the fact that you actually go social dancing often

I try dance socially when I can.

2. Go to actual salsa classes where they teach you to do the basic stuff with proper technique and timing. And I'm talking about really basic level classes here with heavy emphasis on basic technique. This makes a HUGE difference in how your dancing looks. Doing advanced patterns without proper basic technique just don't look or feel right. This would also help you with some of the timing problems. I know it might feel strange going to beginner class, but that's what the pro's do. They constantly cycle beginner-intermediate-advanced classes. You're at the advanced part of the cycle and need to revisit the basics again

Well. Going back to classes there patterns are trivial is a good suggestion. I am currently such a pattern monkey in local standards that going back to a class where pattern base would be intermediate could give good chance just to concentrate on details instead of messing around. Intermediate patterns contain all the basic staff. Also at the intermediate level there often are followers who know what they are doing at least in a class setting.

Too bad it is no open salsa classes over here which with promote proper technique and timing. All classes which have technique orientation would require weekly commitment for a season, which is impossible for me.

3. Immerse yourself to salsa music and learn about the musical structure and salsa rhythms so you'll be able to find the one without exceptions. This is the primary cure for your timing problems. Don's Music for dancers series is a good starting point http://www.youtube.com/user/Music4Dancers I spent my first 6 months of dancing listening to salsa everyday in my car tapping to the steering wheel, core beats, up beats, clave, tumbao whatever to improve my timing. Works like charm.

I have noticed your iron grip of basic timing. I also listen salsa every now and then, but could do more.

4. Practice your shines. This will make your foot work snappier all around and teach you those important shines skills of course. This will also allow you to practice your timing and keeping your timing.

Good advice. I have started to drill shines again.

5. Practice with a partner. When you go to classes, make sure you practice what they taught on your own time too. Practice makes perfect and there's really no way around it.

I actually have not really practiced salsa partnerwork for almost a year and never had a salsa practice partner. For a year I have just social danced, watched some interesting new figures from videos and then danced new figures socially. New figures and challenge how to lead them has kept my interest on so that socials have not felt like a flashback fest. No surprise a lack of partner practice is so transparent in my dancing as here has typically been only one social per week.

But adding new figures is coming to an end anyway as it has become increasingly hard to find any useful new figures. I have already learned almost all the of Milton Cobo's, Brandon Carretero's, Nery Garcia's and Joel Dominugez's typical social moves which have any possibilities to succeed with our local follower base which is not spin oriented. Well. I have not copied Super Mario's moves yet, but maybe it is time to find some other form of entertainment for a while.

The reason why I have not looked for a salsa partner because I have such much experience of how much effort practicing takes. But I think just drilling couple of hours all my moves with a partner could clear up my dancing. After that some privates could help. It is pretty useless to take privates without a dance partner and a common figure base which shows clear flaws not just temporary slips. Too bad it seems pretty hard for me hard make such a commitment.

It seems that there is some routes to change a course, I got think what to do. Being just an ok local salsa dancer feels ok at the moment, but that video not just showed bad habits and sloppy legs, but also some potential to improve.

 

[premier]

Yeah, I understand committing to 2 fixed hours per week might be hard if you live very busy or irregular life. But if you can do it, it is hands down the best format for learning salsa But if not, privates are a good idea too. I know Mikko can dance as a follow too, so taking privates from him might work even without a partner.

 

[TwoLeftFeet]

If you are anything like me, you'll really benefit from spending a few hours daily listening to salsa music. If you want to be good at something you have to commit effort.... the more salsa you listen to the more you will discover a new level of enjoyment to your dancing as well as improving timing and musicality. Having more passion for the music will come across subconsciously in your dancing and others will pick up on it in a positive way.

 

[Lawndart]

Is it the rhythm or the tempo that you are referring to?

If it is rhythm ... What used to drive me crazy when I was first learning the understand Salsa was that I tended to try to extract the rhythm from some melody. That just does not work with this kind of music. At least not for me. I had to spend some time learning Clave and tumabao. The salsa beat machine worked for me.

There were some songs that just did not make sense to me. It turns out that these were rumba clave. Maybe you should post an example.

The discussion on Dancing On~2 with an On~1 partner thread was getting heavily out of topic. So I started a new thread. The discussion started with the term timing, but I think "salsa quality" is better term in my case.



But if salsa music follows a metronome, I feel it easy to dance to. But most old salsa music does not, rhythm varies all the time. If I compare salsa to dancesport latin, it is very different, in dancesport music has the same tempo, which follows a metronome and muscle memory generally keeps dance on the right track, only minor adjustments are needed. When I dance dancesport dances I can let subconscious mind to take care most of the rhythm.

Salsa is different. I think part of my salsa quality problem is that I have tended to count salsa music bit like a metronome instead of just grabbing a beat and sticking to it. Being too conscious about the rhythm as well as being distracted all the time when music tempo changes or there are some other distractions. Could the inconsistent timing be a symptom of the disease instead of being a cause?

There also probably are also some muscle memory based things which distracts my timing (namely ET2 beat 3-5 ospeeding when moving forward.). But I think that the base of my salsa quality trouble is not generally figure based or muscle memory based, it is distraction based, counting based, stagnant feet based and emotion based.

When I just connect with a dance partner emotionally, turn off the brains and move strongly everything works and distractions do not cause trouble. But when I worry about the music or the partner I get more anxious and mistakes or changes on music throw me off. I feel like helpless slave being severely dragged by beats instead of being the ruler of the rhythm.

How could I tame and enslave the salsa beast?

 

[petteri]

I made some clapping, footwork and imagination exercises accenting 1 and 2. The same salsa tune now had a different sound in my mind when I clapped at 1 and then I clapped at 2. Different sound when I thought a spot (1 or 5) or an arch (7-2 or 3-6). That brought me quite a funny feeling.

Could I somehow intensify the effect? Got to try.....