How to be a Gentler Lead? (& how to communicate that)

[Roo]

I have a friend with whom I will be talking this weekend about how to be gentler as he has hurt me and at least one other follow recently dancing. I used to love dancing with him, as he has a great understanding of the music, very creative/great musicality, good chemistry, etc. However, out of some combination of my following improving so as to desire a lighter lead & his lead actually becoming rougher, I have started avoiding dances with him.

The places where I have noticed it the most are leading double spins, & the dips actually create whiplash. I know for the doubles, he just need to do a better prep, and then back off for powering the spin. What exactly is it that can be improved about the dips? I don't know enough about how they're done on the lead's side to give good advice.

And btw, I have tried subtle ways of communicating this, & it has helped some, but not enough. And I know etiquette says that I shouldn't give feedback/teach socially, but when multiple people are starting to avoid him w/o telling him why.. I think it's unfair to keep him in the dark. And he's learned mostly through DVDs, so it makes sense that he hasn't gotten a lot of instructor or physical feedback.

Thoughts on the actual feedback about technique? Don't worry, I can phrase it nicely on my own.

 

[chr]

Re: How to be a Gentler Lead? (& how to communicate that

Thoughts on the actual feedback about technique? Don't worry, I can phrase it nicely on my own.

I remember my first time out dancing socially. My first dance was with an elder lady. She has great technique and I was no match for her anyways. Still she was politely smiling. Even during the dance I felt that something is awful wrong, but I thought, it is just my general inexperiencedness.

One hour later, when I was standing around, she came to me and asked me politely, whether she can give me a suggestion. Then she explained to me that I should never use my thumbs. It was truly embarassing, but I was very very grateful. The only thing that disturbed me was that she did not tell me immediately. After almost two years, I am still happy to aks her, when she is around.

My suggestion: just go and tell him politely but very seriously about the problem, don't try to make any jokes or even hints. Be very objective and technical. If he is reasonable, he will listen, if not then he is not worth dancing him anyways. I am completely sure that he is going to be much more upset if you would just refuse to dance with him without any explanations,

About dipping: it is not an essential part of dancing. You can just tell him, you don't want to dipped. E.g. After reading the salsa forums, I started not to dip (besides my wife). I can never know if someone has a medical condition, or simply not comfortable with that. The only exception is if the girl backleads it. (Which she should not, btw)

 

[hyh]

I think those who have been in this long enough know that giving advice is fraught with danger thus normally I would advice people against giving others advice.

However, we are talking about injuries past and potentially future. Also it sounds like you consider this person a friend and would prefer to keep dancing with him in the future.

The most important thing is you need to let him know that a certain of his moves/leads are causing you injury. You could tell him which moves hurt you. Be firm but gentle and be prepared for any negative reaction (visible or hidden).

I wonder if dramatizing an injury when it happens would be just as effective (as opposed to hiding it). I'm not talking about faking an injury here, but then again risking injury to send a message is a bit silly.

As for telling him that other girls have the problem - I'm not sure if that would help matters, and you might want to avoid speaking for other people (it might be piling on too much also). I'm not sure if giving advice on how to fix his lead either - fixing techniques is probably best left to professionals.

 

[SalsaManiac]

You could either

1) Let him know that he needs classes to fix his bad habits or

2) Ask someone whose lead you like to explain to him what they are doing

 

[bailarina]

lighter lead

I think you should say something -- but just don't phrase it in the manner of "your lead is too hard" (general)

Just tell him that you "prefer a lighter lead" (your own preference), and try and show him what you need e.g., try a dance w/only 1-2 fingers hold and maybe that would open his eyes that he does not hold on to you so tight...... and maybe this would raise a light-bulb to make him realize that he does not have to be so heavy in general.

I did this once, and it was tough, because the guy seemed to resent my telling him that & then it almost seemed that he brought out that resentment through even harsher dancing! Talk about anger management! :O

So, that's why I think you could bring it up in the terms of "your dancing's great but my personal preference is xxxxxxx" and leave it at that.

 

[Roo]

Yep, as far as strategy, I'm in complete agreement w/you all. Though knowing that some other follows were having a similar experience to me was helpful in feeling justified, I will be saying :

your dancing's great but my personal preference is xxxxxxx"

Let him extrapolate what other subtle signals he may be getting from others as to their preferences.

My question truly isn't as to whether I should or shouldn't talk w/him or how, it really is about how to help him change his technique.

SalsaManiac:

You could either

1) Let him know that he needs classes to fix his bad habits or

2) Ask someone whose lead you like to explain to him what they are doing

Is that an invitation to send him to you one way or another?

I do honestly forget the resource of all of my other lovely leads in the room though. That's a good idea/reminder.

I know quite a few people who are anti-classes, and whether he is or not, I like to have some ideas about what can be done, so that if a person I'm talking with doesn't pursue them, that I can still continue dancing (pain-free & enjoyably) w/him.

I know quite a few of you teach or just know good technique from leading for a while. Any suggestions on the dips? I think perhaps across the board it may be a timing issue, now that I think about it. Cuz it's not that he's gripping me too hard; I think it's just that all of the 'moves' are somewhat sudden.

And I totally hear what you're saying, chr, about skipping the dips. It's just he seems to like them a lot, and I like them just fine when they're done properly, so I'd rather help him figure out how he can do something that he obviously enjoys better.

 

[chr]

And I totally hear what you're saying, chr, about skipping the dips. It's just he seems to like them a lot, and I like them just fine when they're done properly, so I'd rather help him figure out how he can do something that he obviously enjoys better.

I think there is a trade-off: is the risk of an injury worth the enjoyment? That 's what you have to judge for yourself.


Logically I see the following main alternatives:

1) Don't dance with him
2) Tell him not to do dips/double spins
3) Tell him to look for a good instructor and stop doing d/ds until ha manages to learn them properly.
4) Learn to teach salsa and teach him.

It's all up to you

 

[Offbeat]

Re: How to be a Gentler Lead? (& how to communicate that

What exactly is it that can be improved about the dips? I don't know enough about how they're done on the lead's side to give good advice.

Why can't you simply make a start by telling him that you don't wanted to be dipped? That will solve at least one problem.

I never do dips during social dancing. I have given my reasons before but also that I don't have enough practice to pull them off smoothly and safely (in my mind) though I know how it works. It is easy to look at a move you haven't done and try it out. The dips are a lot different. There is a technique to it and also how the each partner holds their weight.

And btw, I have tried subtle ways of communicating this, & it has helped some, but not enough. And I know etiquette says that I shouldn't give feedback/teach socially

That etiquette is mainly during dancing socially. If it is a friend whom you know well, you can always pull him on a side and let him know. Nothing in etiquettes say that you can't do that. As a lead we do appreciate a sincere feedback. It is not the feedback but about how, where and when it is given

 

[Offbeat]

Yep, as far as strategy, I'm in complete agreement w/you all. Though knowing that some other follows were having a similar experience to me was helpful in feeling justified, I will be saying :

your dancing's great but my personal preference is xxxxxxx"

Let him extrapolate what other subtle signals he may be getting from others as to their preferences.

We men are seldom good at reading subtle signals Why can't you simply tell him that you are having a difficulty reading his lead for double spin and you get off balance when he leads you in to it. If you want to be more tactful you can add that you will like him to tell you if you are doing something wrong. Once he starts telling you that you are doing 'xyz' wrong then you can tell him that if he does 'abc' differently it will help you.

 

[MacMoto]

　Any suggestions on the dips? I think perhaps across the board it may be a timing issue, now that I think about it. Cuz it's not that he's gripping me too hard; I think it's just that all of the 'moves' are somewhat sudden.

And I totally hear what you're saying, chr, about skipping the dips. It's just he seems to like them a lot, and I like them just fine when they're done properly, so I'd rather help him figure out how he can do something that he obviously enjoys better.

It's difficult to see what the problem with his dips is without knowing how he leads dips, but if you feel that suddenness is the problem, maybe you could tell him that the last time he dipped you it gave you (or nearly gave you) a whiplash, and that you would prefer to be lowered more gently/slowly so you have time to respond/prepare yourself? It's better to be very specific about what you want him to try than just saying "you are too rough".

I've met a few leaders who tend to signal late and quick - i.e., the lead signals come a bit later than from other (better) leaders, and you are forced to respond more quickly to catch up. That can feel very rough even if he's not using a lot of force, and can cause pain e.g. if he makes you turn after you've already commited to walk straight forward so his lead pulls your arm back at an awkward angle. Personally I don't say anything to these guys simply becaue I don't know how to explain it - giving (unsolicited) advice is hard enough, and it's even harder when you are not sure what advice the guy really needs! I feel that it may be a lead habit some guys acquire without realising and that they neither know nor feel that their signals are late... :?

 

[cutesalsadoll]

I think it all depends on your attitude about it - I like being dipped but a lot of people hurt your back so I simply say "I can't do that, it hurts my back" put it on me so then their feelings aren't hurt. If I don't know the person well I never give advice dancing. I just smile and dance defensively - not allowing dips if I can tell they are going to bend my back in a way that hurts... otherwise I just bear with it and smile. They could be learning.

If I do know the person then I am just light hearted about it and laugh it off or just say it plainly. If you don't make a big deal about it he probably won't take it as an insult and actually be happy that you informed them. Most of us are looking to be better.

But sometimes this is still a sensitive issue and then I would still put it back on me "I'm having a hard time following your double spins... let's try that again..." Or "what classes are you taking right now?" and just encourage him to take classes and tell him who you like taking classes from in a more conversational way. This worked for me with one of my friends who is getting better all the time.

Otherwise, just be patient and see how you can compensate for it. But don't allow a lead to hurt you!!!

 

[mavo]

Pointing out mistakes is allways difficult . Direct way is often not very good as not too many people are able to stand critique (unless they are below your level or beginners). Try to build to it in conversation and be positive. It's like going through the mine field so good luck.

If a girl tells me that she doesn't like some pattern I just don't dance it with her ... no hard feelings on my side.

 

[sweavo]

Re: How to be a Gentler Lead? (& how to communicate that

... I know etiquette says that I shouldn't give feedback/teach socially

That etiquette is mainly during dancing socially. If it is a friend whom you know well, you can always pull him on a side and let him know. Nothing in etiquettes say that you can't do that. As a lead we do appreciate a sincere feedback. It is not the feedback but about how, where and when it is given

And indeed, etiquette is nice, but not getting injured is nicer!

 

[Salsamakossa]

I agree that if somebody risks getting hurt, then you have to say something. Better an ego is hurt, than somebody physically, especially somebody's back!!

I think it all depends on your attitude about it - I like being dipped but a lot of people hurt your back so I simply say "I can't do that, it hurts my back" put it on me so then their feelings aren't hurt. If I don't know the person well I never give advice dancing. I just smile and dance defensively - not allowing dips if I can tell they are going to bend my back in a way that hurts... otherwise I just bear with it and smile. They could be learning.
...

Otherwise, just be patient and see how you can compensate for it. But don't allow a lead to hurt you!!!

 

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

Re: How to be a Gentler Lead? (& how to communicate that

I have a friend with whom I will be talking this weekend about how to be gentler as he has hurt me and at least one other follow recently dancing...

I think you are absoutely right to address this. It really winds me up when leaders cause pain and injury, but if no-one tells them, how do they know? Good on ya Roo.
Speak up girls - do it nicely, but do it!
Dancing shouldn't have to be about pain.

...The places where I have noticed it the most are leading double spins, & the dips actually create whiplash. I know for the doubles, he just need to do a better prep, and then back off for powering the spin. What exactly is it that can be improved about the dips? ...

I don't ask a girl before dipping her and for me it's an integral part of salsa, though not necessarily every dance. I trust my own skills and believe that I can dip well without causing pain or discomfort, even if my partner has back issues, as when led well, the lady's back should be in no danger. As someone who teaches dips/drops technique I think this belief in my ability to dip properly is well founded, however there are others whose self belief is as strong as my own, but who aren't so skilled. Sometimes I cringe watching people, expecting the dancers to limp away from the scene, doubled up in pain. I don't really want to condone an environment where we're expected to ask first, though at the same time I acknowledge it is a real problem.

Specifically with regard to Roo, it's difficult to know what's going on without actually seeing it, but here's a few pointers, addressed to both leaders and followers - after all, it takes two...

For leaders;

<>The leader should always be (physically) in complete control, to the point where the follower feels totally secure. The control should be such that even a follower with bad technique should not be able to injure herself because the leader should control the move so it just doesn't happen, aborting or reducing the size of the dip/drop if necessary.

<>Leaders should never bite off more than they can chew in terms of being aware of the weight/technique of the girl they are dancing with, and never getting too close to the point of no return.

<>Nothing should be "sudden" or jerked. Fast is ok as long as it's flowing, but the flow should always prevail. if the follower aint flowing with you, then abort the dip before harm is done.

<>On more intensive dips and drops, protecting the follower from whiplash by supporting the back of her neck is preferable.

<> If a follower specifically asks not to be dipped, respect this. Don't go on a mission to show her how it'll actually be alright with you coz you're so skilled.

For Followers;

<>Never, EVER throw yourself at a leader expecting a dip, hoping he'll catch you. This way lies peril! The leader should ALWAYS be in control - if you've gotta throw yourself into it then he probably isn't leading it well and the chance of ending up in a heap on the floor with a back injury increases dramatically. Most of the time, if he's doing it right, you shouldn't really have much choice.

<> Support your own weight so far as you can, keeping your back straight from your head to your knees and on lower drops, pushing your knees forward so your feet come under your bottom, helping to balance and support your weight.

<> If you don't feel secure, tell him. It's your back he's messing with.

<> If ever your leader hurts you, make sure he knows about it (but please tell him nicely and respect his sensitive ego). if you don't tell him, he'll likely just go and hurt someone else and you'll be partly responsible.


Hope this helps.

 

[azzey]

In addition to what the Bear said...

Re: dips and whiplash:

I've seen and danced with girls who throw their head back dramatically. This can easily cause whiplash even when the leaders technique is good and the momentum of the dip is small.

The follower can do a lot to minimise the risk of whiplash by only moving her head in a very small movement ONCE your body has slowed to a stop.

The head should be the last part of the body to move to finish off the dip. If you move the head quickly you add to the momentum of the body and you get a SNAP effect when you suddenly stop moving.

Much of dip technique when done properly creates the illusion that the leader is doing it all when actually the follower has a large part to play. If the follower has great technique the leader has to use very little strength to dip her as the follower supports most of her own weight and has her hands placed in various safety positions on the leaders body.

This is not the same as saying that the leader has no responsibility, quite the opposite. Like anything in dance it is a partnership. Some of the leaders responsibilities:

- To decide when to dip and when to abort by looking out for dance hazards.
- Timing and leading the dip smoothly so that the follower is not pulled off balance.
- Maintaining a strong upright posture/frame for the follower to hold onto.
- Protecting her throughout the dip. e.g. placing the right hand at the top of her back where he can actually control her body rather than lower down (which is ineffective) and placing his left hand on her neck/back of her head to protect her from whiplash and possible collision with objects like other followers heads also being dipped.

Unfortunately most leaders fail on all counts and it's just pure luck that no-one gets hurt.

Every leader and follower should do dips/tricks workshops with teachers who specialise in these moves to learn the safety/technique.

You wouldn't do trapeze without taking some classes first would you?

 

[azzey]

Some stuff I've posted before about leader's responsibilities during dips:

http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4537&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=dips&start=15

Things he should be concentrating on when doing dips (or learning from teachers specialising in them) are:

1) Safe positioning - getting the girl into a balanced position where a dip is possible yet minimising the risk. e.g. get into an open space away from other people. Choose the direction of the dip carefully. There are simple twist dips that do not involve the girls upper body moving closer to floor. This is the kind of dip that should be taught first before going on to more advanced dips.

2) Safe preparation:
a) Move the girls arms and body into a supportive structure where her weight is over her knees and she has arms attached to your body that she can use to support herself (e.g. on your shoulder and behind your back). If done correctly she should be supporting most of her own weight and you are able to support the rest without even holding her with your arms!

b) Add additional support with your arms and in the case of dips that are almost horizontal, position your body (legs) in a sitting position like a coffee table so you can support her whole weight should she lose control of her balance. When learning to dip never dip AWAY from you (dip to the side instead) as you can support her more easily and keep your upper body vertical so you do not lose balance and topple on-top of her.

If cradling her head use your left hand but do not use it to support her body weight or you could damage her kneck. Use your arm on her body instead with your hand extending out to her head. Your right should be supporting the middle of her back.

c) Check the girl to see what her attitude is - is she likely to throw herself backwards with her full weight or is she supporting herself. If the former, do NOT dip her! Even the best technique will barely save someone who is suicidal in the name of fun. Also try and read her face to see if she is comfortable with this or scared.

3) Now you may be ready to begin the dip. Do a last check of all the above, begin the dip and keep checking the balance and other aspects throughout the dip. At the first sign of loss of balance or obstacles stop and bring her back up slowly.

Even during a high speed song when I might spin the girl 3.5 times while following her, then dip her horizontally I still go through this mental check list.

Start basic dips ultra slow-motion then with practice learn to do it to the music! Remember it's not necessarily how fancy the move or dip is if you hit the music exactly people will go WOW!

If your teacher does not teach these points and more do not learn dips from him. Get alternative instruction, preferably in a private lesson or small group class (max 4-5 leaders).

Hope this helps! Dips are wonderful when done well. Smile

p.s. To anyone else reading this, learning dips off the internet? Are you crazy? Seek proper instruction! Rolling Eyes

..and more discussion about dips in the dip thread:

http://www.salsaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3210&highlight=dips

 

[azzey]

Logically I see the following main alternatives:

1) Don't dance with him
2) Tell him not to do dips/double spins
3) Tell him to look for a good instructor and stop doing d/ds until ha manages to learn them properly.
4) Learn to teach salsa and teach him.

There's an alternative you've missed...

Suggest to him that you would like to take a dips/tricks workshop/private lesson with an instructor who specialises in them and you need a partner.
Have a quiet word with the instructor before and then let the instructor correct him. Same thing for spins.

Regarding any move that he does that hurts you, really the best thing to do is give him direct and immediate feedback by saying "OW". That way he can work out for himself the exact part that he hurt you and correct himself. No guy wants to have a girl saying OW more than once in a while.

 

[chr]

Suggest to him that you would like to take a dips/tricks workshop/private lesson with an instructor who specialises in them and you need a partner.
Have a quiet word with the instructor before and then let the instructor correct him. Same thing for spins.

This is a subcase of 3.

 

[chr]

Regarding any move that he does that hurts you, really the best thing to do is give him direct and immediate feedback by saying "OW". That way he can work out for himself the exact part that he hurt you and correct himself. No guy wants to have a girl saying OW more than once in a while.

If I put myself in her partner's place, I think I would be quite annoyed by any dramatization. Maybe he is better at it, but I am very poor reading subtle hints. My conclusion would be that this girl wants to drive me away. I would just stop asking her. I am much more comfortable with simple technical statements, like "You don't prep before double spins, that hurts a bit." rather than hard to read "ouch"-es.

Yesterday I was in a club and at the end I became a bit (?) too drunk, but I had the occasion to dance with an execellent follow. She was superb and smiling all the time. In the middle of the song she just simply asked to dance closer, since my moves became a bit too big. I was not hurt the least and her critics really improved the dance a lot. A simple remark like that is 100X more efficient than trying to provide nonverbal clues. They would have made me thinking and unsure instead of focusing on the real problem.