How the Cubans Dance Casino

[khabibul35]

I've been to Cuba just once, but being there changed my perspective on dancing casino a lot. I've realized that a lot of the moves taught in Casino as standards are not standard in Cuba (or at least not in Havana) - for example, el uno. In the end, I didn't throw these out from my repertoire in order to dance just like a Cuban but I became conscious of the fact that casino that was exported from Cuba has morphed a lot.

Those of you who have been to Cuba, and regularly dance casino, in what ways is casino danced differently in Cuban vs in your area? Also, how do you feel about the differences?

General:

• I noticed a lot of Cubans dancing on1, on3, on5, and on7 and certain people would seem to switch several times per song. The instructors seemed to be the only ones who really insisted on dancing on1.

• This one is kind of obvious, but body movement is way more emphasized.

• Dancing with a stranger seemed to be uncommon.

• If you're there with a boyfriend/girlfriend, you seemed to have to ask for permission to dance with someone else.

Following:

• Follows seem to never stand still. If you disconnect, she's gone. The only time follows seem to not move around is when the leader is directly in front or behind you.

Leading:

• Leaders seemed to be not shy in telling follows that they're doing something wrong. It seemed like most leaders felt like they were qualified to be instructors.

• This is second hand information, but my female friends said that men were really forceful - not rough, but forceful - in their lead. That is, they'd be moved with a lot more force than what they were used to in our home scene and that the moves were not at all subtle, although in our home scene the soft approach was seen as more skillful.

In the end, I feel like I appreciated the differences but that I haven't changed my approach when I'm outside of Cuba. I still prefer to maintain the 1 when dancing and to lead more softly. It's not pure Cuban, but no one here dances like that here except the Cubans themselves (and they don't teach it that way either). Thoughts?

 

[Sabrosura]

I've been to Cuba just once, but being there changed my perspective on dancing casino a lot. I've realized that a lot of the moves taught in Casino as standards are not standard in Cuba (or at least not in Havana) - for example, el uno. In the end, I didn't throw these out from my repertoire in order to dance just like a Cuban but I became conscious of the fact that casino that was exported from Cuba has morphed a lot.

Those of you who have been to Cuba, and regularly dance casino, in what ways is casino danced differently in Cuban vs in your area? Also, how do you feel about the differences?

General:
I noticed a lot of Cubans dancing on1, on3, on5, and on7 and certain people would seem to switch several times per song. The instructors seemed to be the only ones who really insisted on dancing on1.

You forgot on2!

I kind of got the impression that Cubans think more in 4-counts (like musicians do) than 8-counts. I get the impression that in casino it seems like there is not as much need for the fixed 8-count we use linear salsa, that it is more flexible in this regard?

Dancing with a stranger seemed to be uncommon.

I assume you are referring to Cubans dancing with strange Cubans, not to foreigners? Yeah I would say Cuba is similar to other Latin countries in this regard. However at rumba events it seemed common for people to invite an unkown partner to dance.

If you're there with a boyfriend/girlfriend, you seemed to have to ask for permission to dance with someone else.

Yeah, again this is similar to other Latin countries, so not really a surprise. Reminds me of a funny story, one night I was at La Gruta in Havana with my (Cuban) dance partner and I of course was dancing with everyone. We were seated next to a (Cuban) couple who were only dancing with each other and at one point the woman, who was clearly very puzzled by my behavior, actually started telling me I should really stop dancing with other people and just dance with my partner. My partner also told me how she had been asking him why he was "letting me" dance with other guys.

Leading:
Leaders seemed to be not shy in telling follows that they're doing something wrong. It seemed like most leaders felt like they were qualified to be instructors.

Lol, I think maybe this happens more when Cuban guys are dancing with foreign women, because Cuban women don't seem to have much patience for this kind of behavior

Except for a couple pro guys who were teaching me son and changui in Santiago, no one tried to correct or teach me in the three months I spent dancing in Cuba. There was this one guy in Guantanamo who tried to tell me something I was doing (or not doing) was the reason his move wasn't working, and he got a mouthful from me (He was also trying to seduce me so that definitely didn't help his cause )

This is second hand information, but my female friends said that men were really forceful - not rough, but forceful - in their lead. That is, they'd be moved with a lot more force than what they were used to in our home scene and that the moves were not at all subtle, although in our home scene the soft approach was seen as more skillful.

I strongly disagree with this, it was not my experience at all (and I would say I have a lower tolerance than average for rough forceful leading). I actually went to Cuba thinking casino leads are all rough and this belief was completely disproven in Cuba, I found most of the guys I danced with to not be forceful at all. Having danced both in Havana and other places, I did note that Havana leads tended to be a little more forceful and to do more pretzel moves than guys in other towns.

Also, the very best dancer I danced with in Havana, in terms of overall dance skill, was an extremely light lead, as light as my favorite NY leads in fact.

 

[khabibul35]

Thanks for that, especially for the comments on how the leaders dance/behave. I didn't get to dance with any Cuban men so it was mostly surmised from watching or from hearing my friends talk about their experiences.

One thing about the on2 dancing. I left it out because dancing contra-tiempto is usually a pretty conscious decision that one makes. When you hear son, you more likely than not decide to switch to on2. However, the on1, on3, on5, on7 just seemed to be the default for some every day dancers and they didn't seem particularly focused on finding the 1 and staying on it. In fact, they just didn't care at all. Again, outside of properly trained instructors who were definitely aware of it and kept the count consistent.

PS - La Gruta was not as packed as the others when we went but it was my favorite of all the clubs in Havana in the end because it seemed like people there were more relaxed. But then again, if you're somewhere only a few times, it's hard to generalize.

 

[Sabrosura]

Leading:

• Leaders seemed to be not shy in telling follows that they're doing something wrong. It seemed like most leaders felt like they were qualified to be instructors.

One other comment on this, and it especially applies to Havana dance spots (such as 1830, La Gruta, etc): unfortunately these are not really places where "normal" Cubans go to dance so they are not really representative of Cuban casino dancing. Few Cubans can afford to pay a few CUC for the entrance several times a week. The Cubans who go there are mostly guys and girls looking to find a foreigner they can attach themselves to for a night (or several) and get some financial benefits in exchange for their companionship and for serving as their dance partner. This situation was much more prevalent in Havana than in other towns, but it could be seen in most dance places that attract a lot of tourists.

Further, in Havana there are a lot of dance schools that cater to foreigners and their instructors (mostly guys) tend to be the ones that are the best dancers at Havana dance venues. Again, for this reason they are not representative of "normal" Cuban casino dancing. A lot of them try to out-do and compete with each other and show they are the best, etc. This is one reason why I think there tend to be a lot more pretzel moves on Havana dance floors than other places. Showing you are a good dancer of course also means you get more attention from foreign women, which is why the many jinetero guys who go to these dance spots also tend to try to show off their dancing (hence the forceful dancing with lots of pretzels and trying to "teach" on the dance floor). Again, not a representative population.

 

[bailar y tocar]

I will comment on the moves and calls in rueda casino.
There are the "international rueda calls" that were standardized in Miami.
And there is everything else.

If you dance cuban salsa or rueda in the US, 50% or more of the groups that dance Cuban will use Miami standard moves and names.

If you dance in most cities in Europe only the basic moves will be the same and even then some might have different names.

Its not a big deal though if you are a visual person. Do as they do not do as they say (besides one can't hear the calls in a loud club anyway).

If you are an aural person, good luck.

 

[DJ Yuca]

It seems when I dance with a casinera (non-Cuban), before or as soon as we begin dancing they shout 'I'm Cuban!' at me. In my limited experience of dancing with Cubanas this never happens.

(Ironically if it were the other way around it would at least be accurate.)

 

[Atomico]

It seems when I dance with a casinera (non-Cuban), before or as soon as we begin dancing they shout 'I'm Cuban!' at me. In my limited experience of dancing with Cubanas this never happens.

(Ironically if it were the other way around it would at least be accurate.)

 

[timberamayor]

It seems when I dance with a casinera (non-Cuban), before or as soon as we begin dancing they shout 'I'm Cuban!' at me. In my limited experience of dancing with Cubanas this never happens.

(Ironically if it were the other way around it would at least be accurate.)

How funny I might warn a linear dancer at the time he asks me to dance that I'm a casino dancer so he would be prepared for me to have problems with his lead, but I certaibly wouldn't say "I'm Cuban".

 

[khabibul35]

It seems when I dance with a casinera (non-Cuban), before or as soon as we begin dancing they shout 'I'm Cuban!' at me.)

People might get snarky if you don't meet their expectations but this seems over the top. Maybe English is not their native language?

If you're a native speaker, the only meaning this can have is that you're of Cuban descent or have Cuban citizenship. I can't imagine a native speaker saying that unless one of those two is true.

 

[DJ Yuca]

It's always native English followers who shout that at me. I usually respond with 'I'm English', at which point they laugh then explain that they're not Cuban at all, but what they mean is that they only dance 'Cuban style'/don't dance 'crossbody'.

That may well be due to previous bad experiences from slot style leads trying to make them do moves they are unfamiliar with but I think it also ties into: Are You Too Advanced For Your Own Good?. The perception of casino for most dancers outside Cuba is that it involves doing as many and as complicated moves as possible. Therefore a lead needs to know immediately that his follower requires casino moves, as like it or not she is about to do her thing. (Regardless of what the lead and/or song is doing.)

 

[timberamayor]

It's always native English followers who shout that at me. I usually respond with 'I'm English', at which point they laugh then explain that they're not Cuban at all, but what they mean is that they only dance 'Cuban style'/don't dance 'crossbody'.

That may well be due to previous bad experiences from slot style leads trying to make them do moves they are unfamiliar with but I think it also ties into: Are You Too Advanced For Your Own Good?. The perception of casino for most dancers outside Cuba is that it involves doing as many and as complicated moves as possible. Therefore a lead needs to know immediately that his follower requires casino moves, as like it or not she is about to do her thing. (Regardless of what the lead and/or song is doing.)

I can't speak to your scene, but my reason for warning linear dancers that I'm a casino dancer is that many of the guys I've danced with have tried to force me into spins and other moves that I just don't know how to do. They just dance with me as if I'm a linear style dancer. So if they know ahead of time they can at last be ready for a bad dance or even say "OK I'll go dace with someone else.". I've had some linear dancers who go very gently and do not try to force things when they know I don't dance that style. But I've had other dances that were very unsatisfactory for me and I'm sure for the guy. So I'd rather skip that dance than try to be forced into moves that aren't working and the leader keeps trying it over and over thinking it will suddenly work, etc. Probably the same for a linear dancer who dances with a casino lead who thinks he can force the pretzels to work.

 

[bailar y tocar]

I can't speak to your scene, but my reason for warning linear dancers that I'm a casino dancer is that many of the guys I've danced with have tried to force me into spins and other moves that I just don't know how to do. They just dance with me as if I'm a linear style dancer. So if they know ahead of time they can at last be ready for a bad dance or even say "OK I'll go dace with someone else.". I've had some linear dancers who go very gently and do not try to force things when they know I don't dance that style. But I've had other dances that were very unsatisfactory for me and I'm sure for the guy. So I'd rather skip that dance than try to be forced into moves that aren't working and the leader keeps trying it over and over thinking it will suddenly work, etc. Probably the same for a linear dancer who dances with a casino lead who thinks he can force the pretzels to work.

I am in the opposite predicament as a casineiro a primero but I can dance linear.
When I get lucky my partner is a casineira or can follow casino well and if the music is timba, its happiness all around.
If none of the above, it is really the leaders responsibility to adjust. I have to try to remember to hold the 4s and 8s and move more slotty. I put in lots and lots of spins though, which I really like to do, so we all end up happy after all (if she can maintain balance while spinning).

PS. Caleños are really impressed with casino dancing especially with lots of Afro-Cuban feel. They just can't get the idea that gringos can move their body. They truly enjoy it as an added free show to entertain them and start cheering.

PS2. As there are more timba bands from Cuba coming to Cali, there will be many more displays

 

[Sabrosura]

This discussion reminds me of when I first went to Cuba and, as a hardcore on2 dancer (and timba hater ) had very minimal casino experience, i.e. no lessons, just what I'd picked up from the very few encounters with casino dancers I had had up until then. But I of course wanted to fully immerse myself in the Cuban casino dance experience (including all the pretzels ). So I followed three rules I had picked up from various sources (incliding SF's @tocatimba ):
1. Keep walking in a circle unless the lead leads something different
2. Never step backwards, only forward or in place (no back break steps)
3. Stay as relaxed (especially the upper body) and grounded as possible to allow the pretzel stuff to work

It was quite hard to get used to these rules, especially #1 and #2, but after a few nights of dancing nothing but casino I got used to it and within another week or two people (both tourists and Cubans) were often mistaking me for a Cuban on the dance floor

That said, the walking in circles the entire time still feels very unnatural I'm good for 30 seconds or so at a time but if it gets longer than that, without a break of dancing in place or some other non-circle move, I find myself losing the circle

 

[DJ Yuca]

I can't speak to your scene, but my reason for warning linear dancers that I'm a casino dancer is that many of the guys I've danced with have tried to force me into spins and other moves that I just don't know how to do. They just dance with me as if I'm a linear style dancer. So if they know ahead of time they can at last be ready for a bad dance or even say "OK I'll go dace with someone else.". I've had some linear dancers who go very gently and do not try to force things when they know I don't dance that style. But I've had other dances that were very unsatisfactory for me and I'm sure for the guy. So I'd rather skip that dance than try to be forced into moves that aren't working and the leader keeps trying it over and over thinking it will suddenly work, etc. Probably the same for a linear dancer who dances with a casino lead who thinks he can force the pretzels to work.

I'm sure such experiences do happen a lot. Incidentally I personally believe that it is a lot harder for a casinera to adjust to a linear lead than it is for a linear follow to adjust to a casino lead. (Or maybe casino is so common in Europe that linear followers soon get at least some casino experience.)

However my point remains: a lot of casineras I dance with (usually those who shout 'I'm Cuban!' at me) seem to want to do some sort of headless chicken flavour (for want of a better description), albeit the casino version, from the beginning to the end of the dance, and they expect me to facilitate that. As most/all classic salsa tunes start off pretty low key that is really at odds with the music. Plus when the girl starts going mental it is not responding to my lead at all. Throw in the fact that for some salsa tracks I have to dance on2 (contratiempo), which the casino lessons crowd often cannot deal with as again it inhibits their headless chicken tendencies, and the end result is that I often have a more successful dance with an absolute beginner or an untrained dancer than I do with someone who thinks they´re hot stuff.

Surely one of the fundamentals of any partner dance is that, whilst both partners express themselves, the follower also follows the lead.

Disclaimer: lots of casineras don't do any of the above and are wonderful, and anyway I'm not much of a dancer. But still - the above relates to the OP and is my experience.

 

[bailar y tocar]

. Incidentally I personally believe that it is a lot harder for a casinera to adjust to a linear lead than it is for a linear follow to adjust to a casino lead.

IME, it depends.
Linear follows who only dance with schooled linear leads have the hardest time adjusting to other leads. Everyone else has probably experienced dancing with leads who never took a class and that means they have learned to adjust.

 

[Live2dance]

I think the issue is sometimes that people don't understand the technique but try to imitate an image. Just because one dances in a line or more circular does not mean they dance the style correctly. So you can find both linear and casino/cuban style dancers that are unable to cope with the other style and some more technical dancers that have no problem adapting, some who like mixing and some who wish to keep things seperate.