How do you guys do it?

Went out the other night with @Hexlibris and had tons of fun :D This man knows his venue :cool: Also met more advanced follows than I had ever met in any single night out dancing @@ Funny, I'm actually having a lot more fun with advanced follows recently. I've realized that the key is not to "lead" but rather "initiate" a move. You initiate a movement and let the lady does her own things, since she knows her stuff much better than you do yours :D And while she's busy looking all pretty and charming and stuff, just help her continue and finish it instead of thinking about what you are going to do. Maybe you can also carry her purse :D And since her timing is much better, I could easily read her movements to latch onto the 1 and 5 that always evade my ears.

This charming vixen I was dancing with, I was doing an enchufla doblé but at the end I felt like she was still moving so I kept my arm up in the air. She just used that freedom to do some real cool spins and somehow ended up next to me, which immediately prompted me to do a dilequeno. I forgot to present the left hand so she used that space to do some ballet-style spins with her arm up in the air like a night swan. My jaws was dropping to the floor and I was like "Oh man I gotta help her!" so at the half-spin I pushed her a bit with my right hand, and it ended up being the most amazing triple spin I've seen in my life :)

Later to finish up a sombreo I lift her hands over her head to comb her hair. She ran those cute little fingers through her blonde locks as smooth as glittering morning dew sliding down an autumn leaf :eek: And then since we're in open position she had all the freedom for styling, her arms and body waving through the air like a butterfly riding the sunlight. For a little eternity there I basically had my private Broadway dance show, and I didn't have to do anything, not to mention that I messed up a bit but she turned all that into impeccable moves :inlove" And she seemed really happy. I must look stupid with all my "wows" and my eyes wide open :D

I need to work on developing a clear but not restricting lead, since this is certainly the way to go with these Salsa princesses :DOf course I run the risk of adopting a weak lead, which for beginner follows could be a problem since they need more guidance through a move. Tonight for Valentine night I decided to go easy on these beautiful Spanish ladies, so my lead was pretty soft and at some points they weren't sure what I wanted to do. Suggestions anyone?
 
I am still a bit of a noob, but here is what I have been observing in my own journey...

If you lead too much with your arms or shoulders it seems more rough and restricting.

Understated leads that come straight from the core (leading with your ribcage) on the other hand seems to send a real clear and direct message without caging her in. (Obviously you are still using your arms to lead, but the movment is coming from your core, the joints in your arms are not flexing or extending.)

I realized that I need to stop just thinking about me doing the move right and just dragging her along with me, but I need to remember that there are infact two people dancing, and I need to watch what she is doing as well.
 
Dalaran1991 said:
Welcome! Lol can't call yourself dancer until you got your first salsa horror experience :D Wait till the enchanting smiles on those ladies turn into disgusted grimace because you suck. We have all been there, and it's a learning experience.

I think it helps to accept the fact that you WILL suck and you WILL mess up, and the ladies will be disappointed and that's all fine because you are a beginner. It's also more important to recognize that you will not suck forever, in fact you will improve tremendously if you start asking ladies to dance. But you WILL suck forever if you don't nut up and ask for a dance. Class dance is nothing compared to a social dance. It's like going from bootcamp to war world III.

Think about it this way. A man who has no courage to ask a girl to dance, does he deserve to dance with her? Does he deserve the pleasing smile on her face? Those salseros who are up there doing all the crazy spinnings, they were noobs like us once (yeah, it's hard to believe when you look at them styling their complicados :D) but they blaze through beginner's hell on soaring wings of fire and balls of adamantium to get there ;)
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thanks guys for the advise, will definitely take it in.

cant wait for class today and socials this coming week, its the Hong Kong Salsa Festival :D
 
Dalaran1991 said:
I need to work on developing a clear but not restricting lead, since this is certainly the way to go with these Salsa princesses :DOf course I run the risk of adopting a weak lead, which for beginner follows could be a problem since they need more guidance through a move. Tonight for Valentine night I decided to go easy on these beautiful Spanish ladies, so my lead was pretty soft and at some points they weren't sure what I wanted to do. Suggestions anyone?
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I have to say I love pretty much every one of your posts haha. So great with words. Anyway on to your issue. This is where a martial arts background really comes in handy. As I'm sure you know, it's not about pure force, it's about the right amount of energy in the right spots. Use your understanding of body alignment to accomplish the most movement with the least effort. When leading a turn, for instance, you know that the shoulder only goes so far before the rest of the body goes with it. Gently draw a circle with your hand until she gets to that point, and then there's no more effort required on your part (unless you're leading multiple spins, in which case you simply draw a circle to that point again).

When you start thinking about it in terms of maximum effect/minimum effort you'll start to find little ways you can be perfectly clear through applying precise energy in the right spots and then immediately dissipating it. I know you're not from a striking art, but when you strike you want to relax up to the point of contact, apply energy at the point of contact, then relax as you pull back. It's the same concept with leading clearly and lightly. You'll be clear because you're applying the energy clearly in the moment, but you'll feel light because you're not continuing to apply energy when you don't need to. I use this on everyone from beginners on up and I rarely have problems (the "moment" generally lasts longer for beginners because of lower reaction speed, but I always just apply the energy longer instead of applying more energy). When leaders are too light, they aren't applying enough momentary energy in their signals and/or aren't applying the energy in the correct spots. When leaders are too forceful, they're generally applying too much energy all over the place and/or not dissipating it fast enough.
 
londongirl said:
Vomit. Not great with words. Great with using words that diminish women to nothing but "princesses", "vixens", "cute" etc. I don't care what you think in your head but do you think you could stop the sleazy and creepy objectification of women in public posts?
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cant figure out , to whom this is directed ?
 
londongirl said:
The author of the post using these terms, at the top of the page, dalaran1991. He's done a few posts like this and it's really uncomfortable reading them.

If you don't understand, spend an hour or two reading the posts on here http://everydaysexism.com and watch this http://www.theweek.co.uk/film/57317/oppressed-majority-how-does-it-feel-be-woman-video
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Thanks.......

I really dont need to read the articles as ( I hope ) I do not use perjorative lables.

In matter of fact, there are other words that equally bother me, primarily the cavalier way the word " hero " is attached to sports figures for one e.g.. I see nothing heroic, about kicking/catching a football.

One may idolise, and worship whomever one wishes, but heroes, are normally found on battlefields, where Real death is ever present ( firemen also included ) .
 
londongirl said:
Vomit. Not great with words. Great with using words that diminish women to nothing but "princesses", "vixens", "cute" etc. I don't care what you think in your head but do you think you could stop the sleazy and creepy objectification of women in public posts?
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I’m confused, is calling someone a "princess" or "cute" an insult? o_O
Especially in the context of Dalaran’s posts where it’s clearly a huge compliment.
 
GForce85 said:
I have to say I love pretty much every one of your posts haha. So great with words. Anyway on to your issue. This is where a martial arts background really comes in handy. As I'm sure you know, it's not about pure force, it's about the right amount of energy in the right spots. Use your understanding of body alignment to accomplish the most movement with the least effort. When leading a turn, for instance, you know that the shoulder only goes so far before the rest of the body goes with it. Gently draw a circle with your hand until she gets to that point, and then there's no more effort required on your part (unless you're leading multiple spins, in which case you simply draw a circle to that point again).

When you start thinking about it in terms of maximum effect/minimum effort you'll start to find little ways you can be perfectly clear through applying precise energy in the right spots and then immediately dissipating it. I know you're not from a striking art, but when you strike you want to relax up to the point of contact, apply energy at the point of contact, then relax as you pull back. It's the same concept with leading clearly and lightly. You'll be clear because you're applying the energy clearly in the moment, but you'll feel light because you're not continuing to apply energy when you don't need to. I use this on everyone from beginners on up and I rarely have problems (the "moment" generally lasts longer for beginners because of lower reaction speed, but I always just apply the energy longer instead of applying more energy). When leaders are too light, they aren't applying enough momentary energy in their signals and/or aren't applying the energy in the correct spots. When leaders are too forceful, they're generally applying too much energy all over the place and/or not dissipating it fast enough.
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Man this is so nicely put! I always feel there's a connection somewhere between my Aikido movements and Salsa, but I just can't put a finger on it until you spell it out to me! This maximum effect/minimum effort is gonna be my new motto in life. Now applying it properly will require some conscious effort at first, but I'll see what I can do :)

Fractal said:
I’m confused, is calling someone a "princess" or "cute" an insult? o_O
Especially in the context of Dalaran’s posts where it’s clearly a huge compliment.
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This is why chivalry is dead :D:D:D

Some people will always be offended by something no matter what you do. Anyway I know I love and respect women and the women in my life, including the dance partners I would like to keep, are fine with the way I express my appreciation for them, so I don't feel the need to response to these kinds of critique. Let's get back to dancing here ladies and gents.
 
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Dalaran1991 said:
This is why chivalry is dead :D:D:D

Some people will always be offended by something no matter what you do. Anyway I know I love and respect women and the women in my life, including the dance partners I would like to keep, are fine with the way I express my appreciation for them, so I don't feel the need to response to these kinds of critique. Let's get back to dancing here ladies and gents.
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Silly little girl me, of course you are right, thank you for putting me back in my place! Let me giggle abashed in the corner, here twirling my hair, whilst you decide what and how we talk on these forums; because you are a man, and of course you cannot be wrong, and so naturally you get to understand and decide how I should feel after reading your posts! :rolleyes: Did you even watch the video or read any of everyday sexism? The problem is you don't see why it's offensive and demeaning, because it is everywhere you think it is normal and ok, and as a male you don't experience it or experience the long term consequences.
 
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GForce85 said:
When you start thinking about it in terms of maximum effect/minimum effort you'll start to find little ways you can be perfectly clear through applying precise energy in the right spots and then immediately dissipating it. I know you're not from a striking art, but when you strike you want to relax up to the point of contact, apply energy at the point of contact, then relax as you pull back. It's the same concept with leading clearly and lightly. You'll be clear because you're applying the energy clearly in the moment, but you'll feel light because you're not continuing to apply energy when you don't need to. I use this on everyone from beginners on up and I rarely have problems (the "moment" generally lasts longer for beginners because of lower reaction speed, but I always just apply the energy longer instead of applying more energy). When leaders are too light, they aren't applying enough momentary energy in their signals and/or aren't applying the energy in the correct spots. When leaders are too forceful, they're generally applying too much energy all over the place and/or not dissipating it fast enough.
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The first time I read that I perceived "point of contact" as a particular point on your body and her body, and I got all confused, but the I re-read that again and I think you mean "point of contact" as in a particular point in time, like the exact spot in the rythem that you want to lead the move.

So for experienced dancers that moment is short, and for new dancers that moment is a bit longer, but as soon as you feel that she has got that message, you immediately give her back her freedom.

I think that helps me better understand something I was trying to understand the other day.

I was working with a teacher I had never worked with before, and I was asking him about how he is so successful with leads, so he was showing me how he does it. I was dancing with him (and I am a hella lowsey follower) and what I noticed is that he had such subtle movement in his lead, but they were powerful and clear.

I was all just small movements from his core, like he just moved his rib cage and it was a super crisp and clear lead.

But I did get this feeling of only using that stronger connection when he needed to send a message across, and not the whole time, most of the time his lead was light and felt free.

hmmmm.... it is always interesting trying to steal lead techniques from guys much more skilled than me.
 
RobotLion said:
hmmmm.... it is always interesting trying to steal lead techniques from guys much more skilled than me.
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Don't you have to pay them for copy-right laws? :D

Have you tried recording your dance as well as your teacher's? It's one of the most useful things to help you experience your own dancing as an outsider.
 
RobotLion said:
So for experienced dancers that moment is short, and for new dancers that moment is a bit longer, but as soon as you feel that she has got that message, you immediately give her back her freedom.
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Exactly this. When you are signaling you are "asking" or "suggesting" that the follower do something. If you were to verbally ask someone to stand a little to the left, you wouldn't then have to physically move them to the left. Assuming they understood what you asked, they can do it on their own. It's the same thing in dancing only the communication is non-verbal.
 
Dalaran1991 said:
I need to work on developing a clear but not restricting lead, since this is certainly the way to go with these Salsa princesses :DOf course I run the risk of adopting a weak lead, which for beginner follows could be a problem since they need more guidance through a move. Tonight for Valentine night I decided to go easy on these beautiful Spanish ladies, so my lead was pretty soft and at some points they weren't sure what I wanted to do. Suggestions anyone?
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To continue the martial arts analogy, have you done push hands/sticky hands? Keep connected through the core, remain in light contact throughout the movement, keep the energy focused and moving... even when dissipating, keep guiding so that your partner gets to your goal.


We are always moving one way or the other in Casino, or rotating around each other. So it's a kind of a continuous exchange of energy and exchange of position.


If you disconnect completely, lack direction, hesitate, lack intent, let the energy or motion go cold, then she may be confused momentarily and starting again will be more difficult.

Instead, continue the movement like the girl did in your example and redirect her into new directions or movements.

Another analogy with pushing hands is that you need to keep the same rhythm as each other so that you don't disconnect from your partner.
 
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