How do you dance with absolute beginners or erratic partners

[Flex]

OK that is fine for beginners but what about a lady who has been going to a cross body class for about 12 months at least, who when you get her up for a dance goes side to side wandering off line willy nilly suddenly spinning herself back and forth in a ceroc style., and when you try to lead the simplest of moves tries to turn the most difficult and opposite way you are quite clearly leading . infact it would be crazy to turn the direction she does . and footwork . random steps per beat in any direction. .
so do you say anything in an encourageing but in a constructive manner , fear of upseting her . say nothing . and see her not get a dance , just leave it to her teacher to spot it and teach her to do it correctly.
I quite like this lady , as a person , and she is enthusiastic , . I would just like to say I am not a teacher and it has nothing really to do with me , and don't want to diss her teachers. dancing with her is not easy . in the nicest possible way.

Well, if she has done classes for a year, and one cannot assume her teacher is such a lemon that s/he did not notice, then from what you describe I fear this is one person who is uncoordinated, has no idea, will never respond, and will never make it on the dancefloor. Sad, but there is a small percentage like this. It's even sadder if they desperately want to dance. No solution - just hold her as close and firm as you can (if you like her) and maybe regard it as a fun challenge to see what she does when loosed, and whether you can collect her between moves.... come to think of it, that's not a bad exercise, at that!

 

[salsashoes]

thanks flex.
thing is , in the class she is not too bad , you could say she might be better after a year . but. ...
To any teachers out there or any one . in a group class how much (if any ), time is spent on teaching how to lead and how to follow / read the lead, signals etc and the theory behind why we are doing this . not just moves but how to dance them for real with a stranger.

 

[Flex]

thanks flex.
thing is , in the class she is not too bad , you could say she might be better after a year . but. ...
To any teachers out there or any one . in a group class how much (if any ), time is spent on teaching how to lead and how to follow / read the lead, signals etc and the theory behind why we are doing this . not just moves but how to dance them for real with a stranger.

Afraid this is quite common.. Here is an old but good (if not always correctly spelled) piece from Alastair Sadler:
salsarapido.ndirect.co.uk/sifindex.htm#anticipation

But I fear that in the case of the lady you describe, her class-mates will nevertheless have learned far moreover a year than she appears to have done.

 

[JonesNikka]

OK that is fine for beginners but what about a lady who has been going to a cross body class for about 12 months at least, who when you get her up for a dance goes side to side wandering off line willy nilly suddenly spinning herself back and forth in a ceroc style., and when you try to lead the simplest of moves tries to turn the most difficult and opposite way you are quite clearly leading . infact it would be crazy to turn the direction she does . and footwork . random steps per beat in any direction. .
so do you say anything in an encourageing but in a constructive manner , fear of upseting her . say nothing . and see her not get a dance , just leave it to her teacher to spot it and teach her to do it correctly.
I quite like this lady , as a person , and she is enthusiastic , . I would just like to say I am not a teacher and it has nothing really to do with me , and don't want to diss her teachers. dancing with her is not easy . in the nicest possible way.

Well, if she has done classes for a year, and one cannot assume her teacher is such a lemon that s/he did not notice, then from what you describe I fear this is one person who is uncoordinated, has no idea, will never respond, and will never make it on the dancefloor. Sad, but there is a small percentage like this. It's even sadder if they desperately want to dance. No solution - just hold her as close and firm as you can (if you like her) and maybe regard it as a fun challenge to see what she does when loosed, and whether you can collect her between moves.... come to think of it, that's not a bad exercise, at that!

Sadly there really are out there teachers who will not notice this because they only teach choreographies in their classes. So, of course every follower knows what to do and only when dancing and improvising with strangers will it become apparent that dancers like the woman in question do not know how to move on their own, but can only follow if the leader moves them in the right direction.
The solution, and there is one, is for her to learn how to do her own steps aiming to match the leader instead of expecting him to put her in the right place or push her in the right direction. Everytime a leader forces her to do the step in the right way it only reinforces in her head the idea that she can do whatever she wants. If she were to try her own moves and become aware that she is really going in the wrong direction, she herself would correct her footwork, rhythm, turns and displacemnts.

 

[chr]

With beginners no traditional salsa basic - "just move your feet in time to the music" is my mantra.

I think that can be a great to step on your partner's feet.

 

[salsashoes]

hi
I would just like to say I am not picking on this lady , I just used her as an example . and will help any one , if i can , also i don't want to do a salsa lesson during a social dance ,. if someone asks sorry I did not get that can we do it again then sure I will go through i again . usually if a move goes hopelessly wrong I dont do it again that dance .
i have heard tales of guys doing it 4 or 5 times till the ladies are forced to do it .
hi Jones ,Nikka did you mean that I should just go with her flow and let it all go off beat and wandering around aimlessly she might think I have gone insane , but it might by fun.
I think the solution might be to say in passing that "hey private lessons are great I've had them . well worth it . " kinda thing .

 

[Flex]

hi Jones ,Nikka did you mean that I should just go with her flow and let it all go off beat and wandering around aimlessly she might think I have gone insane , but it might by fun.
I think the solution might be to say in passing that "hey private lessons are great I've had them . well worth it . " kinda thing .

Your suggested reply is optimal - if acted upon.

Thing is, while there are many who learn/are taught choreographed routines rather than leading and following, there is also a small percentage who are arrhythmic and uncoordinated. From your descriptions, this lady sounded very much like one of those and there is little you can do about it. But maybe you can still give her a good time, and have a bit fun yourself by practising your 'Plan B' leads...?

 

[smiling28]

OK that is fine for beginners but what about a lady who has been going to a cross body class for about 12 months at least, who when you get her up for a dance goes side to side wandering off line willy nilly suddenly spinning herself back and forth in a ceroc style., and when you try to lead the simplest of moves tries to turn the most difficult and opposite way you are quite clearly leading . infact it would be crazy to turn the direction she does . and footwork . random steps per beat in any direction. .
so do you say anything in an encourageing but in a constructive manner , fear of upseting her . say nothing . and see her not get a dance , just leave it to her teacher to spot it and teach her to do it correctly.
I quite like this lady , as a person , and she is enthusiastic , . I would just like to say I am not a teacher and it has nothing really to do with me , and don't want to diss her teachers. dancing with her is not easy . in the nicest possable way.

Great replies nikka and flex as per usual!!!

Classes DOES NOT equal social dancing. ESPECIALLY when the moves are called out.

/start talking the talk

WARNING: Theoretical nature and REALLY trying to do this myself but I share for your benefit.

In martial arts, I and many hated going against beginners. Why? Because they were the hardest to fight. Very erratic. You could not know what they were going to do because THEY did not know what they were going to do!!!

Transferring that to dancing, I think you need to keep the following in mind, everytime I get frustrated:

• No matter how bad you feel the person is following, THE PERSON IS TRYING!!! THEY WANT THE DANCE TO BE GREAT. THEY ARE NOT AGAINST YOU (sometimes I feel like they are  but I remind myself they are not
• It is how can WE do it better not how can I or her do it better
• There are many right and wrong ways to dance with someone. The key to some of the right ways though is to have fun and enjoy yourself. Be flexible (eg. One dance, I stepped off time with a girl because she was stepping off time. SOOOO hard, as I wanted to step in time but it was not working. She had her own natural rhythm and was very set. I thought should I be ‘right’ or should WE HAVE FUN and a good experience…………..
• Safety is paramount! Make it safe for both
• I get REALLY frustrated with bad follows. LOL. Because I want to be the best lead, I REALLY get frustrated with myself for not being able to lead. It is SOOOO nice when a girl does every move you want at the lightest invitation YET it is a luxury to be relished not expected. Life alas is not always like that. So I get frustrated at these so called bad follows when in fact it is just because they are not doing what I want. Baby syndrome for me. I want, I want, I want!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• So, I try and remember that this girl is different. I start from scratch
o Basic hold. Are we holding each other properly? I.e proper tension? stepping in time? Following simple leads
o Open hold/guapea. Same thing. How are we stepping? Constant tension? Straightening arms?
o And so on………..

Build each part. Keep going until you find the area of your SHARED issue as a partnership. Then try and remedy that issue. As much as I hate to admit it but the more I have learnt the more I have realised was that my bad technique or limited knowledge either created, exacerbated or failed to remedy so called bad followers.

One of my main goals is to be able to dance with anyone anytime and have a GREAT TIME. So we should embrace those follows whom we struggle to dance with as they are the rubix cube to a million other more people to dance with on the planet!!!




/end talking the talk and now I shall try to walk the walk

 

[sweavo]

... what about a lady who has been going to a cross body class for about 12 months at least, who when you get her up for a dance goes side to side wandering off line willy nilly suddenly spinning herself back and forth in a ceroc style., and when you try to lead the simplest of moves tries to turn the most difficult and opposite way you are quite clearly leading . infact it would be crazy to turn the direction she does . and footwork . random steps per beat in any direction. .

The one and only time I have walked off the dance floor mid dance was a girl like this. I tried talking to her, asking her where she was from, she said something like Manchester despite a thick European accent, I tried toning it right down and leading the very simplest moves, still no connection, I tried breaking apart and resetting, in the end I was so mad with her that I was going to start leading really hard patterns really strongly out of spite. So I just walked away.

About 18 months later I saw her again in a class and didn't recognize her. But she recognized me... boy did I feel crappy when I realized :-/

If it's really hard work to dance with her then consider putting her on the DND list, it's better than getting mad and doing something rude like I did!

 

[sweavo]

... what about a lady who has been going to a cross body class for about 12 months at least, who when you get her up for a dance goes side to side wandering off line willy nilly suddenly spinning herself back and forth in a ceroc style., and when you try to lead the simplest of moves tries to turn the most difficult and opposite way you are quite clearly leading . infact it would be crazy to turn the direction she does . and footwork . random steps per beat in any direction. .

The one and only time I have walked off the dance floor mid dance was a girl like this. I tried talking to her, asking her where she was from, she said something like Manchester despite a thick European accent, I tried toning it right down and leading the very simplest moves, still no connection, I tried breaking apart and resetting, in the end I was so mad with her that I was going to start leading really hard patterns really strongly out of spite. So I just walked away.

About 18 months later I saw her again in a class and didn't recognize her. But she recognized me... boy did I feel crappy when I realized :-/

If it's really hard work to dance with her then consider putting her on the DND list, it's better than getting mad and doing something rude like I did!

The worst bit about this story is I now realize she was probably that way because she was nervous, and I probably knocked her confidence way down :-(

*goes to flay self*

To any teachers out there or any one . in a group class how much (if any ), time is spent on teaching how to lead and how to follow / read the lead, signals etc and the theory behind why we are doing this . not just moves but how to dance them for real with a stranger.

When I started dancing there were very few teachers who drew attention to the cause-and-effect of lead and follow. That's why I was very confident to start teaching, I knew that straight away I would be in the top 40% of teachers in the area. This was back in 2003, and I think people have upped their game in recent years.

Teachers could draw attention to the specific lead and follow in their choreography fairly easily, but the general concept/attitude of lead and follow is much more esoteric than the actual moves - you can show the moves just by doing them, but you can't show people how it feels unless you have time to dance with each person in the class. For me, more than 10 couples in a class makes this impractical. Add on to this that in any class above beginners you are going to have a mixture of levels and that it's hard(er than moves) to watch whether someone's got it or not, it's a lot more effort for the teacher with a much smaller visible result.

Personally, I'm dreaming of being able to run a class that doesn't even teach moves. I'd like to send my students to other teachers for repertoire, and just teach them the JOY inherent in dancing to the music and to each other. As you can probably tell from what I just wrote, I haven't got very far working out how to approach that in a structured way!

 

[smiling28]

... what about a lady who has been going to a cross body class for about 12 months at least, who when you get her up for a dance goes side to side wandering off line willy nilly suddenly spinning herself back and forth in a ceroc style., and when you try to lead the simplest of moves tries to turn the most difficult and opposite way you are quite clearly leading . infact it would be crazy to turn the direction she does . and footwork . random steps per beat in any direction. .

The one and only time I have walked off the dance floor mid dance was a girl like this. I tried talking to her, asking her where she was from, she said something like Manchester despite a thick European accent, I tried toning it right down and leading the very simplest moves, still no connection, I tried breaking apart and resetting, in the end I was so mad with her that I was going to start leading really hard patterns really strongly out of spite. So I just walked away.

About 18 months later I saw her again in a class and didn't recognize her. But she recognized me... boy did I feel crappy when I realized :-/

If it's really hard work to dance with her then consider putting her on the DND list, it's better than getting mad and doing something rude like I did!

The worst bit about this story is I now realize she was probably that way because she was nervous, and I probably knocked her confidence way down :-(

*goes to flay self*

To any teachers out there or any one . in a group class how much (if any ), time is spent on teaching how to lead and how to follow / read the lead, signals etc and the theory behind why we are doing this . not just moves but how to dance them for real with a stranger.

When I started dancing there were very few teachers who drew attention to the cause-and-effect of lead and follow. That's why I was very confident to start teaching, I knew that straight away I would be in the top 40% of teachers in the area. This was back in 2003, and I think people have upped their game in recent years.

Teachers could draw attention to the specific lead and follow in their choreography fairly easily, but the general concept/attitude of lead and follow is much more esoteric than the actual moves - you can show the moves just by doing them, but you can't show people how it feels unless you have time to dance with each person in the class. For me, more than 10 couples in a class makes this impractical. Add on to this that in any class above beginners you are going to have a mixture of levels and that it's hard(er than moves) to watch whether someone's got it or not, it's a lot more effort for the teacher with a much smaller visible result.

Personally, I'm dreaming of being able to run a class that doesn't even teach moves. I'd like to send my students to other teachers for repertoire, and just teach them the JOY inherent in dancing to the music and to each other. As you can probably tell from what I just wrote, I haven't got very far working out how to approach that in a structured way!

Just sign me up when you do

* I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN!!!

 

[terence]

Steve-- I know you will think I,m nuts -- but in ALL my groups, no matter what the genre, singles or couples-- whenever I introduce a new variation, basic or advanced-- I lead ( and many times, follow ) EVERY lady in the class ( just for 15/20secs. ).
Had a Salsa class last yr with 48 ladies ( 5 guys ) still stayed with that format ( have decided to buy skates !! )

It is a little time consuming, but the rapport I build, is very important for several reasons .

 

[terence]

.

Personally, I'm dreaming of being able to run a class that doesn't even teach moves. I'd like to send my students to other teachers for repertoire, and just teach them the JOY inherent in dancing to the music and to each other. As you can probably tell from what I just wrote, I haven't got very far working out how to approach that in a structured way![/quote]

This is exactly what" we " do, in our B/Room classes at the more advanced levels-- teaching primarily how to express and enhance specific,steps and or groups, with rhythm changes. lines and shapes , for e.g.

I still do this to a much lesser extent , in my beginners / Interm. classes .